Do purists use Miter Saws?

[Darren Vass]

I've watched several episodes of Wood Works with David Marks. I have never seen him use a miter saw whether compound, sliding or otherwise. He seems to do all his miter cuts and cross cuts on the table saw. Does anyone have any comments about this? Can one make cuts as good on the table saw as on the miter saw?

Darren

[Mark Singer]

The most accurate crosscuts are made with a sled on the cabinet saw. Miters with a miter sled... The sliding miter saw is great for rough sizing and joints that are not as critical... Check the cut first with a square on a scrap... I use them both... Final panels cuts for square are done on the sled...The problems with miter saws is the detents of 90...45 and other stops usually have a bit of free play and must be checked. The fence is short and built stations must be made in perfect alignment with the saw or they will alter the accuracy. There are things you can do to improve a mitersaws accuracy. The stop block for a 45 should be a 45 for a positive repeatable accurate cut.

[Mike Cutler]

You can do some very accurate, repetetive cuts on a Miter saw. The limitations however, are as Mark stated.
I can set mine up to do dead accurate 90's, but the 45 degree cut will be off because of the detent Mark referred to. You always have to measure the angle.
One more area of "slop" is the blade. I need to use a full kerf blade on mine, or the cut "potato chips" across the face. Thin Kerf and 12" blade just don't seem to work together, imho.

Once set up though, they can be a very valuable addition to a shop, especially if you are space limited.
My shop is 9' wide and 19' long. Trying to square a board on the tablesaw more that about 5' long is a real hassle for me. I rely on the mitersaw to pick up the slack for my space limitation, and augment the tablesaw.

[lou sansone]

for super accurate miters purists use the following 2 pieces of equipment. I have one of these and they make perfect miters


Lou

[Vaughn McMillan]

Lou, you've got all the cool toys. Heck, your bandsaw weighs more than my whole shop. :p

- Vaughn

[Andy London]

Back in the early 70's when I was learning WW, the old guy that was showing me the ropes always said it was better to be moving the tool than the wood, every time I see or hear a question like this, that is what comes to mind.

Yes a Cabinet saw with a miter sled can be just as accurate however it has it's limitations as well. I just finished a mirror frame for a client that is 60" X 28" with a 5" wide trim in Nogal, no way I would even consider trying it on a TS, I used my 12" Dewalt and the joints are perfect.

That being said I make hundreds of custom picture frames a year and never use the TS, all the joints are bang on using a 10" miter saw. When I did cabinetry full time, I would be lost without the miter saws, IMHO they are faster than a TS and if set up properly just as accurate on the small stuff.

[Per Swenson]

Morning,

I am a little cranky this morning so pardon the tone.

Purist smurist, As has been noted before its not the tool, its the operator.

The way you are most comfortable with, or whatever works for you.

Ask Mr. London and his dual mitre saw picture framing rig.

The little lion trimmer is fine for perfection.

Folks, its about time on any machine.

Spend years trimming houses day in day out and you will

get to the point you can see the difference between 45 and 45.01.

Don't knock mitre saws, mitre boxs and back saws or a hatchet for

that matter. Feel free to mock the finished product.

Per

[Bill Lewis]

get to the point you can see the difference between 45 and 45.01.Ain't that the truth! Plus level and plumb!

[Frank Pellow]

for super accurate miters purists use the following 2 pieces of equipment. I have one of these and they make perfect miters


Lou
I never cease to be amazed by your tools Lou! I now believe that you have a special (and large, of course :D ) tool for every woodworking task.

[rick fulton]

Darren -

Good question. As a ww novice I have had little problem with accuracy on my sliding miter saw. Plus my cuts are cleaner since the miter saw has a dedicated crosscut blade and my table saw is set up with a rip cit blade. Multipurpose TS blade don't seem to give as clean a cut. It seems painfully slow to swap out TS blades and set up the TS miter fence. One more plus for the miter saw is the ease of making small adjustments to "walk up" on an accurate cut; good visual access.

I'm interested in hearing more pro TS sled responses. It seems like a lot of work to build one, and most seem to limit visibility and have limited stock length options.

rick

[tod evans]

Morning,

Purist smurist, As has been noted before its not the tool, its the operator.

Folks, its about time on any machine.

Spend years trimming houses day in day out and you will

get to the point you can see the difference between 45 and 45.01.


Per

i don`t know how many feet of moulding i`ve chopped with a miter saw.....but i started on a 9" rockwell. personally i find them to be very accurate and use mine daily......02 tod

[Matt Meiser]

Any more, I just use mine for rough cuts. But that's partially because I need to either have the blade sharpened or replace it. I agree on the thin kerf blades too. I've also started using my EZSmart system for rough crosscuts when breaking stock down which is almost as easy as the miter saw but has a much larger capacity.

[lou sansone]

I never cease to be amazed by your tools Lou! I now believe that you have a special (and large, of course :D ) tool for every woodworking task.

I have the morso chopper and I am sure andy knows about them as well. The compound miter saws also are deadly accurate. Some folks perfer the chopper for picture framing and some like the moterized machines.

what does andy think

lou

[Scott Fernald]

Wrote a lengthy reply then the web ate it...sigh...

In short - I find my TS crosscut sled very useful for stock that is too wide for my DeWalt 12" CMS - like shelves or glued up door panel stock.

[Andy London]

I have the morso chopper and I am sure andy knows about them as well. The compound miter saws also are deadly accurate. Some folks perfer the chopper for picture framing and some like the moterized machines.

what does andy think

lou

In softwoods and the stock picture framing molding which is generally poplar or a variety in the cheaper, not true Mahagony, it will cut it even without a miter saw, perfect. This is required and necessary in sold moldings especially ones with the gold or silver.

In my case I make my own moldings in domestic and exotics, it would not work well in 60%+ of the moldings I make due to the hardness......I tried an industrial hydraulic unit out a few years back. It will work in these woods however if you only want to shave the joint, for this I simply made a jig and use the disc sander....same results at a fraction of the cost.

Andy

[Jim Becker]

I think that this is somewhat subjective as we all tend to find methods that work "best for us". I tend to do "critical" miter cuts on the table saw with a sled, but do use the miter saw sometimes, too. I could likely use the CMS more, but haven't had the time or inclination to "fine tune" the setup...so I use the sled(s).

[Tom Jones III]

Are we talking about the same thing here? I've got a Porter-Cable 3802 12" Compound Miter Saw like the one in the picture. No matter how much I work on fine tuning it, the saw never cuts even 90* as well as my TS. I'll setup the CMS as perfectly as I can, test it and it is pretty good. Then I'll make 4 or 5 cuts without changing it from 90* and it is just a little off.

I've got this saw setting on a shelf just below my lumber racks. I'll take rough lumber and cut it down to just oversize to make it eaier to use on the TS, jointer and planer. I can't think of any other use for it when making fine furniture. Certainly it would do well enough for making outdoor furniture, and it gets the job done for crown molding.

[Larry Fox]

I agree completely with Tom. I have the same saw (only with Delta colors on it). Our relationship had gotten to the point where it can be best described as love/hate. I love it for rough cuts - just as Tom and others have mentioned - but hate it for cuts that really matter as it just dosen't seem to hold a setting. I tried to get it setup and it holds for a few cuts but never quite gets there long term. For me, it is important that I be able to "trust" a tool (I realize trust is a strange word here). I trust my table saw but I do NOT trust my CMS - it gets used for rough cuts.

[Mike Circo]

I have a solution. What we need is a cross cut saw with heavier steel castings than a portable miter saw. Easier to manipulate large pieces of lumber across than a table saw sled. Will hold accurate settings. Runs quietly and powerfully with an induction motor. Can perform compound cuts and setup for repeatable production cutting.
.
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Gee, what shall we do?
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I've got it!
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I give you the answer....
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The Radial Arm Saw!!! :D

Got one, and wouldn't trade it for all the miter saws in the world.

[Alan Burhop]

My SCMS is dead on acurate every time. But I only use the detents to get me close to the angle. I then use the built in scale and test cuts to get the correct angle.

I used to have a RAS that I inherited from my FIL. It was never acurate. I just bought a new house and the guy left me a RAS that is about 2 years old. I am hoping to get around to testing it soon. If it is acurate I will use it.

I think that whatever works for you is the way to go.

[Keith Barkhau]

Tom,

I have the exact same saw and was having the same problems with getting repeatable accurate cuts. At least in my case the problem was not so much with the saw creeping in its detents (what I first thought), but with me being able to keep the board I was cutting flush with the fence. I built a longer extension table and my accuracy got somewhat better (although I still use the TS and a sled when it *really* matters).

[Doug Ketellapper]

I have had the same saw as Tom and Larry for a few years now, but with a Forrest blade. It was a bit fussy setting it up at first, but since then I've had no problems.... that is after I upgraded the blade. The orginal blade would flex and cause inaccurate cuts. With the new blade I find it to be quite accurate and repeatable.

Having said that, I also use a crosscut sled on my crappy table saw for various things. They're cheap and easy to make yourself. In fact, I used the crosscut sled for several years before I got the CMS. Each method has it's limitations, and so I use either depending on the situation.

Edit: Oh, and to answer your question: A purist would use a handsaw and a shooting board with a handplane. ;)

[Dan Racette]

Hey now, a true purist would use a hand saw, and shoot the miters on a shooting board!!!!!!

[Charles McKinley]

I'm amazed it took this long for someone to mention a shooting board. It is on my to build list. I also like my Makita ls 1013 CSMS and my Jointech smart miter sled on the TS.

[Steve Beadle]

Hey now, a true purist would use a hand saw, and shoot the miters on a shooting board!!!!!!

Aha! I kept reading down through this thread, waiting for somebody to make the suggestion! Doesn't really matter how you make the initial rough cut, just bring it to final dimension with a few strokes of a well-tuned plane on an accurately set up shooting board! I don't think there is a saw that can match the quality of cut made by a sharp handplane--nor can a saw match the repeatable accuracy of a shooting board.

[lou sansone]

Aha! I kept reading down through this thread, waiting for somebody to make the suggestion! Doesn't really matter how you make the initial rough cut, just bring it to final dimension with a few strokes of a well-tuned plane on an accurately set up shooting board! I don't think there is a saw that can match the quality of cut made by a sharp handplane--nor can a saw match the repeatable accuracy of a shooting board.
the surface from a chopper will match the hand plane
lou

[Don Baer]

I know a few cabinate installers and finsh customers who do high end work. They all use a CMS and do fine work like installing crown molding. I mean the natural finsh type where caulking is not an option. My DeWalt is just as accurate as my TS and quicker to set up. I do however keep it tuned just like my TS. If the board is less then 4 inches wide I use the CMS. I don't have a slider and have often wondered about the accuacy of them since they like a ROS have the saw suspended and could move.
I do know that I did have this problem when I used my brother ROS and that why I never got one.

[Steve Beadle]

the surface from a chopper will match the hand plane
lou
What IS a "chopper", Lou? Is that a saw, or a heavy cutting blade? Is it one of the two machines you pictured? The only choppers I'm familiar with are axes and Harley-Davidsons:)
Steve

[Gary Keedwell]

I find myself using my Dubby sled on my Unisaw more accurate and cleaner cut then my SCMS. IMAO

Gary K.:rolleyes:

[Craig Zettle]

When I worked in a framing shop we had a foot operated chopper and an electric one. I used to have to really jump on the manual one to get it through some woods, but the electric one was automatic and deadly. One day I had my index finger under the blade and sunk it about an eighth of an inch in before I stopped pushing with my foot. I was truely thankful for manually operated equipment that day.

[Doug Jones from Oregon]

As my business is primarily building frames I feel qualified to chime in here on this topic.

I have both a Makita 12" chop saw that I kept after testing about 6 different saws. Out of the box, 5 were no more accurate than throwing an axe at the cut. Key for a chop saw after getting one that was set up correctly from the factory (many have no real adjustment opportunities for the user) is to use a heavy plate, SHARP blade. I use Tensyru (sp?) blades on this saw, designed for chop saws.

My other saw in the arsenal is old iron, 1950's Sampson double mitre saw with 15" blades. Again, heavy plate and keep them SHARP. Very accurate and very fast. If I can find an operator willing to stand there long enough, we can cut 500-600 frames a day with no hesitation.

I also have Unisaws, Dubby boards, sliding sleds and such and I find them much slower to set up for a cut and certainly not as accurate. About all I use them for anymore is sheet goods and ripping solid materials.

Doug

[Ben Hobbs]

I use a sliding miter saw to cut miters and handplane them to near perfect fit. Many times when building furniture the joints aren't exactly 90 degrees so it is necessay to have to fit using hand tools in many circumstances. Hand tool skills many times are quicker than fiddling with the power tools. Ben

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I agree completely with Tom. I have the same saw (only with Delta colors on it). Our relationship had gotten to the point where it can be best described as love/hate. I love it for rough cuts - just as Tom and others have mentioned - but hate it for cuts that really matter as it just dosen't seem to hold a setting. I tried to get it setup and it holds for a few cuts but never quite gets there long term. For me, it is important that I be able to "trust" a tool (I realize trust is a strange word here). I trust my table saw but I do NOT trust my CMS - it gets used for rough cuts.

Larry, I've found the key is to check blade angle every time I change the miter from one position to the next. I think I need five saws, one for 90, and two each for 45 and 22.5:D

[lou sansone]

What IS a "chopper", Lou? Is that a saw, or a heavy cutting blade? Is it one of the two machines you pictured? The only choppers I'm familiar with are axes and Harley-Davidsons:)
Steve

the morso is the chopper

lou

[Vaughn McMillan]

Now that some of the pros have chimed in, I'll give my "Joe Garage" viewpoint. In my particular case, I have a cheap CMS and a good TS, and I can trust my results on the TS much more than the CMS. I do use the CMS for rough cutting long stock and have used it for some occasional 2x4 framing work, but my particular saw (a low-end Delta) isn't accurate or consistent enough for me to use for anything that needs accurate crosscuts. Granted, I've not needed to do accurate crosscuts yet on long stock, but with my current tools, I'd still likely find a way to to the cut on the TS instead of the CMS. If I had a good-quality SCMS I might operate differently, but so far I've not had enough need for an SCMS to justify the expense.

- Vaughn

[Jerry Olexa]

I use my CMS for many moulding miter cuts and agree, accuracy is not always perfect.There was A time I told other WWrs I would never own a MS because I could do all those cuts on my TS... But the beauty of the CMS is how easily you can adjust/correct..I generally make my angle cuts 1/16 inch fat and then dry fit. Its so easy to then recut and adjust for the extra 1 degree or whatever...IMHO, I find it convenient and easy to use and I also love my TS crosscut sled for accuracy esp on panels.

[Mark Riegsecker]

I've tried everything. Every corner fits great until I try to fit the fourth side.

I'm either going to stop at 3 sides or buy my lumber pre mitred:D