Help!!! Mid-life Crisis to Woodwork or Not to Woodwork

[Ben Roman]

Hello Again,

I have been a member of this board a short time and each post has lead me to a great variety of advise and I need help again. I am 36 years old and I feel like my life is about to get turned upside down again. I have been in the computer industry for 18 years now and have done it all, owned 2 companies, been in every position more than once, made lots of money, made little money, been broke, and been well off. I have been thinking of building custom homes or buying a cabinet business or something like that. I am still very new to woodworking and my enthusiasm is very high but I want to make a change career wise regardless of income and or status, I just want to do this because I enjoy it.

Dazed and Confused,
<O:p></O:p>
Ben Roman :confused:

[Tyler Howell]

Excuse me I'm feeling ill!!!
Does she have a sister:confused:

[Cecil Arnold]

Ben, I really don't want this to sound negative, however the really good combo machine buys come from cab. and furniture businesses that have gone bust. For every Bob Perry, or David Weekly, there are dozens of 5 at a time builders who have been caught out in a housing bubble. Don't you remember Austin in the early 90's?

Having said that, I think there are a number of opportunities and innovative ideas that could be exploited by good products and well focused marketing. I think you might want to look at what CarveWright is doing as an example, and I'm sure there are others. I purposed an idea on a long deleted thread I think would be a winner, but like all things there were opposing attitudes. Would be happy to discuss it with you.

In the long run you will probably do better in IT, especially when it comes to family security, but then there is always that temptation to take a chance.

[Mark Singer]

Excuse me I'm feeling ill!!!
Does she have a sister:confused:

Tyler....I like that!:rolleyes:

[Tom Spallone]

Being in the computer business myself, my two cents is:

TAKE YOUR PLANE AND RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN AWAY FROM ANYTHING THAT REQUIRES UPGRADING EVERY 3 MONTHS!!!!!!!

Want a partner?

[Ben Roman]

Thanks Tom Thats the way I feel.. After Surviving in the IT industry this long anything is possible Right !! Thanks for the positive outlook

Ben

[Bill Simmeth]

Dazed and Confused
Wow! What a problem to have!!

First, get it out of your head that 36 is "mid-life"!!

Second, you mention custom homes or a cabinet shop specifically. They are two totally different animals. What you (as the owner/operator) do everyday in each of those businesses is completely different. Building custom homes involves orchestrating lots of players (permitting, zoning, subs, etc). Cabinet shops usually only have a couple/few hired hands and you're doing a lot of the work yourself. However, what they share is that both of these businesses are learned, not bought into, IMHO.

Sounds like you've had lots of varied experiences so far. I'd think through all of those and determine when you were happiest/most energized. Was it when you were managing others? Or when you worked alone on a project? Translate that into a job related to wood and develop a business plan around that.

Good luck!

[Ben Roman]

Thanks for the Advise Bill, I would have to say that when I managed my own companies I was happiest. Building them from nothing into substancial self sustained entities offered alot of satisfaction !! Also it offered me great satisfaction being a employer offering jobs to people.

Ben

[Peter Gregory]

I rarely post here and I hope this isn't an intrusion. I have started a few software companies myself and have done pretty well. Let me comment about accepting this money and the chances of success.

You MIL from your description here can't lose all of this money and survive can she? No matter what, buying, starting, or running a business of any sort is high risk. Are you ready to BK your MIL, and put huge pressure on your marriage when things start to go badly in your business? I don't think I would go there.

Let's discuss for just a second the economics of any business involving wood here in the US... right, there isn't much money there. The profit margins are way lower than technology companies. Barrier to entry by competitors is nonexistent. There are lots of people who have the skills, equipment, and drive who are going to come and try to eat your lunch by cutting prices. Ever notice how successful software people are buying nice custom furniture for their offices and successful wood business people are wearing tee-shirts, driving old trucks and working really, really hard? --- And then there is China. You understand that they are talking the low-end and driving prices down in all goods of this kind? Where the economics weren't terrible in wood products 10 years ago, China might be enough to kill you without anything else going wrong.

Don't underestimate how much people have been doing woodworking their whole lives know that we don't know, the same way that we know more about computers. I have a buddy who owns a custom cabinet shop and several related side business, it is just scary how much he knows that I don't. From how to lay brick, to using straps to hold a load on a truck bed, to economical design of cabinets. It doesn't matter if you are smarter in most every way, a lifetime of experience is powerful stuff. I would bankrupt his business faster than he would running my current dog.

Once I took a couple of years off from work and built furniture. Running a software company is way more fun to me. There aren't enough hassles in a shop for my taste. :o Now I build furniture for fun a few hours a week.

Hope this gives you some ideas of what can go wrong. Hopefully it will not stop you from pursuing your dream (is doing a wood business your dream?). Maybe you should go work in a shop for a year and see if you like it? Lot cheaper to learn on someone Else's nickle.

Good luck whatever you decide,
Peter

[Steve Ash]

Ben, this is not meant in a nasty way...but what expierience do you have building custom homes? It isn't something that you just can jump into on a whim. I've been building custom homes for 16 years www.steveashbuilder.com (http://www.steveashbuilder.com) and I often see people that one day want to be a builder (of course Michigan pretty much started giving away builders licenses about 10 years ago) and don't have a clue what they are doing. And shortly they are out of the business. Don't get me wrong, if that is what you choose to do, good luck and I'll give some advice if you ask for it, but building a home for someone is more than likely the biggest expense of their lives...and it needs to be darned near as perfect as it can be. It takes years of working for someone to learn this profession.

Best of luck in what you do Ben.

[Chris Dodge]

Ben,
I am in a similar position except without the MIL with lots of money. I have made a six figure income for about ten years and have tolerated the CEO and the politics of the work place but have not been real happy. I haven't been miserable either though. I have pondered off and on about going into business for myself but have yet to really take the plunge.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

What I did was start my custom furniture and cabinet business as a second job. I work a couple of nights a week and all day Saturday. I tell my customers up front what my situation is and that it will take longer to get their cabinet or furniture if they go through me since I don't do it every day. None has dropped me yet. I now get the security of my good job and the satisfaction of building cabinets and furniture for others. I am learning about what it takes to make my business successful and one day, a few years from now, I hope to go full time into woodworking. But there are many things yet to learn before I take that plunge. One of those is how to price my work. I did not make very much money on my first few projects because I did not price them correctly. I have learned how to charge my customers so that I make money but don't scare everyone away. There are some that you want to scare away though. I have learned which customers to keep and which ones I don't want to do business with.
<O:p</O:p

I started off by posting an add on Craigslist.com. That got me about four jobs immediately. I then created a website and have had a steady stream of business since then. I have had as many as eight jobs at one time but never fewer than three jobs at any time.

<O:p</O:p
If I were to give you any advice I would say, make sure you include your wife on every decision you make. It is imperative that you work as a team to make a decision that will affect both of you for a long time. That way, if you succeed you wife can have the satisfaction of knowing she was a part of it. If you fail then she can't blame you.:p

[Michael Ballent]

Working in the IT side of the world as well, I can see the temptation to move into WW fulltime. But I would not want to get into it with a family member's money. It's just me, but family and financing generally do not mix well. If your MIL is a concerned about loosing all $600k she may drive you nuts on any decision you make. Unless she got a whole lot more money and $600k is not a lot of money for her... Custom cabinets would be easier to deal with, but if you do not have a lot of WW experience you will be at the mercy of your knowledge and the people that you hire. At a minimum consider working for an existing cabinet shop and see what really goes on int there. Of course you may be just sweeping floors before they let you on any equipment, and then you may end up at a tablesaw for 8 hours ripping plywood (depending on the size of the shop) The larger shops typically have a person at a station and the work moves along to various stations, so the experience you need to get will take time. People willing to drop $20K + on cabinet will expect a lot from you and you may not be able to provide it... and then there are the guys who have been doing this forever and have developed tricks to speed up production (thus lower costs) and undercut your bid. Buyers backout (it's happened to me) and you have wasted time ($$$) following the lead. It's a very tough business, unless you can shoot for the very high end and that is where every guy is gunning for too.

Best of luck on whatever you decide.

[Mike Cutler]

Ben.

Go verryyyy, verrryyy slow on this decision.

In my situaltion there is only my wife and I. If I were to have to go through a rough patch, well we could eat alot of mac and cheese, and top ramen. I could not personally make thet decision for someone else.

While I believe that anyone can be successful, if they are willing to work, and suffer enough. I would pass on this one, and begin a slower approach to developing a business of this type. No way I could risk my MIL's financial future and stability. I'm sorry for that answer.

A long time ago I was given the advice that "friends don't write friends checks, and never borrow money from family" It's worked for me for 47 years.

Good luck with whatever your decision may be.

[Dave Falkenstein]

I worked in IT all of my career. When I got sick of the corporate rat race, I went into the recruiting business (headhunter) and worked for myself, but specializing in what I knew. My advice to you echoes some of what has been said:

1. Be very careful with your MIL's money - it sounds like she needs it to live in her retirement. Investments as we grow older tend to be far more conservative and focused on capital preservation with modest growth.

2. Go to work for someone in the business you choose to try. Learn the business first. If you find you like it and that you can make money at it, then go into it for yourself. Perhaps you can work your way into a partnership or maybe buy the business at a future date with your MIL's money as a start.

3. If your MIL has $600K for you, and apparently more than that for herself, she has more than enough to give to a trusted money manager to look after it for her. Do her a favor and look around for someone that can manage her money wisely. I would focus on a small money management company that works on a fee basis, and is associated with a large brokerage company to process their transactions and keep the books.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

There are people who do fine in the cabinetry / furniture biz - but it doesn't sound like an "investment quality" move using someone elses' money. It's all risk and no certainties.

Thank her, and Take $20-Grand on a 0% interest loan to buy a dream shop, set up in a garage, and see if you can parlay that into any income at all. Meanwhile, find a really good investment counselor for your MIL. That money should be invested in things like Bonds with no more than 20% in other investment securities.

Meanwhile, don't quit your day job. You are already good at it and there's no reason to toss a lifetime's work and effort.

[John Miliunas]

Ben, take this as an opinion and for what it's worth. You obviously know IT and have been able to make it work for you. You also state that you enjoy woodworking. Do you really want to take something you enjoy and make work out of it??? :confused: Yes, I realize many have done so and are completely happy with their decision while making either, lots of money or very little money doing it. Others have tried, failed and gone back to what they knew best. Still others made a big enough commitment to doing WW full-time and now do so because they have little choice but, may not necessarily enjoy it any longer. :( Just a few points to think about... Regardless, best of luck to you with any decision you make!!!:) :cool:

[Brandon Shew]

Ben -

Although I don't have any experience earning a living at woodworking I would say that running a woodworking business is like most other businesses when you get into the large scale production end. Unless you put someone else in charge then you'll end up with less woodworking time and more management BS and chances are you will probably not enjoy it as much.

To me - running a caninet shop isn't my dream choice of WW careers. You're going cutthroat against all the big box stores and other cabinet shops. Nice custom work will command more of a premium, but is also more labor intensive and you're still in competition. My dream WW job would be as a studio furniture maker. You have more freedom to explore your creative side and with less direct competition your pricing isn't always in question.

If I was given $600K I would sell my house, pay off any other debt and invest the rest. I'd then go study for a couple of years under some quality furniture makers (living meagerly off some of the $600K in the process). I'd meet as many people in the industry and make as many contacts as possible (art galleries, dealers, etc.). (My dream would be to work under David Savage for a year in Shebbear England).

Once I was confident that my skills and design ability were on par with other quality makers, I would then set up shop (home studio) near some major metropolitan area with a large potential customer base for studio furniture and then I'd have a go at it.

You'd need to get a small storefront gallery on your own (or with other artists in the area to help cover the costs). I'd probably focus on creating 10-20 designs that you could produce relatively easily for an initial stock/floor display so people can get a sense of what you are all about. Donate a few pieces to high profile charity auctions to get your name out there. Expand your portfolio as you go, add commissions and spec orders where possible, employ a helper once you get to that point, etc...

One can dream, but turning that dream into a reality is a completely different thing. Decide what you really want to do and plan it from there.

[Tom Araya]

She has promised me 600k to fund the new venture

I would do something to make money and do your passionate
hobby at your leisure in your home.

I'd invest in real estate flipping. Real estate is an easy money
scenario with little risk if you scope out the proper areas
to buy. Buy the fixer-upper home, spend some time fixing it
and sell it for profit and either pay the tax or wait the 2 year
period - live in it - and take the tax exemption which is $250k
or $500k married, then repeat. ie, you flipped a house for
$500k profit, $500k is tax free. yippie! Owning a real
business is just too much drama. Since you are skilled with
tools and wood, fixing the run down house would be easier
as you can do much of the labor and just hire the rest of the folks for odd jobs.

There are parts of the country where home prices are going
nuts. Where I live, our home went up $200k in just 2 years,
so the trick is to scope out the areas that are hot and jump in
the fire.

[Ian Barley]

I can't see whether your MIL's money is a gift or an investment. If its a gift then be very grateful and do what you want with the money. if its an investment don't invest it in woodworking unless you are buying somebody elses already profitable business.

It is tough to make a living working wood. It must be even tougher to make two livings making wood and that is what the $600K investment would be expecting. Ask any of the guys on here who do making a living "on the tools" when they last upgraded their Porsche?

If you wanna do it - do it. Don't get bound into somebody elses mone though.

[Tom Jones III]

Lots of good advice already from very qualified people. My advice, if you do it, don't do it with MIL's money unless it is a gift free and clear with no expectations from MIL.

[Julio Navarro]

You can take a fraction of that money and buy the machines you need to do WW as a hobby till you feel confident enough to do it as a business. WW isnt something you wake up one day doing well. It takes sometimes a lifetime to become a craftsman let alone make money at it. Some are more talented than others and then there are those of us who take much longer to learn to make a dovetail joint by hand.

Take the time to discover just how long it will take for you to learn to make a dovetail joint by hand then see if you enjoyed it then think about doing it for money.

Having the pressure of a business demand, an MIL expecting results (I am sure she is a very nice MIL) can sour a love for anything. Its like true love: You dont find the love of your life by looking to get married.

[George Summers]

I have not been in the IT business nor the cabinet business so I speak from a no-knowledge viewpoint. Being retired and considering opening some type of business, preferably woodworking related, I have come to the conclusion that, to use real estate as an anology - location, location, location, look for niche, niche, niche. There are a whole bunch of cabinet shops out there competeing with each other. I am still trying to find that niche where I can be unique and offer something that no one else, ar at least very few, is offering and still be something that people (read customers) will want and will buy. I haven't found it yet but I'm still looking.

I have a friend that was a painter for many years. In our area there are many many old homes (circa mid 1800's) that he was painting. More and more he had his customers asking about stripping of doors and other archetecual (sp) features. He bought a stripping set-up and set up shop in an old country store (available a dime a dozen in this area) and has started doing a good business in archetecual millwork refinishing. Not furniture because he doesn't want to get into that antique ruin or not to ruin the value of the piece mill, but doors, moldings, stair rails/bannesters etc. A niche market that no one else was doing within 60-100 miles. We are about 50 miles from Raleigh and he is starting to get calls from there.

George

[Mike Henderson]

It depends on what you want out of life. Unless you are unusually successful, you won't get rich doing woodworking related work - you can make a lot more money in the high tech business.

The reason is barriers to entry. While it takes work and effort to learn woodworking, and a lot of organizational ability to run a business, it's something that any motivated person can do. Most of the things we'd describe as "high tech" require an advanced education, as well as a very high capacity for work, so there's less competition.

But whatever you decide, you shouldn't gamble with a relative's money. While I'm sure you'll do your best to make the business a success, failure is a real possibility. Think through how a business failure will affect relations within your family - but the best approach is to just not get in the situation where you could lose a relative's money.

Good luck, whichever way you decide to go.

Mike

[Ben Roman]

Awesome advise George Thanks

[tod evans]

ben, i have no experience in the computer field but do have quite a few years in both furniture making and the building trades. at 36 you`re still a pup in either of these fields, that is if you had been working them full time since you got out of school! please don`t take offence at my comment, i`m being honest.....both trades are of the nature that over the course of a lifetime you may become proficient at most aspects and this doesn`t include the business side of either vocation..
it`s up to you as to how or if you spend your families money but i would advise at the very least doing demographics and speaking to local "old timers" who are or have been involved in the trades to get their input as to the viability of a new business in your area.
there`s a definate shortage of craftsmen in this country at the present but this country has a walmart attitude by and large so it`s really hard for a craftsman to earn a living in the trades.......only my .02 tod

[Dan Forman]

No experience in either industry, but from everything I hear this is not the time to get into the housing market, especially for the long term. By all accounts, the bottom is ready to fall out within the next few years. Do some very careful reading on this.

Dan

[Joe Unni]

Ben,

I'll have to echo what Cliff and Julio have described. If your MIL would like you to pursue your dream I think it's completely do-able with a very small loan from her. From it, build your dream shop and take what you already know about business and build one...part time. All while learning and growing as a woodworker. Then when you get so busy that you can't keep up, have this discussion again with yourself and then decide to make the leap or not...with your money.

In this case everyone wins.

You get to do what you love.
MIL gets to see SIL do what he loves.
MIL's money is not tied up in a huge risk. Your loan pay down will help ensure this.
You get to do what you love.
Your income remains intact - the WW money will be gravy.
Your wife will rest easy that there is income.
Relationships will not be in danger.
You get to do what you love.

I too came from the IT world and was forced into a decision. I decided to jump in with both feet. It's been a challenge, but a decision I do not regret one bit. Some of the challenge has been that my wife (the bookkeeper) really struggled(s) with the money thing (see above comment). But as I get busier and busier that struggle wains. Remember, if momma's happy - everyone's happy.

Others have talked about family and money. I also know a bit about this. It gets very messy and can destroy relationships (also see above). With out going into the details, it happened to me.

Bottom line - if you really love it...do it. If you really love it - it will never become work, you just have to accept the rest of the junk that goes with running a business.

That's my two cents.

Good luck,
-joe

[Mark Riegsecker]

Ben,
When I first read your post I wanted to reply immediatly. I held off mostly because all the advice was very good.

As I was going to work I couldn't help but think about what you said in your post so here I am. With my two cents.

Getting into woodworking as a hobby is quite different than a bussiness You might say "Hey this is fun I could make some money. But remember while you are saying that you are not pressured you can sit down and watch tv or read a book or go to town for something.
I have been into real estate most of my adult life having a few rentals to 35 at one point. It's a lot of work. You do things you don't want to do over and over. Once your committed financially you now have to.

And tending to people who have expectations is also a lot of work. I can tell you these guys who look successful usually aren't. They sometomes don't have anything but credit. If they had to cash out they would be well less, successful looking. I only say this from my experiance and in general terms. I'm sure not everyone falls into that catagory. When I finally cashed out I did sell for a profit until april:eek: ! So being rich and looking rich are well you can't tell from the outside looking in.

I can look back now and say no wonder there is " easy entry" into some things and very diffecult in others. It's because some one long before us has already determined the value. And it keeps changing. Like at an auction, who will let you get an item for a price that's too good to be true at one of those. Rarely.

Some of the guys said try it first instead of jumping into it. Good advice. I read of someone wanting to get into a Mcdonalds franchise. The advice to him was to go to your closest one, put in your application for cleaning tables and the restrooms. in other words start from the bottom to learn every bit of what it takes to run one of those.

Ian and Tom have it right. That word you used in your post, available? or offered. That's scary.

My dad once told me he wanted to give me $3000 because he gave my brother $3000. Ok That sounds cool. Now mind you I didn't ask and would never have known. It's all his idea. To make a long story short He gave me a lawn mower instead. Now that was ok because I had a lot of lawns to mow at the time. So I gratefully took the mower. When I wanted to trade it for a new one? Well, what was given as a gift actually had strings attached. How was I to know? Different people have diferent ideas about what giving means. He was looking over my shoulder and I didn't even know it. Maybe you should say thank you but no thank you:D

I hope I didn't offend any one but rather helped.

Good Luck
Mark