Delta Hybrid TS Question - Tell Me To What Degree I've Lost My Mind

[Howard Rosenberg]

Hi all -

This COULD lead to a gloat in a coupla days, but....

I have an opportunity to sell my Delta 36-650 CS for a fair price.
My goal would be to upgrade to the Delta Hybrid 36-715.
I can get it w/o the fence or mitre gauge - this is preferable - I like my aftermarket mitre gauge (INCRA) and Mule AccuSquarefence .

Except.... now I've got cold feet.

Why?

- my CS does everything I want (most of the time).
- it's on a mobile base and parks "just so" in my garage
- I've tamed the dust beast beautifully with a shop-made dust shroud
- cuts square using both the mitre gauge and/or fence

Why do I want the hybrid?

- sexier!!
- slightly more power
- slightly(?) better dust control
- left-tilt - not really much of an issue after so many years of right-tilt/fence ballet

Why am I experiencing this much anxiety?

1
- mobile base won't be an option
- I've got a four-foot table to the right of my current saw
- I can cut full sheets of MDF safely
- no mobile base means I'll have to figure out where to position it on the floor - and LEAVE it there
2
- I'll need to rearrange my other machines
- they're ALL on mobile bases and also parked "just so"
- they've got their own receptacles positioned "just so" to not need extension cords after I've pulled them out for use
- currently, I can always accomodate that last bit of area should I need to cut 47" to the right of the blade by jiggling the saw and machines
3
- I've heard of production probs
4
- I don't want/need any MORE aggro!!

Can anyone tell me your first-hand knowledge on -
- do you personally have a 36-715-series hybrid
- do you have any friends with one
- did you help set one up

Do you know of any (production/assembly) reasons this isn't the great move I originally thought???

Thank you.
Howard

BTW -
- 220 isn't an option
- JET and Grizzly aren't an option
- they're not distributed in Canada (oh, how I envy you Americans...)
- I prefer to buy gear with wide distribution for service etc
Thank you.

[Bart Leetch]

Its my understanding the the Delta Hybrid has trunnions fastened to the bottom of the table just like a contractors saw.

Now for many years I've stayed away from Sears but I have seen many many good comments about Sears Hybrid cabinet saw I know for a fact having seen them that the trunnions are fastened to the cabinet top & are pretty robust.

Taking all the above into account if I had my choice I would go with the Sears saw. My feeling is hybrid is a hybrid is a hybrid & still won't have the higher resale of a true cabinet-saw, but if this type of saw will fulfill you needs make sure you know all you need to know about it then go ahead & purchase it.

My feeling is that if it looks like a cabinet-saw but still has the trunnions on the bottom of the table you could still have the same problems that some have had with contractors table-saw. You'll just have a saw the looks different but has the same trunnion design flaws

[Howard Rosenberg]

aversion to Sears products.

I say this with only the greatest of respect to everyone who got their start in WW on Sears stuff but their customer service here in Canada is enough to give me a heart attack.

The cabinet-mounted trunnions are sure appealing but I've ALWAYS done well with Delta's customer service.

Thank you Bart.
Howard

[Bart Leetch]

Why am I experiencing this much anxiety?

Because you balancing your want with your need & what you have heard about this hybrid saw? :)

[Rick Thom]

Howard, although I don't have the model you are considering, I do have the Delta 36-655 which was their first 1 3/4 hp hybrid (rt). Absolutely no problems or complaints, and i would say it has been very good value so far. fyi I have mine on 20 amps (although technically 15 will do it), mine works fine on a mobile base, dust collection is satisfactory, thin kerf blades may be helpful but not required power-wise. I much prefer my Incra miter gauge to the oem supplied as well.
I undertsand that General also now has a hybrid but I know nothing about it.

[Ed Blough]

The two saws are basically identical. Delta's hybred is nothing more than a contractor saw mounted inside a cabinet.

The biggest shortcoming I see is the Delta still uses two rods to tie the trunions to the arbor support. In a true cabinet saw the arbor is supported by a one piece cast iron casting that slides in the trunions. There is nothing that can change or rack out of alignment.

Most alignment problems in contractors saws originate in the two tubes racking in the trunion slides and throwing the blade off.

I would say unless your having a problem with your saw keep it, stop reading all the forum posts that are giving you saw envy and go use the money you save to buy another tool or build something.

As for the Sears saws they too use the two tubes to support the arbor. Nobody is having problems yet but give them a few years. Those tubes are gradually working loose in and one day they will crank in some bevel and notice their blade is out of alignment. The tubes racked.

[scott spencer]

The two saws are basically identical. Delta's hybred is nothing more than a contractor saw mounted inside a cabinet.

The biggest shortcoming I see is the Delta still uses two rods to tie the trunions to the arbor support. In a true cabinet saw the arbor is supported by a one piece cast iron casting that slides in the trunions. There is nothing that can change or rack out of alignment.

Most alignment problems in contractors saws originate in the two tubes racking in the trunion slides and throwing the blade off.

I would say unless your having a problem with your saw keep it, stop reading all the forum posts that are giving you saw envy and go use the money you save to buy another tool or build something.

As for the Sears saws they too use the two tubes to support the arbor. Nobody is having problems yet but give them a few years. Those tubes are gradually working loose in and one day they will crank in some bevel and notice their blade is out of alignment. The tubes racked.

I think it's fair to note for those who may not realize that the connecting rods on the Delta, Jet, and Craftsman are about 1/8" larger in diameter than those found on a contractor saw. Factor in the design impact of not having the motor cantilevered off the back of those rods, and I believe the susceptibility of racking is significantly diminished....as evidenced by the lack of reports of this being a problem with the hybrids. The General International, Sunhill, DW, and Grizzly hybrids use a cast dust shroud for connecting the front and rear trunnions which addresses any ill effects from the rods, but they're still mounted to the table top. None of these designs rivals the full cabinet saws, but when someone gets around to using the cast dust shroud and cabinet mounted trunnions on the same hybrid, I'd guess we'll have to revise the list of complaints. My experiences with cabinet saws, hybrids and contractor saws has prompted me to form the opinion that hybrids currently offer some excellent advantages over a good contractor saw...namely better DC, smaller footprint, shorter drive belt fpr ,pre efficient power transfer and lower vibration, and more mass for improved stability. Some of these are the same advantages that a cabinet saw offers, but undoubtedly on a less robust scale than a cabinet saw, though all are plenty capable for most hobby work.

[CPeter James]

Why not get a Grizzly 1023 cabinet saw for the same or less money? Delta service USED to be good, but reports recently indicate that they left it behind when B&D bought them. I don't have any Grizzly (I buy mostly used stuff and the occasion never came up), but those who do speak very well of it and it's value.

CPeter

[Frank Pellow]

Why not get a Grizzly 1023 cabinet saw for the same or less money? Delta service USED to be good, but reports recently indicate that they left it behind when B&D bought them. I don't have any Grizzly (I buy mostly used stuff and the occasion never came up), but those who do speak very well of it and it's value.

CPeter
As Howard already said, we can not purchase Grizzly products in Canada.

[scott spencer]

As Howard already said, we can not purchase Grizzly products in Canada. No 220v available in Canada either ... well, at least not at Howard's shop. ;)

[Tim Morton]

my useless 2cents worth....you have a sweet contrator saw set-up...as do I . I love my saw....but I can understand the "want" of somethign more. No matter how nice our contrator saws are we still have a little "envy' when we see these beautiful cabinet saws. But I suggest fighting the urge until you can come out and ask us "what cabinet saw should I be looking at to replace my contractor saw":cool:

[Howard Rosenberg]

As Frank Pellow pointed out, Grizz = n/a in Canada.

As Scott pointed out - 220 isn't to be had in my shop - aarrgggh.

Tim - very good point but this shop won't be getting 220 so I'm back to this opp to buy a hybrid.

Howard

[Frank Pellow]

No 220v available in Canada either ... well, at least not at Howard's shop. ;)
I guess that you are right about that Scott -because the service in my shop is 240 volts, not 220 volts. :D

[Frank Pellow]

Howard, sorry that I don't know of anyone that has experience with the Delta Hybrid saw. But, looking at the arguments that you present for and against replacing your saw, I think that the Against side wins.

[Ed Blough]

I think it's fair to note for those who may not realize that the connecting rods on the Delta, Jet, and Craftsman are about 1/8" larger in diameter than those found on a contractor saw. Factor in the design impact of not having the motor cantilevered off the back of those rods, and I believe the susceptibility of racking is significantly diminished.....

Before Dewalt closed the PC/Delta service center in our city, I asked the Saw tech what he thought of the new Hybred saw. His answer reflected my concern.

The design using multiple tubes do rack because they still have the weight of the motor wanting to twist them as they are moved through an arc as they are cranked over for beveling. This is and has always been the weak spot in Contractor saws.
The mounting location of the trunions has no effect on losing alignment if they are locked down. I will readily agree that being cabinet mounted makes adjusting them easier but as far as holding adjustment the table mounted trunions should stay aligned as long as cabinet mounted does.

Yet everyone will tell you a cabinet saw will keep it's alignment longer than a contractor. Why? Because the cabinet saw does not have multiple pieces to shift, rack and generally develop slop and move around holding the arbor in alignment.

You can accept that or not but it is a fact.

[Ken Belisle]

I could be totally wrong about this, but it's something you should probably look into before buying...........

When I was about to buy the Delta hybrid, I was told that it required a 30 amp circuit (for the 1 3/4 HP motor) which required 10 GA wire. If I was going to have to run a new circuit anyway, why not just run a new 220V one.

You might want to contact Delta on this.................I could be totally wrong about it, but I'm still working with my CS based on that information.

[Ken Belisle]

I could be totally wrong about this, but it's something you should probably look into before buying...........

When I was about to buy the Delta hybrid, I was told that it required a 30 amp circuit (for the 1 3/4 HP motor) which required 10 GA wire. If I was going to have to run a new circuit anyway, why not just run a new 220V one.

You might want to contact Delta on this.................I could be totally wrong about it, but I'm still working with my CS based on that information.

[scott spencer]

I could be totally wrong about this, but it's something you should probably look into before buying...........

When I was about to buy the Delta hybrid, I was told that it required a 30 amp circuit (for the 1 3/4 HP motor) which required 10 GA wire. If I was going to have to run a new circuit anyway, why not just run a new 220V one.

You might want to contact Delta on this.................I could be totally wrong about it, but I'm still working with my CS based on that information. Hi Ken - The Delta motor is the same as the Sears motor. Both will run fine on a 20 amp circuit, and many do ok with a 15 amp circuit if necessary. There are some Grizzly motors that have a fairly high amp draw relative to others that you may have heard about. It's always worth checking, but I'm pretty confident the Delta should be fine on a standard circuit.

[Ron Robinson]

Howard,

FWIW

Sorry, no personal experience, but it sounds like you're trying to talk yourself into this hybrid. Words like "sexy" and "slightly more" do not sound like justification for a purchase of this nature IMHO. You also sound as if you are happy with your current set-up. I went through a table saw upgrade last year and also looked at hybrids. In the end I decided they were not enough of an improvement over my CS and I bought a Unisaw.

Ron Robinson

[Mark Pruitt]

Howard,
You may have your mind made up by now but FWIW I would walk away from the deal you're looking at and hold out until you can buy a cabinet saw. I have a new Unisaw that I paid 1600 for including a mobile base and Biesemeyer fence, and I have to say it was well worth the wait and the $$ I spent for it. My two cents.
Mark

[Charlie Plesums]

One of the reasons I was anxious to move away from my old contractor saw was the total depth required... when I rolled it to the side of my garage...er...shop... it still stuck out from the wall over 3 1/2 feet, severely limiting where it could be stored.

It sounds like you have totally solved that problem, so why change? To me, it appears that a hybrid is a contractor saw that doesn't have the problem of the motor sticking out so far. I never had an accuracy problem with my contractor saw...I suspect that the bad rap that the contractor saws get is because there are many extremely cheap (shoddy) contractor saws, but fewer shoddy cabinet saws.

[Bruce Lewis]

I've been looking at low end cabinet saws as well as the hybrid saws for quite a while, now. I have an old Craftsman (circa 1964) contractor's saw that has far too much runout on the arbor, now (about 0.040). The motor is dying on it (it slows down all by itself sometimes) and it bogs easily (only 1.5 HP).

I like what I've read so far about the Delta 36-715 (and 716/717). I've also looked at the (not yet shipping) Grizzly G0478 and the Grizzly G1023SL.

Along with those, I've looked at the Powermatic 64 and the Jet that's just like it, the General 50-220C, the Sunhill CT-250T (which is on sale for $695 until May 1).

220V is an option for me albeit an expensive one. My limiter is my budget. I can only spend about $1000 or less. If I have to move up to 220V my budget for the saw goes down by about $150 (electrical panel work).

WWS has the Delta 715 for $799 ($895 delivered) which is well within my budget. I get a, in my view, a good step up from my old worn-out Craftsman table saw with better dust collection, much better accuracy, quieter, a built in blade guard, a much better fence and it's not worn out.

I could step up to the Grizzly G1023SL for another $300 delivered and $150 for electrical work. But that brings the outlay to $1345, about $350 over my budget.

The General 50-220C is $900 at the wood smith store. With shipping it would be slightly over my budget. I'm also a little leery of General International. The Jet and Powermatic saws are also just barely within my budget. If I buy a mobile base for them, I'm at least $100 over budget.

If I buy the Delta 715, I have enough money left over to buy a mobile base for it, too.

I'm thinking of the Sunhill saw, too. The price is very attractive. I just can't find any third party information about the saw.

My needs don't include the heft of a real cabinet saw right now. Maybe in a few years when my cabinet business is going full tilt. But not right now. I think one of these hybrid saw will get me where I need to be for the next couple of years at least.

To the original poster; what is about your current saw that makes you think you need to replace it? Are each of those reasons a want or a need? Can you fix your current saw to meet those needs? Or would it not be cost effective?

I admit I want a new saw as much as I need one. But I've put off buying a new saw for almost 5 years, now. The "slop" in this saw is starting to cost me more money on every project. And the saw prices keep going up.

This frog needs to jump. But which lilly pad? Anyone got any info on that Sunhill saw? Or the General 50-220C?

[tod evans]

bruce, in your budget get the griz cabinet saw, do one more job on your old one then buy wiring for the new one....you`ll never regret getting a cabinet saw......02 tod

[Bruce Lewis]

Thanks, Tod. SWMBO is adamant about the budget but I think I can make the case for not having to buy another saw in a year or two and swing it. It will mean putting off the purchase for probably another month, though.

There seems to be a general consensus that the Grizzly G1023SL is a good buy. I must admit I really like the saw (saw one at another shop here recently).


Sorry to hijack the thread.... :)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Sounds like you answered your own question with your own version of the devil you know versus the one you don't.

[Frederick Rowe]

Howard- I own a new Delta Hybrid 36-715. I bought it to replace my Sears contractors saw. For me it was for better dust collection, a better fence, a smaller footprint in the shop, and the ability to add an outfeed extension table. The Delta is a nice saw, and catching a sale on Amazon brought the cost below any other saw I considered. The T2 fence is a solid fence and every bit as good as a Biesemeyer, albeit slightly shorter. The Delta is smooth, quality is good, and after proper set up, is a highly accurate saw. It is a table mounted trunion, but solid and adjusting mine was easy using the PALS system.

However, I don't think you upgrading from your Delta Contractor is going to yield much in terms of your table saw capability. The new hybrid is probably going to be a bit smoother, and easier to keep clean, but I doubt you'll experience the difference a full 3-5hp cabinet saw would provide.

For me, I ended up with a better fence (although I still use my Incra miter gauge over the factory Delta) and a smoother ride. You said you're happy with your fence and miter, so at most, the hybrid will a bit smoother (and of course a shiny new tool). I recommend that you sit tight, and put your money in a "future cabinet saw fund".

Regardless, enjoy your choice.

[glenn bradley]

I also am struggling with the Sears / Delta question. As if it wasn't bad enough Amazon is blowing the delta out for around $650. I must wonder though if this is a backlog of the saws that got such terrible reviews in late 2005(?). The current reviews reflect delta correcting some QA issues (apparently). Still . .. I am unsure. Oh the pressure; the Amazon blow out sale (plus another 10% off) ends May 8th!!!!

[M. A. Espinoza]

I've also looked at the (not yet shipping) Grizzly G0478
FYI the Grizz is shipping. Some guy on Woodnet posted about rewiring his to 220.

[M. A. Espinoza]

Before Dewalt closed the PC/Delta service center in our city, I asked the Saw tech what he thought of the new Hybred saw. His answer reflected my concern.

The design using multiple tubes do rack because they still have the weight of the motor wanting to twist them as they are moved through an arc as they are cranked over for beveling. This is and has always been the weak spot in Contractor saws.
The mounting location of the trunions has no effect on losing alignment if they are locked down. I will readily agree that being cabinet mounted makes adjusting them easier but as far as holding adjustment the table mounted trunions should stay aligned as long as cabinet mounted does.

Yet everyone will tell you a cabinet saw will keep it's alignment longer than a contractor. Why? Because the cabinet saw does not have multiple pieces to shift, rack and generally develop slop and move around holding the arbor in alignment.

You can accept that or not but it is a fact.
I was curious about the Sears a while back and had a chance to do some checking on a floor model. Checked blade alignment at 90 and 45 and the blade heeled a bit at 45.

The motor is still allowed to hang and is supported by one end of the carriage which is I think why this happens even though its tucked underneath. They came so close to eliminating the issue.

I posted a question about this on another forum and the Sears owners replied heeling wasn't an issue on their saws.

Could have been a poorly assembled floor model or not. Intuitively I think the twin tube, motor hanging is going to require fiddling to keep it in line but owners report the Sears saws are stable.

Probably would have to live with one a while to really know.

[Mike Canaris]

Howard, I had a contractors saw for over 20 years...and everytime I would see/hear some of the guys talk about thier cab saws I would envy them....

So I started looking around...one saw that cut my eye was the General International Hybird saw..it comes with a 2 horse motor and although the trunnions are mounted to the underside of the table ,there is no shafts linking them together like the Sears and Delta...

Fianally after months of deliberations I opted to go a third route..I kept checking the local online 'used' tool sites and I finally found a decent General 350 cab saw..for $750 canadian...it came with a 3 horse motor and the largest trunnions I have ever seen.....

So there's more than one way to skin the cat...:)

[Dave Boxmeyer]

and actually posted my review on the Amazon site. I've been happy with the saw - it certianly meets all of my needs. However, if you do end up going that route, plan on adding a PALS system since getting the blade into alignment was almost impossible without it.

Overall, it's a great value for the price Amazon is offering - but I don't think you are going to see a massive upgrade from your contractor saw. The only comparison I have is a 15 year old Sears contractor saw that my father has in his shop - so it is difficult to compare. However, this isn't a real cabinet saw and if that's what you are looking for it isn't going to meet your needs.

Let me know if you have any specific questions or need some pictures, I'll be happy to help out.

[chester stidham]

Hi I have the sears hybrid 22114 and love it but I do think that the Delta is the same as the Seras 22124 saw I was told that Delta bought Orian wich makes the saws for Sears I downloaded the manual for the Delta and it sure looks the same as the Sears saw. And if you look at pictures of the two side by side you well see the same saw with different badges hand hand wheeles ect. hope this helps you.:D