Floor tile Question: What is it?

[Bob Weisner]

Hi:

My house was built around 1870 and the kitchen floor we will be replacing. There is those cheap 12x12 self sticking floor tiles on the kitchen floor right now. Some of the floor tiles broke and part of the underlayment ripped up with the floor tiles. Underneath the plywood underlayment, there is another layer of floor tiles that are 8 1/2 x 8 1/2 squares. They are whiteish in color.

My question is : What are these 8 1/2" x 8 1/2" tile made out of? The 4 tiles that I can see are in suprisingly good shape.


Thanks,

[Don Baer]

I could be wrong but you may not want to know. If there asbestos then you could be opening up a whole world of trouble. Asbestos removal can be very expensive.

[John Branam]

Can you post pictures for us? Hard to tell what it is from your description.

[tod evans]

bob, don may be right......are they about 1/8 thick, tough but breakable, kind of "plastic" looking? if so they very well may be asbestos...02 tod

[Bob Weisner]

just took some pics. will post in a couple of minutes.

[Bob Weisner]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/coyotehunter_1932/P0005055.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/coyotehunter_1932/P0005054.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/coyotehunter_1932/P0005053.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/coyotehunter_1932/P0005052.jpg

[tod evans]

bob, being as they`re not split from being nailed through it`s unlikely they`re asbestos.....02 tod

[Bob Weisner]

Now how did my dog get into the picture??:o

[Brian Parker]

Slate??? Its just a thought but when I was at Pitt the Cathedral of Learning had thick slate flooring in the main level.

They could also be asphalt tile. Both are quite 'Durable' as I call it. When I say that it means that they last a long time and ppl replace em cuz they go outa style before they start breaking up...most of the time ;) just my two cents

[Bill Lewis]

Actually, even looking at pictures of the tiles won't tell anyone that there is asbestos in them. Unless you are taking pictures with a microscope. In all likelyhood, they do contain asbestos.

I do not know the laws regarding the removal of products that contain asbestos, though I suspect there is federal state and/or local regulations regarding it. You may be required to have a licensed abatement contractor perform the removal, and then again, you may not.

Personally, I don't hold in high regard the abatement procedures performed for floor tiles that contain asbestos, but they are probably good for contractors who handle this stuff everyday. The abatement process was put in place to protect these guys. It's my opinion that in most cases floor tiles have a very low risk of becoming frangible, contaminating the area and introducing an exposure hazard. Unlike asbestos pipe insulation, tiles contained asbestos to a much lower degree. It's a bit of a misnomer to call them "asbestos tiles" as the asbestos was only used in conjuction with other materials to add strength.

The simplest and cheapest method of dealing with these tiles is through encapsulation, e.g. put another floor over top of them.

Edit: Ok, after seeing the pictures, and reading some of the comments, I still say that there's no way to tell unless you have them tested. Also, linoleum, and asphalt tiles could also have contained asbestos. As I said before, it was an ingredient, not the constituent material.

Nice dog pic!

[Mark Rios]

From what I've gathered from the old timers through the years is that Lino, REAL linoleum, tiles used to contain "some" asbestos. Asbestos was put into everything (not really but alot of stuff) because they thought it was a magic ingredient or something. They liked it for everything.

However, according to some of my recent experiences here in California, the only worry about asbestos is if it's airborn. As long as it stays encapsulated in something it doesn't do anything.I had a lot with a 60 year old duplex on it that I had to remove. I wanted to let the fire department use it for training and finally burn it. Well, in looking into getting permits for the burn, the Air Quality Control Board said that I could but that I would have to have an inspection for asbestos. I knew that it did have asbestos flues, two in each unit, and lino floors so I asked if I had to dispose of those in any special way. Turns out that I could take everything to the dump and just dispose of the debris that way but I would have to pay a $7500 inspection and testing fee before I burned. So, the fire dept. trained but didn't burn and everything went to the dump when everyone was done playing.

I double checked before I actually hauled the debris away and was told again that the concern with any products that contained asbestos was if any dust from those suspect materials got to be airborn. Other than that, it's very stable.

On another old house that was rehabbed, it too had lino tile floors (with a really neato pattern) After checking, we were told that we could leave the old floor down and lay a new subfloor over it or wear respirators (not just dust masks) and pull the floor up and put it into the dumpster.

So, I gather that you would only have to worry about your floor if you plan on putting it into the blender or wood chipper or someplace like that. Here in CA anyway. hth

[Don Baer]

Ok I guess I need to elaborate on what I said. First of all I work with remediation companies and environment engineering companies daily. Although I don't remove esbestos I do provide monitoring equiptment so those who do can do it safely. There are two problems with asbestos removal in floors like this if they contain asbestos.

A. Asbestos is a known carcinigine
B. asbestos dust is usualy between 6-8 microns in size so it will go directly into your lungs if inhailed.

For these reason folks who do the remediation need to wear protective clothing (read level A suits) and they need to use breathing protection. Furthermore while they are working the area must be isolated so the particles can be isolated and then they use huge Negetive are machines with filters to trap all airborn particles. Lastly they need to monitor the exterier to ensure nothing is escaping. All of this is expensive.

The other problem is disposal of the material once it has been removed. There are heavy fines for dumping that stuff in a landfill.

Thats why I said "you may not want to know"

Like Bill said If it were me I'd seal it over and just put your new floor on top and you'll never have a problem.

[Bob Weisner]

Thanks for all the replys!

I have the new ceramic tile to put down for a new floor. Should I rip up the cheap 12x12 tiles that are on top of the old underlayment and then put the ceramic tiles down, or should I rip up the old wood underlayment too?

Thanks,

[tod evans]

bob, don`t lay ceramic tile on plywood, you should install concrete board or the new plastic barrier that isolates the tile, i don`t remember the name of the product? either way floor height will be the determining factor as to what goes or stays. for 5/16 tile board, thinset and tile figure around 3/4 inch in thickness then remove enough flooring to bring your new floor flush with the adjacent rooms...02 tod

[Mark Rios]

Don, I see that you are here in CA (some of the time anyway:D ) from your personal info so let me ask you, if I may. So how come the San Juaquin Air Quaility Control people told me twice that I could put the floor material in the dumpster? Could you tell me who I might talk to up in this area, then? I was referred to the SJAQC people by the fire department so I thought that they would be an authority.

[Don Baer]

Mark for more information then you want to know about the subject you can look up 29 CFR 195 on the OSHA web site but in terms of disposal here is the excert.


1915.1001(g)(1)(iii)
Prompt clean-up and disposal of wastes and debris contaminated with asbestos in leak-tight containers except in roofing operations, where the procedures specified in paragraph (g)(8)(ii) of this section apply.


If you want to open the can of worms I would contact CalOSHA



<!-- 1915.1001(g)(2) -->

[Mark Rios]

Mark for more information then you want to know about the subject you can look up 29 CFR 195 on the OSHA web site but in terms of disposal here is the excert.


1915.1001(g)(1)(iii)
Prompt clean-up and disposal of wastes and debris contaminated with asbestos in leak-tight containers except in roofing operations, where the procedures specified in paragraph (g)(8)(ii) of this section apply.


If you want to open the can of worms I would contact CalOSHA



<!-- 1915.1001(g)(2) -->


No, I'm not looking to find any trouble (I get into enough already). I'm just disappointed that I was given wrong info from an agency that I would have thought was an authority. I like to follow the rules and codes and that's why I checked with whomever the fire department said to check with. Apparently then, according to the OSHA reference, one can just leave it in place and floor over it though, correct? Thanks for the reference.

[Cecil Arnold]

I don't know what part of the country you are in Bob, but the age of the oldest tiles is something I found significant. The modern asbestos industry didn't start until about 1866, 4 years before you think those tiles were laid. If that is the case, and I'm basing the date on a text I used to teach out of, then it is entirely possible that the tiles do not have asbestos, since that material finding its way into the flooring industry that soon would seem unlikely.

[Jerry Strojny]

My two cents worth would be to LEAVE THE OLD STUFF ALONE. Remove the 12x12 tile and the old underlayment that is over the 8x8 tiles. Put the 1/4" cement board (aka Durock) over the 8x8 tiles and then your new ceramic tiles.
My wife and I just finished our kitchen this last summer and found 3 old layers of flooring. Our original flooring was cork from 1940. It had a cool a cool Frank Lloyd Wright type design to it. Anyway, I would just avoid tearing into it. You only add a little over 1/2" to the height with the cement board and tile. (I am assuming about 1/4" for the tile thickness.)

[Jake Helmboldt]

This thread has some really bad and misleading information, while also having some good.

1. I doubt the tiles date to the origin of the house
2. Looking at them it is impossible to tell if they contain asbestos. They won't have visible fibers as someone said, and nailing won't neccesarily cause them to split
3. I agree that there is a good chance they contain asbestos
4. you can take/send a chunk to a lab for testing and it won't cost that much (less than $100 for tile and mastic to be analyzed)
5. The concern is indeed releasing the fibers which occurs when the tile splits. However, there are a lot of different kinds of asbestos and many different manners in which it was incorporated into the product. In the case of floor tiles, often (not always) it is not friable, meaning essentially the fibers are not easily released, and some kinds of asbestos are more harmful than others. (as an FYI, asbestos is a mineral that is mined and is a fibrous material)
6. Disposal can be done in a landfill in most cases, though California is notoriously overbearing on these types of issues. You may well be able to dispose of them since your job is small. That is the case here in VA.
7. abatement is very expensive, but for a small job with non-friable asbestos you could do it yourself if you take the right precautions (tyvek suit, respirator, negative air setup) and they often come up w/ a putty knife and hairdryer or low heat gun.
8. The other option is to cut up the whole floor in large pieces and take it out as a unit and lay new subflooring. You still need to use proper precautions and create as little dust as possible (circular saw bad).
9. put your floor over it. Problem with that is the thickness, especially if you use Durock or Hardi board.

I worked in an enviro lab for 5+ years. Lead and asbestos were our bread and butter. Consult with a lab and/or local abatement company and find out what is legal. When I was considering doing the same thing one of the abatement co.s that used our lab told me it would be doable (and suggested such due to cost for a small job) myself in the manner I mentioned and dispose in sealed bags (wrapped in poly, double heavy yard-waste bags, sealed w/ duct tape).

Jake

[George Kretschmann]

You can ask questions here....http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/index.php?

I just did the tile thing and these guys here helped me alot. My .o2 worth.

[Dick James]

bob, don`t lay ceramic tile on plywood, you should install concrete board or the new plastic barrier that isolates the tile, i don`t remember the name of the product? either way floor height will be the determining factor as to what goes or stays. for 5/16 tile board, thinset and tile figure around 3/4 inch in thickness then remove enough flooring to bring your new floor flush with the adjacent rooms...02 tod

to look out for is,don't make the floor so high that the dishwasher gets locked in.That could be a problem down the road when it needs replacing.

[Peter Lyon]

You cannot tell if floor (or any other type for that matter) tiles have asbestos just by looking at them -- unless you happen to be looking through a PLM (high tech microscope):p . Also, for what its worth, what makes you sure that the sheet vinyl that's already damaged (or even more likely yet, the mastic that holds down the sheet vinyl) doesn't also contain asbestos?

Legally speaking, you've got two choices at this point -- #1 treat it as asbestos (which anyone can do) or #2 have a certified asbestos bldg. inspector determine that it isn't asbestos containing material (ACM). Only a certified inspector can legally make the claim that it isn't ACM. Typically this requires taking a sample and having it analyzed although this can be got around in certain circumstances (not yours).

FWIW, I was a cert. inspector until December of 2005.

[Corvin Alstot]

Good looking dog.
Looks like he is tired of looking at your old floor.

[fred woltersdorf]

check out the john bridge tile forum.very knowledgeable folks and friendly.http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1

[Bill Lewis]

I have the new ceramic tile to put down for a new floor. Should I rip up the cheap 12x12 tiles that are on top of the old underlayment and then put the ceramic tiles down, or should I rip up the old wood underlayment too?
Having done a fair amount of tile work, I'd recomend ripping up the the old underlayment, and leave the suspect tiles alone.
Use a mastic or thinset morter to adhere a 1/4" cementatious unlayment (durock, hardibacker, wonderboard) to the existing floor, also use the special screws made for this. Then tile over the new underlayment.
Make appropriate transition pieces (thresholds) to compensate for any differnce in floor heights at doors.

[Joe Pelonio]

I had a next door neighbor in CA whose house was sided with asbestos. He was advidsed to cover it with aluminum or plastic siding, which he did.

Unfortunately he would forever after be required by state real estate law todisclose the asbestos upon sale. Though it's contained and harmless now people could be afraid to buy since any repair or remodel involving an outside wall is going to be costly. Ignorance is bliss in this case, go over it and you can honestly say you never knew whether it was asbestos or not.