Need advice - I might get to build a new shop!

[Matt Meiser]

We are considering making an offer on a new house. One of the things we are going to include in the offer is that the builder will need to build my shop. My wife and I have agreed that I should build the shop immediately rather than temporarily use the attached garage or basement because of noise and dust, especially in a brand new house. Who am I to argue with that logic?

I've been working on a basic list of requirements for the shop to include in the offer. The plan is to have them put up the shell, run gas and electric, then I will finish the inside as time permits. Here is my list:

Garage:
- 24x32 garage/shop
- frame construction
- 1 9x7 door in 24’ wall facing road
- 1 36” Steel entry door facing house
- 2 36x36” double hung double pane windows facing house
- Exterior finish (siding/shingles) to match house
- 4” concrete slab with reinforcing mesh
- min 1 row of block above finished slab
- Underground natural gas line run to garage from house
- 100A underground electrical service run to garage, installed as a subpanel to house panel. Panel to support min. 16 single pole circuits and match brand/type installed in house.
- Door/Window placement to be approved by me before construction
- Site plan to be approved by me before construction.

Another question for those with "2-1/2 car" garages: will there be room for a lawn tractor, all the accessories, a grill, lawn furniture, and other assorted items in the garage with two cars? Our current house has a detached 22x20 garage with a 22x10 addition on the back that we use for storing all that stuff. I'm wondering if I should divide up the new space in a similar manner and add an additional, smaller overhead door into that space for getting the tractor in and out. Inside I'd have a door to access the space, which I wouldn't heat. I don't want to keep the tractor and stuff in the heated woodworking area. In the future we'd probably put up a shed for the tractor and stuff.

[Todd Burch]

Go for as big a space as you can afford. Go with the highest ceiling you can get away with. Plan for the ceiling to support all the stuff you will store in the attic. Have the builder put a deck up there in full sheets so you don't have to squeeze it up there later. Make a separate space for anything that you don't want to have sawdust on (like a lawn tractor). Think about another roll-up door in the back if you ever want a breeze through the place. Polished concrete is good - stay away from any raised sections of flooring. Have him run a second empty conduit from the house, in case you want to run a phone or computer line later. Don't forget a 4" pipe for your toilet and sink... That should do it.
Todd.

[Steve Clardy]

I'd go with at least 9' ceiling, they make studs for them. Also maybe 2x6 walls. The cost difference between 2x4 walls and 2x6 is minimal, especially being able to have more insulation. Will make it more comfy, less heating bills. And yes, maybe wall off a section for you tractor and stuff.

[Kevin Hewitt]

Hi Matt,

Good suggestions so far. Higher ceilings are great for swinging around the lumber and radiant heat from above. Thicker walls and insulation keeps the heat in and it keeps it out.

The only suggestion I'll make is a larger panel. 100A is great but breakers will chew up a 16 space panel quicker than you think. I'd go 24 or bigger. The cost isn't that much more.

You're realizing what I day dream about. Have fun.


Gump

[Jim Becker]

Matt, in addition to the other comments, either make the big door a roll-up or something else that will not block the ceiling/lighting, etc. I also think you will be quite cramped if you have to dedicate space to storage of the lawn equipment, etc. If you can afford it...stretch that building a little longer for the storage space! It's easier and less expensive to do it now, rather than later...

[Matt Meiser]

Todd, Thanks, I almost forgot about the phone line. Although I've been wondering if those new cordless phones with remote units would work that far? It would be nice for me to be able to call into the house or vice-versa.

Kevin, According to the sheet from the realtor, for some reason the house only has 150A service, which seems odd. If that is true, upgrading the house to 200A will be part of our offer. Then, I'll propose that they just move the house panel out to the garage and change out the main breaker if possible.

Hopefully the builder will go for all of this. If not, I guess we keep looking!

[Christian Aufreiter]

Hi Matt,

you might like an extra room for finishing, too, and be sure to have 220 V.

Regards,

Christian

[Don Farr]

Matt, Lots of really good advise already, so if I repeat something please forgive me. I did this very same thing a little over two years ago and I will tell you what I wish that I would have done differently. Mine is 20' X 40' X 10' ceilings.
Rather than using engineered trusses for the roof they stick built it, resulting in two support columns in the middle of the shop. They take up a lot of room and are always in the way.
The electrician laughed at me when I told him how many outlets that I wanted. Since then I have added 4 -240 volt and numerous more 120 volt outlets an still don't have enough. Go for all you can afford.
Try to complete the inside before moving anything in. It is a real pain to do it after the fact.
Like Jim said, consider a garage door that rolls up. Mine doesn't and it does create a dark corner.
Depending on the sun and how you lay out the shop on your land, try to use your windows to let in as much light as possible. My windows are on the east side which gives me good light in the morning and none in the afternoon.
Finish your concrete floor before you move in. Check out Terry Hatfields post on this. He did a great job on his.
Plan, plan and plan some more. Where is your air compressor going (noisy), work benches and power equipment. Are you going to put in a dust collector in the future? How are you going to run the pipes for that.
Security? I wish that I would have tied mine into the house system.
And finally the phone. I ran the wire from the house to the shop but wound up using the wireless w/ intercom that you mentioned. Works great. I would say the receiver is about 150 feet away. Go with the 2.4 gig. Lots of luck.

[Jim Becker]

Rather than using engineered trusses for the roof they stick built it, resulting in two support columns in the middle of the shop.

Very good point. Engineered lumber and trusses are the only way to go and really don't cost much more, if any. The spans they can do are wonderful...my shop is 21' wide and the engineered joists require no support, yet are light-weight.


Security? I wish that I would have tied mine into the house system.

Excellent point. No matter where you live in the country, this is more and more of a requirement.


And finally the phone. I ran the wire from the house to the shop but wound up using the wireless w/ intercom that you mentioned. Works great. I would say the receiver is about 150 feet away. Go with the 2.4 gig. Lots of luck.

I currently use a 2.4ghz multiline phone sytem which gives both phone and intercom to the shop as well as the rest of the property...and down the road a short way! But it's generally a good idea to have conduit between the buildings, rather than just buried wires, so you can make future adjustments and additions for both telcom, LAN, CATV and security. You don't want to have to dig in the future.

Also, I forgot to mention in my first post that "facilities" are a good idea if you can accomodate them. A laundry sink and a toilet are the best thing since sliced bread for both comfort and clean-up. I'll also be putting in a shower when I get the bathroom in my shop/office building.

[Don Farr]

I currently use a 2.4ghz multiline phone sytem which gives both phone and intercom to the shop as well as the rest of the property...and down the road a short way! But it's generally a good idea to have conduit between the buildings, rather than just buried wires, so you can make future adjustments and additions for both telcom, LAN, CATV and security. You don't want to have to dig in the future.

I absolutely agree with the extra conduit. PVC is cheap if that is what he chooses to go with. I was just saying the phone does work very well at distances.
This just give me an idea :D I bet I could use the unused phone line to tie into my house security.

[Jim Becker]

I absolutely agree with the extra conduit. PVC is cheap if that is what he chooses to go with. I was just saying the phone does work very well at distances.

It's important to use the correct material for your conduit to insure that it remains weather-proof and intact over time. The grey conduit made for the purpose is what you want...and be sure to leave a pull string in it!

[Perry Schmidt]

Ah, you lucky guy...

Some added suggestions (which some hit on already):
- 4" sewer so you can have a head - if you want it.
- I'd run one of these new 'multi-media' cables (don't know what they're
called...). But it's a couple of Cat-5 cables, Coax, etc. all bundled
into one cable. This would allow you to run all kinds of electronics
between the house and shop. (Intercom, TV signal, phone, internet
connection, etc...) You won't use all of them now, but I bet down
the road you will...
- I'd also run additional low voltage wire for remote locks. They have
locks that you can either remotely lock, or have at least detectors
that will tell you if they are locked. But some 'indicators' at your
main house that tell you if the doors are locked and lights off in the
shop are very VERY handy. (My father rigged something like this for
his and it's VERY nice...) Sort of fits into the security suggestion.
- 10' ceilings are a must!


Perry

[Ken Garlock]

Hi Matt. There is a lot of good advice posted above. Let me tell you what I did for my new shop.

1) If you think you will have enough room, then add about 30 percent to it.
2) Plan for a separate finishing room.
3) Use at least 2x6 wall studs. I used 8" structural insulated panels for a R30 insulation.
4) There is no need to have support posts in the shop. Use I-joists! Our garage attached to the house is 25x34 and there are no support posts -- all I-joists running the 25 ft, front to back. The shop has no post either.
5) Do have plywood decking in the attic.
6) Do have at least 12" of insulation in the attic.
7) Do have a 200 Amp service installed. I have a separate meter for my shop.
8) Put a 240v/20a outlet with every second 120v wall outlet.
9) Consider a trench in the concrete floor for dust collection piping and power to the big tools.
10) Don't forget to include several 240v/30a outlets for dust collector and table saw, etc.
11) Do include an HVAC system.
12) Keep the garage part separate from the shop. You don't want winter "stuff" contaminating your shop area and wood.
13) Do lay a 3" plastic electrical conduit between the house and shop for phone lines, intercom, computer connection, and TV coax. (I have two of them which supports my shop, radio room, and 2 car garage.
14) Don't plan on putting your lawn tractor, etc, in the house garage, add a 2 car garage to the shop for the "farm equipment."
15) I put 24"x48" windows up high in the 10 ft wall. Get all the natural light but not the direct sun light.
16) Do use 10 ft high walls.
17) I used french style double doors for a shop entrance. They are Stanley insulated steel, and surely make a difference. On a hot afternoon, you can't stand to put your hand on the outside, but the inside is barely warm. Don't use garage doors unless you get the Overhead Garage Door Co. R17 insulated doors. (We have them in our garages which face south. When it was 109 outside with the sun shining on the doors, it was only 90 in the garage!
18) Put Quad outlets instead of just duplex. Run each duplex in the quad box on a separate circuit. If one breaker pops, you still have power in the other duplex outlet.

My shop, radio room, finishing room, and 2 car garage is over 1400 sq-ft on the slab. Things I would do different:
1) The shop is only 23x24. It should be more like 24x30.
2) The radio room and finishing rooms are only 8x12. Should be at least 10x12.
3) It would be nice to have the garage a little wider and deeper. The F-150 just fits with only about 4 ft in front, and almost nothing at the rear.

These are the things I did last year along with some "do differents." Do it right the first time so that you can spend your time in the shop, not on the shop.

[Rob Russell]

Matt,

I was lucky enough to get the basement of the addition in our house as my new workshop. It's nominally 32'x 24', although that's to the outside of the concrete walls. Inside dimensions are closer to 30'x23'. Here's what I've learned about taking a space and making it a workshop.

Before I start, you have a lot of good ideas with what you've already laid out. Here are some things that strike me as things to consider on the "requirements list".

Bigger is better. By the time I get all my machinery in the shop, it will be cramped. I've got some big machinery (stealth gloat - part of my house trim project included some serious mega-machinery upgrades) and the floor space disappears quickly when you look at big toys.
You are not going to want to store garden tractors and the like in your workshop, even temporarily. They well get covered with sawdust and will introduce dampness etc. to your workshop.
In Michigan, your climate is similar to Connecticut. I know that you swing from snow in winter to hot and sticky in summer. Radiant heat is a nice idea, but the way to do it is in the poured slab. Radiant heat is efficient and, by keeping the basic shop and machinery warm, you will reduce/eliminate condensation on your tools and the resultant rust problem.
Ceiling height is crucial. Leave your ceiling as open as possible, with nothing but lights, dust collection ducting and electrical chases running up there. My ceiling is low - 6'6" to the bottom of the floor trusses (couldn't be helped), so I'm recessing everything up between the trusses to save evry inch of headroom. The height restricts machine size purchases (bandsaw, for example) and makes swinging lumber a major PITA.
Plan to cover your slab with a layer of 3/4 plywood or flakeboard. It saves tools when you drop something, still lets you roll around machinery and is a softer surface to stand on than concrete.
Some of the other posts hint at this, but you want a bathroom in the shop. There's the obvious reason, but also the need for a deep sink and water to cleanup from finishing, etc. A counter for a microwave would be nice and under counter refrig. Even a stall shower to clean
You want a separate machine room for your boiler/furnace/hot water heater and compressor. This keeps those out of the dusty woodworking environment.


So - how would I modify your building plans?
As has already been suggested, build a longer shop. Make the first 8' to 12' walled off storage space for the garden stuff. Have a 9' garage door from the outside. Put an 8' door from the storage area into the shop. That way they can both open into the same overhead space in the storage area. The only time you'd need to open both up is when you're trying to get stuff into the shop. Make the next 8' to 12' the space for enclosed systems and bathroom. You could allow a 8x8 bathroom on one side, 8x8 garage door in the middle, 8x8 "boiler room" on the opther side, including a 4x5 corner taken out for your DC/cyclone. This then leaves you an open shop space without worrying about your basic building mechanicals. I klnow this makes for a shop that's 48' to 60' long, but you're better off building that once. If you make the garden section 16' deep, you could park a 3rd car in the middle, provided it's not a full size pickup. Your 'Cuda Hemi ragtop would fit :-)
I'd absolutely insist on 200 amp service for your house. 100 amp service in the shop is a minimum; I'd even run 150 amp service to the shop. I'm faced with the potential for a load of 100+ amps just by running 2 machines simultaneously + dust collection and that's without any of the systems stuff like lighting, air compressor or building mechanicals.
Go with a 10' ceiling. That gives you easy room to swing 8' lumber and not whack your lights, ducts or whatever.
Think about some sort of dehumidification system for the summe rmonths. Air conditioning would perfect, also the most expensive. Remember that you'd need to allow for extra filtering with A/C because of the wood dust. Absolutely consider radiant in the slab. A gas hot water heater is all you need to heat the whole shop.
Frame the ceiling such that you can access the attic for storage. Consider steel to keep your shop area free from lolly columns.


Boy - is it easy to spend your money! If you have questions, holler.

Rob

[Bart Leetch]

Put your windows up high on the east & west ends & up high any where else you think you'll need light. Up high enough that no one can see in through them.

[Scott Greaves]

Hi Matt,

I'll sing along with the chorus here! ;-)

My new shop is just now nearing completion. The drywall went in last week, and the final painting is today. I was going to paint it myself, but the guy who did the drywall gave me such a good deal on the painting I couldn't say no! The only thing left to do now is paint the floor. So let me tell you what I did for a new shop:

I was going to go 24 x 36, but at the last minute decided to go 24 x 40. I'm glad I did. When I get all my stuff in there, it will still be a bit crowded!

The building is built on a slab with a perimeter foundation - stem walls. The footings for the stem walls is down below the frost line. I laid out a layer of foam insulation under the slab, and also laid out tubing for radiant heat before the slab was poured. I will be able to heat the building using a tankless water heater.

I went with a 12 foot ceiling. I want to hang air cleaners from the ceiling, and the extra height will accomodate that with no problem. The walls are 2 x 6 framed construction. The roof was truss built so I have no interior support columns to deal with. The insulation is a blown in synthetic, and the walls and ceiling are drywall.

I went with a 10 x 10 insulated overhead door. The roll up ones were just too much, and this is a nice door. When the door is open, it will block one light fixture (out of eleven). I have a total of four windows, and there is an insulated steel walk-in door.

One corner of the shop has an 8 x 8 bathroom built into it. I'm getting too old to run into the house every time I need to potty! Besides, that disrupts the flow of work! It will have toilet, sink, and shower. The room will also house all the plumbing for both water and heating. Since bathrooms don't need a 12 foot ceiling, I framed it in with an eight foot ceiling, which leaves a very nice 3 1/2 foot storage space above the bathroom.

I had a place do a lighting plan for me, and am using eleven, four foot, four tube fluorescent fixtures, Lithonia, with electronic ballasts.

I have a separate 200 amp panel for the shop. I also have a separate meter on the shop. I bought a big panel, and have filled it up! I have seven separate 240v circuits. Three separate circuits for lights. I placed my regular receptacle boxes 4' 3" above the floor, so I can lean a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood up against the wall, and not block the outlets. They are double gang boxes, and I have two separate 115v circuits (20 amp) running into each box, so that the outlets next to each other are on separate circuits. I have no more than four receptacles on each circuit, and the boxes are place about every four feet along all the walls, so that means that with the bathroom and all, I have about 18 separate 20 amp 115v circuits! The electricians said they had never seen so many circuits! ;-)

One more hint - Ebay can be a good source for specialty building items. For instance, I got all my light fixtures from a guy off of Ebay for about half the price they would have cost me at a local parts house. Another for instance - all my receptacles are Hubbell, which are great receptacles! And I bought them all off of Ebay for about the price I would have paid for cheapo, no-name ones at the big box.

Things I would do differently (already) - I would put in more windows! Natural light is wonderful in a shop. If you can find pictures of Mac in Indy's shop, that is what I would aspire to!

I hope you have fun putting together your new shop! And I hope all of this has given you some good ideas!

Scott.

[Dave Hammelef]

Matt,
As a fellow Michiganian, Put the radiant floor in the concrete. twop co-workers have outbuildings for shops one has a water heater in the attic that pumps hot water through the floor the other uses radiant heaters in the ceiling. The floor wins hands down, That large thermal mass of concrete is just awesome.

Dave

[Jim Becker]

...put the radiant floor in the concrete.

I'll agree with that one, too. It's one of the best ways to heat the shop and there is no air blowing around stiring up...err...dust.

[Jerry Solomon]

Matt - I have an older home with a 3-car garage. This area is about 22 ft. deep x 35 ft. wide. In the garage, we store a riding lawn mower, push mower, edger, and one bicycle. We rarely ever put the car in the garage. I essentially use the 2-car side for my shop. In there I have a contractor saw, band saw, planer, jointer, drill press, scroll saw, radial arm saw, BOSS sander, and 1-HP portable dust collector. It is VERY cramped. Unless I move all of the non-woodworking stuff out, it is difficult to work on anything. I'm considering buying a 10x12 pre-fab building to house the lawn equipment. That would make it MUCH better for woodworking. Good luck on your project!

[Matt Meiser]

Thanks everyone. We decided to pass on this particular house becuase of a few issues with the interior layout that we would like to have a little different. We are planning on our next house to last us for a long, long time, and there is nothing wrong with our current house for now so we are going to hold out to get what we want. In the mean time, I can still continue to plan, and you never know when the perfect house will come on the market and I'll be ready to start.

I think I'll save this thread to a file because there is a lot of great advice.

[Matt Meiser]

How much could I expect to pay for the materials for in-floor radiant heat? How does it compare cost-wise to a small forced air unit in the wall or on the ceiling?

[Bart Leetch]

Matt - I have an older home with a 3-car garage. This area is about 22 ft. deep x 35 ft. wide. In the garage, we store a riding lawn mower, push mower, edger, and one bicycle. We rarely ever put the car in the garage. I essentially use the 2-car side for my shop. In there I have a contractor saw, band saw, planer, jointer, drill press, scroll saw, radial arm saw, BOSS sander, and 1-HP portable dust collector. It is VERY cramped. Unless I move all of the non-woodworking stuff out, it is difficult to work on anything. I'm considering buying a 10x12 pre-fab building to house the lawn equipment. That would make it MUCH better for woodworking. Good luck on your project!

I had to chuckle a 2 car garage cramped.

Say Jerry try pretty much the same amount of tools in a 13'5" x 24'5" shop with 7'10" ceiling & only a 36" door.

I have added a 12" compound miter saw & a lathe & removed the round table top tool table since these pictures were posted.

Oh & yes I have a bathroom with a deep sink & toilet. All this at two apartment complexes that the LOML & I manage. I feel pretty fortunate, I've never had my own shop before. I grew up having a shop to work in because my Dad had a custom cabinet shop & built custom homes.

Ah well just teasing & all in good fun. Hey I'll trade ya......

Check out my little shop by clicking on the link button below.

[Rob Russell]

How much could I expect to pay for the materials for in-floor radiant heat?

If you're pouring a slab, the cost to add radiant mostly comes down to:
the tubing you bury in the concrete
manifolds to connect the tubing to (the tubing is multiple loops under 200', not 1 loooong loop)
a heat source liike a hot water heater
circulating pumps.

You could still expect to spend an extra $2K to install radiant, given the above circumstances.


How does it compare cost-wise to a small forced air unit in the wall or on the ceiling?

The cost equation is quite different. Radiant is a higher up front cost, the operational expense is lower IF if you use the shop a lot. The point about radiant is that the building and machinery are warm. That makes it comfortable to work in. It's also more effiecient to heat that way. When you fire up a forced air heater and blow hot air around, you're trying to heat up the air, to heat up you. If your shop is 50* when you walk, your machinery will stay cold for the entire time you're in there with a forced air system.

Until you've experienced radiant heat, you sorta can't believe how comfortable it is. It's what we put in our house addition and there is a noticiable difference in comfort between the addition and the older part of the house that has baseboard radiators.

[Jim Becker]

How much could I expect to pay for the materials for in-floor radiant heat? How does it compare cost-wise to a small forced air unit in the wall or on the ceiling?

Here's an outfit that caters to the do-it-yourselfer relative to in-floor radient heating systems: Radient Floor Company (http://www.radiantcompany.com/)

Check out the cute phone number... :D

[Doyle Alley]

If I might add one comment on your new shop plans. Rather than waste valuable space in either your garage or your shop for lawn type equipment, I would have a small bump-out added to the slab for your shop and frame up a small addition. It would cost very little to add the extra space as an add-on to the shop. Put in a double wide set of Stanley metal doors (inexpensive) on the outside (no doors on the inside) and you now have a dedicated space for the lawn mower, snow blower, rakes, shovels, and other implements of destuction.