Euro talk, next chapter... J/P's

[Paul B. Cresti]

Well Ok fine folks on to my next long winded chapter in a series of Euro-Talk...the self inflicted series by you know who...me, the unofficial spokesman for myself :)

It seems like a lot of people have been asking about combo's lately and while I have no direct experience with a full 5 in 1 combo I do have a MiniMax FS41 16" joiner/planer with the horizontal mortising attachment. So in theory it is a 3 in 1 machine.

Here are the particulars for my machine (others many vary): It has a 6.6hp 3ph motor, 79" long joiner bed, a 16" joiner and of course a 16" planer with two feed speeds. It use a Tersa cutter head and in my case I purchased the Euro guard for the joiner and added the horizontal mortising attachment which mounts on the back of the machine. This feature I do believe is the only J/P that has the mortiser on the back, as it allows you to leave the mortiser on all the time which is very nice because it is solid cast iron and very heavy. Please note as you will see I created my own additional auxillary mortiser table which creates a larger surface area, an easier & more flexible clamping system and a very simple indexing system for locating mortises.

First five pictures here show the FS41 in jointing mode and then in planing mode.

continued in next post.....

[Paul B. Cresti]

Next three pictures you will see the FS41 set up to complete horizontal mortising. For you whom do not know, a horizontal mortiser creates both mortises in style and rail where in turn you create a loose tenon to fit both mortises to join the parts together.

Now the mortising bit is attached to the back of the machine via a chuck on the "back side" of the cutter head.

The fourth & fifth pictures you will see some completed mortises and how the tenon stock fits. Please note for this demo I did not create the real tenon stock (it was some I had laying around) as normally I would have made it to fit the whole tenon. The tenon stock is made via the planer, to get correct thickness and then I rip it on the bandsaw to the proper width and cut it to correct length on my slider. The mortises that are created are done with a spinning bit so of course you get rounded ends thus the tenon stock has to be rounded also. I do this on my router table with a small roundover bit. The bit I use to cut the mortises is called a "Birdsmouth bit" and it creates a PERFECTLY clean mortise just like a router bit does.

continued in next post....

[Paul B. Cresti]

In the next five pictures you will see my auxillary table top I created (it is bolted to the top of the smaller cast iron OEM table). The first picture shows my jigs to hold this particular piece in place. The second picture shows my indexing system for locating the piece on the table for repetitive pieces for the next mortises. The adjustable dowels slide on the block to create the stop I need and can be mounted on either side of the auxillary table.

The next three pictures show the stock loaded to cut the mortise (in this example it would be for the styles. Note how clean the mortise is. The main table is adjusted height wise via the handwheel in front of the mortiser (I have the little knob/handle turned in). There are stops also on the mortiser to limit the left to right motion and the in and out motion to limit depth of cut. You will also see two long handles on the mortiser. The one sticking out the top is for the left to right motion and the one on the bottom is for the in and out motion. With a birdsmouth bit the way to cut a mortise it to plunge in a 1/16" then go left to right...plunge in again, left right....plunge in....

continued on next post...

[Paul B. Cresti]

Next few pictures are showing the way the setup would look when cutting the mortises for the rail stock. Since I am cutting the mortise on the end grain portion of the stock I have absoultely no limit to how long this stock can be...try that on your multi-router of FMT!

I think that is enough for now and most likely I have confused the heck out of all you but so be it thats what happens when you work all day and unwind by drinking coffee and posting on the internet :D

[Mark Singer]

Paul,
Very nice machine....I can only dream and say maybe someday:confused: Sam can you hear me?

[Jim Dailey]

Paul once again "Thank You" for your most informative posts!!!

I really enjoyed both the pictures & your commentary!!!

I looked at or thought about a MM combo jointer/planer. The combination of the large capacity of the jointer & my MM20 has great appeal for book matching. However in my case the deal breaker was my shop layout. If I remember correctly you feed the jointer in one direction & feed the planer in the opposite.... this did not work with my shop's work flow. How have you found working with these opposite feed directions. Are there compromises?

"Thank's again",
jim

[Gary Herrmann]

Nice machine, Paul. I'd love to get one someday. Only problem would be that sharp left turn going down the stairs.

The fact that it probably weighs as much as two MM16s doesn't make it any more likely. :(

[Alan Turner]

Paul
What is the weight of that guy?

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul
What is the weight of that guy?

Alan,
As I have it with the mortiser roughly in the 1200 lb range, without it around 1000.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul once again "Thank You" for your most informative posts!!!

I really enjoyed both the pictures & your commentary!!!

I looked at or thought about a MM combo jointer/planer. The combination of the large capacity of the jointer & my MM20 has great appeal for book matching. However in my case the deal breaker was my shop layout. If I remember correctly you feed the jointer in one direction & feed the planer in the opposite.... this did not work with my shop's work flow. How have you found working with these opposite feed directions. Are there compromises?

"Thank's again",
jim

Jim,
Yes you are correct you join in one direction and plane in the other. I do not see how this is an issue. If you have lets say a 16ft alley to work in....set the j/p in the middle and you can join and plane up to 8ft. No matter what jointer or planer you get you will have the same length requirements, all this j/p does is put it all together in the same footprint.

[James Biddle]

Paul,
How does the DC work in the jointer mode? Doesn't the dust want to come out of the outfeed side of the planer opening? Also, is the DC hose on the back strictly for the mortiser?

[Brian Buckley]

Thanks for the post Paul. I need to make a table for my mortiser on the 410 Elite. You gave me some good ideas.
I was looking at Sam's table this weekend while attending a shaper course he taught in Austin. I need to know if it is true that Sam taught you everything you know about woodworking.

Brian

[Mark Singer]

Thanks for the post Paul. I need to make a table for my mortiser on the 410 Elite. You gave me some good ideas.
I was looking at Sam's table this weekend while attending a shaper course he taught in Austin. I need to know if it is true that Sam taught you everything you know about woodworking.

Brian

It is true Sam told me the same thing ......:rolleyes:

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul,
How does the DC work in the jointer mode? Doesn't the dust want to come out of the outfeed side of the planer opening? Also, is the DC hose on the back strictly for the mortiser?

James,
In jointer mode the dc hooks up to the infeed side of the table. It is a fix dc hood. I beleive you can see the port in the last picture of the FS41 in planning mode. I works fine for me but you need to make sure that your DC system is up to the task! Remember 16" is a very wide cut and the shavings made by the Tersa knives are light and fluffy and will clog a weak dc system. Yes the DC hose I have (do you like my quick disconnect system ;) ) on the back of the machine is for the mortiser only. It works quite well as all the chips generally fall into the space between the mortiser table and the main machine and since the mortiser unit has "container" encasement it is all picked up.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Thanks for the post Paul. I need to make a table for my mortiser on the 410 Elite. You gave me some good ideas.
I was looking at Sam's table this weekend while attending a shaper course he taught in Austin. I need to know if it is true that Sam taught you everything you know about woodworking.

Brian

Brian & Cali boy ;) ,

I knew Sam before he joined MM when he was a real ww'r :D and actually had calluses on his hands, from working. I did speak with him about Euro machines in the very beginning as he was running his whole shop off of a full combo (CU300 smart) and other MM machines. So he helped me make the "leap of faith" but as far as woodworking and design itself....NOT!!!

[Jim Dailey]

Hi Paul,

Thank's for your reply, it does seems that the two directions work nice for you.

To answer your question, it was not a question of room, ie. 16' alley way, but layout. I want to have my jointer behind and off to the right of my table saw so I can just step back turn about 90 degress joint the piece & back to the saw for the next rip. That location although perfect for the jointer is completely wrong for planing. The location for the planer lines up with a alley way where rough materails come in.... so in my case as hard as I tried... 'cause I too like the idea of the single foot print and the Tersa blades, in my case it just didn't seem to work out.

Thanks again for the great pictures & your sharing what and how you are doing things.

jim

[Mark Singer]

"Cali boy " ...hear...I believe you!:rolleyes: No calus Sam...that is what I call him!

[Chris Livingston]

Nice pics Paul. Since I have the same exact setup I'm glad you did this first. Its given me some really good ideas.

Have you thought about putting T-tracks in the table top and have knobs and T-bolts going through the top pieces for right and left so you don't have to clamp them down?

[Sam Blasco]

Brian & Cali boy ;) ,

I knew Sam before he joined MM when he was a real ww'r :D and actually had calluses on his hands, from working. I did speak with him about Euro machines in the very beginning as he was running his whole shop off of a full combo (CU300 smart) and other MM machines. So he helped me make the "leap of faith" but as far as woodworking and design itself....NOT!!!

You really think I would try and take credit for HIS designs and HIS level of workmanship?... NOT!!! :D

Really, good job on the table. What I did with my mortising table was create a trough so that I could do thru notches, tenons (if I so chose, but I do those elsewhere) and make it a more versatile milling station.

And Brian, I didn't know you could move that quickly when it comes to ducking and hitting the deck. Not sure if I got any pictures of it though.:p

[Mark Singer]

Sam,
Now that your awake......couple of things...put a small dent in my new baby ....:rolleyes:

Make the mortising table for me and surprise me....:rolleyes:

It is the least you can do for my patience.....

[tod evans]

ya`ll sceered to admit that dain tought ya everything or what? he`s tage frid incarnate, tought me everything i know. :) come on paul/sam fess up..02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

Nice pics Paul. Since I have the same exact setup I'm glad you did this first. Its given me some really good ideas.

Have you thought about putting T-tracks in the table top and have knobs and T-bolts going through the top pieces for right and left so you don't have to clamp them down?

Chris,
Yes I was thinking about things like that but eventually you would have to make the decision of where to place the "T" tracks. Since the stock you place on the table can vary depending on what you are working on the clamping system has to be very flexible to accomodate. In this manner if you place a "T" track too close to the edge a larger piece can not be clamped and of course vice versa. In additon you would need more "T" tracks perpendicular to the first for mortising the end of stock. In the end I used the KISS method....

The funny thing is in the pictures you will notice the eccentric clamp pushing down on a piece of MDF that is holding down the stock....that was a complete mistake/spurr of the moment thing done for the picture sake.....and guess what it works great.

As you may have found out already, if you "turn" the eccentric clamp enough to face you the back of the clamp, where the kip lever is, will eventually hit the post mounting system on jointer fence when you are doing a really deep mortise. If you turn the eccentric clamp to have the back avoid the post you shift the clamping position too close to the bit oer too far away from the piece in the other direction. So the little dinky piece of MDF allows you to sit in the middle and have the clearance you need. The key features of the MDF that makes it work is that it is flexible and it does not mar your piece......talk about dumb luck!

[Greg Hairston]

Paul,
Once again brilliant stuff here. I will incorporate this on my Mortiser this weekend.

Greg

[Paul B. Cresti]

Sam,
Now that your awake......couple of things...put a small dent in my new baby ....:rolleyes:

Make the mortising table for me and surprise me....:rolleyes:

It is the least you can do for my patience.....

Mark Mark Mark,
Sam can not help you there..........but my special addition mortising table auxillary add on system (SAMTAAOS, pronounced "sam-taus") is availble for a limited time offer for the low price of .......$1999 plus shipping & handling fees....... The SAMTAAOS includes: A video demonstration of a master mortise maker showing how the system is attached and how it operates, a certificate of authenticity w/ serial number, and ........ autographed auxillary table top by the master mortiser himself!!!

[Mark Singer]

Paul,
It sounds very resonable:confused: Does that include the now famous MDF hold down board....or must I supply my own?

Is the table signed and numbered and what are the shipping charges from NJ?
Will it work on a much larger and more sophisticated Elite "s" model:rolleyes:

Your sure its not "Shmates"?

http://www.bergen.org/AAST/projects/Yiddish/English/comwor.html

[Mark Singer]

Paul,
One last question.....do you live in "Skillman" by chance?
Was it named by the town folks in honor of your ability?
or did you move their hoping things would improve:confused:

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul,
One last question.....do you live in "Skillman" by chance?
Was it named by the town folks in honor of your ability?
or did you move their hoping things would improve:confused:

Markison (AKA Pat Morita and Karate Kid),

All very good questions...... allow me to enlighten you...

The town was always named Skillman.......BUT I heard rumors.....that they we considering a name change to ...Unskillpaul... but it is only rumors at this time.

Not quite sure I understand you schmatat or whatever noise-like word that was...... I guess ths is where the teacher becomes the pupil so enlighten me Markison.

As far as my "design" fitting the newer models, I am not sure I will have to speak to the "Engineering Department" first...

Shipping cost....hmm...do you want the specially designed limited edition packing also?? That too can be signed with its own serial number and certificate of authenticity....let me know the sales/marketing department has just informed that we are only producing a small batch of these.....100.....and so far to date we have sold, -100 ,so supplies are limited.

[Saul Harris]

I have not personally seen Paul's table - only the pics posted here. I have, on the other hand seen - and used - Sam's version of the mortiser table on Sam's 410 Elite. Personally, in my never-to-be-humble opinion, I likes Sam's design better. Sorry, Paul...

I think that everyone who wants to order the mortiser with a jointer/planer should very politely and very nicely (read B-E-G) Sam to either make a table for you or detail it's design. (Sorry, Sam...) :p