Festool or not

[Paul Atwood]

I'm on the brink of spending more money than I could have ever imagined on a sander and DC, RO-150/CT22. Given that I am a devotee of hand planes (thanks to the grandpa I never met) and hate the idea of making dust out of beautiful wood, I much prefer shavings.

Alas, I foresee a lot of sanding in my future as I am installing end grain flooring in my kitchen and I think there is real potential to turn it into a business. Gloat on, the material for the floor was free, most of it came from my back yard (bigleaf maple,plum, cherry, apple, boxwood) with the exception of the 200 year old pacific madrone that I milled 18 years ago on the OP in Washington state. I'm having some fun with this floor!

So, before I go dropping the dollars on equipment that I know I will love (even while I resent forking over my money to a company that I know is seeing outrageous profit margins) can anyone offer me an alternative?

I'm convinced that Festool manufactures state of the art tool systems, BUT

1) Price fixing is illegal in most countries and yet they still seem to get away with it! Though I did read somewhere about legal action against them.

2) I'm okay (well, almost) with the price they are asking (demanding) for most of what they offer, but I really dislike the idea of disposable bags for several reasons: I'm a gardener and a composter and I know way too much about landfills so I'm not about to send bags full of dust to the big hole in the ground. I also have more than a little experience with manufacturing consumer products, so when I get to the re-useable bag for the CT22 and look at the price, I had a S___ fit. There is just no way that anybody is going to convince me that $170 is a fair price. It looks to me like they are trying to ensure a long term revenue stream from all those paper bags we'll be forced to buy. Is the re-useable bag an option with the sander? Or will I wind up replacing filters so often that it doesn't make sense?

3) I’ve done more than a little research and I just can’t find a viable alternative and I can’t believe it. I am absolutely amazed that they don’t seem to have any real competition, seems everybody else is so focussed on cordless that they just haven’t noticed - DUST is deadly. The Fein vacuums look good, but don't offer the system benefit (systainer).
And why is it that most of the mfr's offer some sort of box for their tools, but don't understand that you might actually need to transport that box (and many others) to the job site?

So, can anyone offer me an alternative?

I really like the image that a Festool system would offer when I arrive at someone’s home to install a floor, but I am reluctant to buy in as it is a long term and expensive commitment. I do wish that I could hold out for the new version of the RO-150, it is a beautiful example of Industrial Design, and has the plug-it and ergonomic advantages but I just can't wait for it - FestoolUSA says "in the next few months, no price yet" and the current package price of $670 is less painful than I expect the new one to be.

The pricing on discs (the biggest consumeable expense) is actually pretty good compared to the competition, surprising given that their disc format is proprietary.

BTW, I already made the other major investment required to make a business out of this - a Rikon 10-345 18” Bandsaw. I went way beyond due diligence on that decision. Expect a review soon with all the nitty-gritty, Good and Bad. No regret's, but I have had more issues than I should have.

Thanks in advance for your input, this is absolutely the best WW forum on the web.

Paul Atwood (WoodyP)
FoundWood Floors

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

My wife thinks their equipment is ugly. Se saw 'em close up at a show.
That said why are you considering a Festertool sander?
Is it their highlky regarded DC or something else?

I use two PC speedbloks which use any square cut/ripped paper I feed 'em. they are great tools.

If you are going to be doing a mountain of sanding I submit that the better course might be a quick and dirty downdraft table with a low cost HVAC blower and some HVAC style filters. Or just hook it to your DC system if you have that.

That way you won't have to bother with any sawdust bags or collection gadgets.

[Richard Wolf]

Welcome to the Creek.
I think you will find in the long run that the quality of Festool will outweigh the cost. I install railings and build stairs everyday. We are always on the jobsite. I wanted tools that look professional but more importantly stand up to the abuse my son and I dish out to tools. I was getting tired of replacing tools, even when I was trying to buy the best I could find. If you make money with your tools, you will not be sorry you spent the money on Festool.

Richard

[Michael Ballent]

First on the "price fixing" thing.... At least for up to now, all Festool purchases were shipped from Festool facilities to whatever location you told them to send them to. So you are buying straight from Festool, not WoodCraft, Uncle Bob or any other Festool ISA (Independant Sales Agent). So there cannot be any "price fixing" if you are buying from the sole supplier of a product.

Now on to sanding floors... do you really want to be on your hands and knees... There are systems out there that are designed to sand floors, so you will not have to be on your hands and knees.

Best of luck on your business. :D

[Rich Person]

I got into Festool because I hated shoving sheet goods through my little portable table saw. I had a little extra money at the time so I picked up the Rotex sander too. I now own the saw, 1400 router, Rotex sander, dust collector and MFT. Of all of these tools, I find the sander the most amazing.

I have yet to see any significant dust from my sanding (including 80 grit). I can't smell or detect any dust in the air and there doesn't seem to be any one the wood either, including stock removal mode. I did not expect this.

Dust is a big deal to me and I really hate breathing it. If you want a sander and don't want dust in your lungs, I would highly recommend one of the Rotex sanders.

[Paul Atwood]

Rich: Zero dust, on the jobsite, in my lungs, anywhere but the compost pile is the goal. I've already done enough damage to my lungs etc. I really hate the idea of starting a business that creates dust, but...opportunity is knocking.

Michael and Cliff: If you know of a floor sanding system that collects all the dust (or at least as much as the Festool system), please enlighten me! I've used more than a few floor sanders and every one of them filled the air and coated every surface with...DUST
I am considering a thickness sander with a DC to prep the material, but I need to use material as short as 1", probably not gonna happen.
Sanding and polishing after placing the material is a requirement. I'm already producing material that's +- .010 and better with the bandsaw, so given a flat subfloor I can start sanding with 50 or 60 grit.

I'm not especially fond of their trademark green, but it does appear that their sanders (with the "patented Jetstream principle") are the most effective at collecting dust. Please, someone correct me if I am wrong.
Since I don't at present have a wife and LOML lives 6k miles away, aesthetic decisions are up to me.

With regard to "price fixing", the acronym MSRP (Manufacturers suggested retail price) came into being because it is illegal in this country and many others for the manufacturer to dictate what price the consumer will pay for their product, sooner or later the law will catch up to Fester. Just wish I could wait until then.

Richard: Thanks for the vote of confidence, I don't doubt that I'll be satisfied with the quality of the tools.

Thanks for the input and keep it coming!

Woody

[Michael Ballent]

I am not in the flooring business, so I really do not know if such a system exists, but you are talking about many square feet of flooring on your hands and knees, with a 6" sander. I did a quick google search and found a portable cyclone that would fit inside a van which connects to a floor sander, edger, and buffer...

http://www.onlinefloorstore.com/store/product/?id=10001643

What ever you are saving your lungs from, the rest of your body may be paying the price... and I would expect your profits will be hurt, just from the amount of time it will take just to sand the floor... Festool makes some fantastic products (I own a few) but you have to look at the best tool for the job and a Festool sander is too small IMO to do what you are proposing. I could not imagine sanding the floor with a 6" sander for a 1500 sq ft home, much less the amount of time that would take to complete. Your competition will eat your lunch, even if you can get the lumber for free, labor costs will go through the roof.

[Jim Dailey]

Hi & welcome Paul,

The only alternative I know of to the Festool CT 22 E & the Festool RO 150 E is a Fein Turbo II & a Bosch 1250 DEVS. Their maybe others that would argue about this like the Fein 6" or Fein 8" but these are single "mode" sanders. The only two mode units at least in this country are the RO 150 E & the 1250 DEVS; one mode for aggressive fast material removal, and one mode for "sensitive" surfaces..... One of the WW magazines, can't remember who but I found an online article comparing 6" random orbital sanders, gave the Borsch 1250 DEVS the edge based on price, but the readers' choice was the Festool RO 150 E..........

I've have the Fein Turbo vacuum since before it was called the Turbo II and abused hell out of this sanding bottom paint off boats..... Great vacuum!!! I bought the 1250 DEVS & it's a beast... works fine but I've since got a RO 150 E coming.... so in a week or so I'll know which I like best at least for me.... I also have a Festool CT 22 E vacuum. It is (IMHO) the better all around vacuum then the Fein, however as you noted the down side is the bags.... I've been using the CT 22 E with the sanders & fine dust even though I have a HEPA filter for the Fein, and the Fein for course vacuuming or really dirty "stuff". I've lately had the Fein connected to a 7" 46lb Clarke floor edger with as aggressive as 20 grit... it keeps up nicely with virtually no dust in the air!!!!

Hope this helps,
jim

[Paul Atwood]

Thanks for the input Michael, that is a useful link and food for thought.

I'm not interested in competing with conventional flooring, I'm working on a niche market (green, sustainable, artsy etc..) and I have no intention of doing more than 5 or 10k square feet a year. I have a great set of knee pads , a bit of buddhist influence and memories (I'm still getting over it) of a catholic upbringing so I'm okay with kneeling.

I would prefer to keep my "kit" as light, compact, portable and cheap as possible (as well as minimizing dust, except in the bag), the Bona sanders look very similar to what I've used in the past - heavy (175 lbs.) and not very effective at capturing the fines - they make no claims regarding collection efficiency but will happily sell you a respirator. Not gonna happen.

I do appreciate the input though and I will continue researching the options.

regards,

Paul

[Dave Carson]

I have seen 1 advertisement for a floor refinishing company that claims "dust free". Unfortunately, I don't remember the name.

I imagine hand sanding a floor would be lots of fun...not!

Anyway, the RO150/3 and CT22 work great. It hurt spending the money. I expected to try it and return it in under 30 days. That didn't happen. It leaves a great finish and collects the dust like nobody's business.

Good luck.

Dave

[Paul Atwood]

Thanks for the reply Jim, can you tell me more about the Clark floor edger?
Sounds like it has an effective dust capture system built in.

regards,

Paul

[Tim Devery]

Ok I just had to jump in.
I am a pro floor sander, and I do use a Dust Containment system.
My is from Onedia, http://www.oneidavac.com/systems/ovs_1hp.htm
but there are a few more. My system has a cyclone that sits on the floor sander and edger, along with an exaust filter.
When I sand, I see NO airborn dust. I do not wear a mask, and I do not have to hang plastic.
As for floor sanding, first spend $15,000 minimum, on equipment, and a van to put it in. I figure I have $80,000 tied up in floor sanding.
Two vans, one for installation tools, one for refinishing tools, and I work by myself!
Today I just recieved my new festool RO 150 with $250 worth of paper, only to discover that the sander has an ovel dust port. I would like to use my Back pack vac or dustless system for the sander. I might just end up with the CT-mini.
This sander will be used to sand stair risers, and finish off treads after my edger knocks off the poly. I played with it a little tonight, hooked up to an old 1.5hp sears vac. Man that thing is smooth, I went down to 180 grit on a maple drawer. Very smooth.......
Paul, if you want to do this, I recomend you get a floor guy to do a sand only on your floors.
Watch him and learn

[Jim Dailey]

Hi Paul,

Sounds like Tim could answer just about any floor sanding question you could come up with based on alot of hard won experience!! But to answer your question about the Clarke edger mated to the Fein. It was a used eBay purchase (eBay is a "12 step" process.... 1st you have to admit you have a problem.....;) ) that came with a bag that I'm sure was someones shoe bag hanging off it...... I didn't even try it!!! So I started to look around for an adapter.... something to "fit" in the Clarke's hole that was flat on one side and would mate with my Fein's hose.... A grey electrical PVC fitting, a few minutes at the sanding center and a few wraps of Reg Green's #1 tool .... duct tape was all it took. Works great except the amp draw it to much to trigger thru the Fein. I have to have the Clark & the Fein on seperate circuits or I trip the breaker.

Hope this helps,
jim

[Dan Forman]

In another thread somewhere, a lot of folks said they reused the Festool paper CT bags up to 5 or 6 times without problems, that should ease the sting a little, and help out the compost pile too.

Dan

[Tim Devery]

Clark also sells a replacement dust port that is 2" OD
I have one that I took off my clark 7R Edger. E-mail me if you are interested

[John Lucas]

Paul,
I have the Rotex 150 and Rotex 125. The leter is the new ergonomical design. While it is nice, I still prefer the barrel grip of the 150. I say this to you so that you can buy the current 150 and save since it is at a close out price. I have a dedicated Festool mini-vac on it. Works great. The dust collection works so well that sanding disks do not clog up and can be used way longer than others. The Festool vacs are so well designed that the dust gets very compacted and the bad holds a lot. It is nice tobe able to remove the bad, cap it with the attacked cap and heave.
As to "price fixing", you dont know the conditions for MSRP. That applies to manufacturers who sell to dealers. Festool uses Independent Sales Reps who receive a commision and/or finders fee for sales. Even with the Woodcraft dealers, this is the case. As long as Festool polices the ISAs and makes sure they live to their contract (ie changing sales price), it isperfectly legal. As to the consumer, no you cant get a good deal by shopping around but you can get service. Today, dealers cant compete with the internet on the typical product. If they match the internet price, they lose money. If they don't they lose the sale. Festool sells a great product and a superb support team...you pay for the latter as part of the price. It is a good deal.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I'd rent a floor sander until you know it will be a business...much cheaper and much faster for a one time use.

If you wind up doing this for a living, you'll need to buy a floor sander and a DC system anyway. I've yet to see any hardwood finisher show up on the job with the Festool system.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Michael and Cliff: If you know of a floor sanding system that collects all the dust (or at least as much as the Festool system), please enlighten me! I've used more than a few floor sanders and every one of them filled the air and coated every surface with...DUST

Yah my method is to use a Carbon Filter respirator.
These may be useful they are supposed to be dustless floor sanders.
http://www.wisservac.com/systems.html
http://www.oneidavac.com/systems/ovs_1hp.htm
http://www.hardwood-floor-sanders.com/details.asp?EquipID=produstsystem




BUT - - - - Reading your post it sort of kind of pretty much seems like you will be doing all the sanding prior to installation??? Is that so? Will you also be finishing prior to installation?

If that's the case it's likely the best thing would be to get a high quality & wide roller sander with a power feed and precise height capability.

Hand finishing a whole floor with a hand sander - EEEEK. I have done that in situs with a 4" track sander and a PC speedblok. It was a miserable backbreaking experience but I couldn't get a commercial tool in the narrow hallway what with the boards running 90Deg to the length of the hall.

[John Stevens]

When discussing "price fixing", it's important to understand that if a firm like Festool has competitors (like DeWalt, Porter Cable, Milwaukee, Hitachi, Ryobi, etc), it can't increase it's profits by simply forcing its retailers to jack up prices.

Firms like Festool and its competitors experiment with setting prices so that the "marginal revenue" gained from selling an additional unit exceeds the "marginal cost" of producing it. To the extent that any of these competing firms increases the price of its product above the point where the marginal revenue equals the marginal cost for the firm, it loses sales and profit because other producers can offer a better "value per price." That's why claims that Festool's pricing policy is bad for consumers is questionable.

The laws against price fixing were adopted in an effort to help consumers, not hurt them. That's why these laws typically target monopolies or conspiracies among competing firms, and why the laws typically ignore pricing behavior by a single firm that lacks a monopoly. When we ask the government to step in and tell firms how much they can charge for their products in a competitive market, the result is that the firms have to cut back production...and consumers suffer as a result. Remember this the next time you hear voters or legislators talk about controlling the price of gasoline or other commodities.

The links below explain of why this is so.

How a firm controls its output to maximize profit in theory:
http://www.ingrimayne.com/econ/MakeProfit/OptimalOutput.html

How a firm controls output and sets prices in real life:
http://www.ingrimayne.com/econ/MakeProfit/RealFirms.html

How monopolies control output and set prices:
http://www.ingrimayne.com/econ/Monopoly/Monopoly.html

Why government-imposed limits on prices hurts consumers:
http://www.ingrimayne.com/econ/MakeProfit/Application.html
http://www.ingrimayne.com/econ/AllocatingRationing/PriceCeilings.html

[Dan Racette]

I think what we might be seeing, which I have seen in other fields is MAP minimum advertised pricing. In other words, to be allowed to sell the product, you will only advertise it at the MAP. If you don't, you won't be allowed to sell the product. Most places are allowed, but highly discouraged, to sell it at any lower unadvertised price they feel comfortable. usaully this means a direct cut in what is usally a pretty minimal profit margin on the big ticket items.

As a consumer, yes it bothers me a bit, but in some sort of way, it makes it more fair and we can choose whom we would like to buy from based on their quality of service, rather than just bottom line pricing.

Anyone is perfectly willing to poke holes in what I am saying!

d

[Bob Swenson]

Paul
Let me see if I understand this. You are going to go through the forest gathering wind fall, that would otherwise break down (euphemism for rot) and nourish the trees, and turn them into little end grain blocks that you will use to make Zen floors. OK,
You will love the Festool sanders.
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