Any Horse owners?

[Bob Weisner]

Hi:

Anyone on the Sawmill Creek forum own horses? Neighbor down the road would like to get a team of Workhorses , but not sure of which breed they would like to get. I suggested :

1. Belgian,

2. Percheron

3. Shire

4. Cleveland Bay

5. Strawberry Roan

6. Blue Roan.

[tod evans]

bob, we have a quarter horse, my sis has a couple of perchereons and i`ve owned a morgan, foxtrotter, arab and a few mutts.....for working my vote goes to the morgans...02 tod

[Don Baer]

and its spelled "Percheron" if anyone realy cares. The only reason I know that is because the house I grew up on was on Percheron Road...;)

[tod evans]

thanks don, i coppied-n-pasted:)

[Mike Cutler]

Yup.

Own an OTTB ( Off the Track Thoroughbred). We've been rehabbing him for a little over a year, and this boy is ready to go now.

Need a little info to be of any help

1. What type of work is he looking to do?
2. Has he ever worked a hitched team before?
3. When is he looking to start working them? Does he want to train them or purchase an existing team?

One of your selections is a little on the rare side. Those Cleveland Bays aren't common. You can find a lot of Cleveland crosses, but purbreds are harder to find. I know this only because we have a border at our barn that has a newly imported Cleveland Bay Stallion from England in the barn. The American Cleveland Bay Society has already been out to look at him for approval. Very pretty horses. Easy going, good ground manners. Big ears.:D

Percherons and Shires are very nice, but you could probably get a working team of Belgians for less than a team of Shires or Percherons.
He might consider a Freisan if he wants a little more style and pizazz.

Where are you located? There are a few auctions that still go on in the country where horses can be still be purchased. They can actually be purchased fairly inexpensively depending on the auction. You have to be prepared to outbid the slaughter guys though.
The Amish dump a lot of working horses at the auction in New Holland Pa. Your neighbor would have to take an experienced person with him though, but it's always a gamble. There are other auctions around the country too.

I hope he already has the tack. It could end up costing him more than horses:eek: DAMHIKT ;)

[Bill Lewis]

What about Clydesdales? How about mules? A good team of mules will outwork most horses.

I don't think I'd get a horse or a team from an auction. There's a reason they're there, and they're probably only sound because they're pumped up on Bute. You can get some very nice OTTB's, some that have never even been raced.

Any more advice I'd have to ask my wife, she's was the horse professional (still teashes and trains on the side) until she joined the corporate world where the pay is better.

[tod evans]

What about Clydesdales? How about mules? A good team of mules will outwork most horses.

I don't think I'd get a horse or a team from an auction. There's a reason they're there, and they're probably only sound because they're pumped up on Bute. You can get some very nice OTTB's, some that have never even been raced.

Any more advice I'd have to ask my wife, she's was the horse professional (still teashes and trains on the side) until she joined the corporate world where the pay is better.

we sell breeding mules to the tourists here in the sticks....:)

[Steve Clardy]

We have 5 registered Morgans. Good for riding, pulling light loads, buggies, etc.

[Bob Weisner]

I think they are looking for a breed that would be good in the woods for pulling a wagon or sled when they are hauling in Maple Sap for their Maple Syrup business.

[Mike Cutler]

we sell breeding mules to the tourists here in the sticks....:)

So what's the cost for a breeding mule stallion. I want a proven breeder, with a history of live"foals"?..... what is a baby mule called anyway?:D :D ;)

[Mike Cutler]

I think they are looking for a breed that would be good in the woods for pulling a wagon or sled when they are hauling in Maple Sap for their Maple Syrup business.

I like Belgians. Nice horses, easy to obtain. They may not need a "team", but horses don't do so well as singles, with no pasture mates.

[Larry Klaaren]

I don't think I'd get a horse or a team from an auction. There's a reason they're there, and they're probably only sound because they're pumped up on Bute.

If that happens and it can be proved, some vet who signed the health certificate would lose the use of his license for a while. That's participation in a fraudulent action. I know it does happen, but it's rarer than people think. If you buy privately, you can get a soundness exam by a veterinarian suggested by your insurance company, if you are going to insure it. I'm sure there are other ways to find a vet qualified to do that exam, it's worth the expense. I think t's called a "Pre-sale" or "Buyers" soundness exam. Depending on the level of exam you want, they will do radiographs of the joints and ultra-sound, or just test the joints with the appropriate manual tools and joint flexes.

The Amish I used to do vet work for go the "Amish Auction" at Waverly, Iowa. They have different reasons for trading and selling. Some horses don't get along with each other, but are fine with other horses, others are good work horses for a wagon, but not the right conformation for plowing and they need to get a plowing horse, etc. They also mostly know each other or the same people, so they don't try to pull "stunts" at those sales. They are pretty good at helping their buddy and bidding you up if they figure out you want the horse.

You may want to look into the soundness exam and buy privately. If you go to an auction, you may want to be familiar with what the auction is and is not responsible for and whether the animals are tested (for diseases) and have health papers.

Larry

[Bill Lewis]

Listen to Larry! What he's offering is very good advise. Hard to ignore that kind of free advise from a large animal vet.

My wife has alway recomended the exact same thing as Larry. Get the horse "vetted"! Never buy a horse that you haven't had checked out first and if there's any doubt at all, or for extra insurance, do the x-rays. It doesn't hurt to also have an experienced horse professional that you trust, and has no connection with the sale to look at the horse. Ride it, drive it, watch it go, check out it's temperment. The stuff that a vet won't usually do for you. Expect to pay them for their time.

You can also work with a horse broker, but they're working for themselves and the owners. Not that they are going to necessarily sell you a bum steer, they do have a reputation to uphold, but they'll cost you more to use them.

Health certificates may not be required for all auctions though. It would certainly be better if they were. There are horse/livestock auctions and then there are auctions selling horses, and I have to believe there is a difference.

Of course, all of this is somewhat determined geographically. In some parts of the country you can still find decent horses for next to nothing (<$1k), so there's less financial risk, unless you get too attached and can't let it go if it's not worth keeping or letting it be a just a pasture mate. In our area, you'd be hard pressed to find a horse for less than $5k. Even for a relative "baby" that is barely saddle broke.

BTW, tod is messing with you, in general Mules can't be bred, because a mule is a cross between a horse and a donkey. http://www.ruralheritage.com/mule_paddock/mule_whatis.htm

Bob, I'd stick with the drafts that have been mentioned, or draft mules for the kind of work you are requireing, even possibly some draft/TB crosses would work well. Morgans are really great all round horses like Steve said, but just not stout enough to do any serious pulling. Think crossover SUV vs. full size pickup.

[Larry Klaaren]

Listen to Larry! What he's offering is very good advise. Hard to ignore that kind of free advise from a large animal vet.

Just so it's clear, I was a dairy vet. Our Amish clients were very active in the horse selling and trading business.


It doesn't hurt to also have an experienced horse professional that you trust, and has no connection with the sale to look at the horse. Ride it, drive it, watch it go, check out it's temperment. The stuff that a vet won't usually do for you. Expect to pay them for their time.

A veterinarian is only qualified by license to make a judgment on the health of the animal, and there are legalities about how even that can be stated. To make subjective judgments in that capacity would not be appropriate, and an unethical interference in the buy/sell process. He/she would definitely not put a judgment on any thing other than health issues in writing. BTW, the insurance company will sometimes pay for the soundness exam.


Health certificates may not be required for all auctions though. It would certainly be better if they were. There are horse/livestock auctions and there are auctions selling horses, and I have to believe there is a difference.

Yep. On the cattle side it's all about whether the cattle are sold as breeding (stock) animals or for finishing and slaughter. Breeding stock that are going to enter a herd need a health certificate and some testing. I am not up on the particulars of that part on the horse side. It may also make a difference whether the animals came from the other side of a state line, or the auction has the owners prepare them for interstate travel. You need a valid health certificate to cross state lines in most cases. A local veterinarian would know the particulars in your state.

Enjoy!
Larry

[Bill Lewis]

It may also make a difference whether the animals came from the other side of a state line, or the auction has the owners prepare them for interstate travel. You need a valid health certificate to cross state lines in most cases. A local veterinarian would know the particulars in your state.

Enjoy!
Larry

Very likely true.
Around here you can't even enter a horse in to a show without a valid coggin's (sp?) aka potomac fever test.

[Robert Mickley]

Well I'm no horse person. There are horses here on the farm though, all mutts except the haflinger. Cous has a large pony that came from an amish farmer. we use him to pull a wagon and he just loves it, he wants no part of a saddle but put the harness on him and he gets all kind of excited. He loves to pull that cart. I have worked with an amish that logged with a team of Percheron's. That was fun and I have toyed with the idea of getting either a Percheron or a Belgian. One thing I did learn from the amish was if your going out to work the horse that day feed them some spelts instead of oats in the morning. They get more energy out of the spelts. Feed them spelts in the morning your going to the field all day. A lot of the amish feed spelts all winter.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I give up Robert .....what is spelts?...........I started working with horses when I was 11 in Blanding, Utah.................worked with them on and off through HS. I've fed them a lot of different things but what is spelts?

[Larry Klaaren]

I give up Robert .....what is spelts?...........

I had to look it up. The dictionary definition is "rhymizones".

Hope that clears it up.

In Websters it said . . . "A primitive strain of wheat, now seldom grown."

I think the Amish mean wheat when they say speltz. They speak German amongst themselves. They didn't know I could understand a little bit of it - took two years in college. That was fun. Their language was a "low dialect" that originated in Switzerland. Since they have been isolated over here (as far as language goes) their terminology has taken some of it's own twists and turns as well as their pronunciation and diction.

Larry

[Mike Cutler]

I wasn't trying to steer anyone towards, or away from an auction in my initial post. I was only putting it out there for a resource.

The info by Larry and Bill is right on. The Amish turn over their teams on a regualr basis, and for any number of reasons as pointed out. It doesn't make them bad people, it's just that they use their teams for daily work and have to decide in advance whether or not a team or a single will remain sound for the season. It's an odds on bet that no one other than the Amish are looking to work their teams for sun up to sundown on a daily basis, except for their religous days of observance. There isn't a lot of rest ime for a working farm horse.
If they decide to replace a team. They need to get their animals to the auctions "In good flesh" to make them saleable to the slaughter industry, or to a private individual. They can't wait until they are lame
Good, sound, trained working horses can be bought at an auctions, but you must be experienced, or hire someone that is experienced.

To support this I would offer the story of our horse.
Our horse is an off the track thoroughbred. He was purchased for less than the price of a good contractor saw. He won 4 races as a two year old, and placed or showed in all of the rest. Two episodes of "Exercise induced Pulmonary Hemmorage(bleeding from the lungs) ended his racing career as a three year old, and made him worthless.
This horse has a pedigree that includes Seattle Slew, Secratariat and AP Indy within the first four generations. Two Triple Crown winners, 4 Belmont winners, three horse of the year, and the most expensive breeding thoroughbred stallions in America, and this horse has absolutley zero value. He is worth the price of meat.
A complete neophyte could safely handle this horse. His ground manners are impeccable, and he is completely halter broke. You can find good horses, but it's a risk. Just a little story to share is all.

Dang Bill, why did you have to go and expose Tod? I was really lookin' forward to owning a "Stallion Mule":D :D ;)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Larry...........when packing elk on the horses and mules...........we often grained them in elk camp. Talk about personality changes. Not grain fed, they were pretty docile.........with grain we knew we'd have to watch them closely!

[Tom Saurer]

I've grown up around horses. Whatever you do, have a good, trustworthy horse person look at each horse. Anyone can be taken, but it happens a lot less to the experienced people.

I grew up going to horse auctions and my family has gotten some good horses from them. But I will always prefer buying privately. You have more time to interact with the horse and the owner.

[Larry Klaaren]

Larry...........when packing elk on the horses and mules...........we often grained them in elk camp. Talk about personality changes. Not grain fed, they were pretty docile.........with grain we knew we'd have to watch them closely!

Grain includes complex sugers (unless it's been fermented), which are broken down into . . . less complex sugars . . . which some people allege contributes to hyperactivity.

If they are on grass, there's a whole nother digestive process that is used to digest the grass. BTW, you can't just switch them from day to day, it has to be a gradual process.

I would prefer to see people buy a horse or livestock from the owner without going through an auction facility. Get their word for it. When the animals are congregated, there may be exposure to disease (I have to be careful not to make an absolute statement. This is my disclaimer.) It may be very difficult to trace back ownership of the horse if there is a problem if you buy it at auction. It's may be hard to get a real valid sense about the animal's temperament and fractiousness in that situation. And it is possible that an owner doped up a horse and showed up as late as possible and ran it through the barn, as someone said earlier.

On the other hand, the lame horses are usually sold privately, and they are sometimes sold by people who can "see ya coming" and talk you out of your "horse sense" and convince you that you don't need to get them to sign anything, get an exam, etc. etc.

There are people who are able to sense what's going on with horses. Technology has its' place, but there are also people who just "get it" when they are around a horse. Insurance companies won't take their word for it though. So . . . . use your own "horse sense" and whatever else is available to you.

Larry

[Mike Cutler]

Larry...........when packing elk on the horses and mules...........we often grained them in elk camp. Talk about personality changes. Not grain fed, they were pretty docile.........with grain we knew we'd have to watch them closely!

Got to watch out for Alfalfa also. 16% protien. Too much to a horse not used to it, and you got a rocketship on your hands, or even worse the potential for colic.

We use "Horse 10". 10% protien for our horse. He doesn't get much grain either. You really have to pay attention to the contents on the back of the bag, or you'll have an 1100 lb, 4 year old, that's had too much "candy" and "soda pop" on your hands.
For future info, if needed. Blue Seal has an excellent website for info on grains. What is really interesting about their site, is that even though they are in the business of selling grain. They don't encourage indiscriminate use of grain as a daily feed, They contend that grain is supplement for horses in work, and that free access to quality pasture is best. Of course Foals and Mares require some different care due to pregnancy and the proper development of the foal.

Interesting stuff, but a little outside of the original post. I apologize.

[Robert Mickley]

I give up Robert .....what is spelts?...........I started working with horses when I was 11 in Blanding, Utah.................worked with them on and off through HS. I've fed them a lot of different things but what is spelts?

Small grain like wheat or oats, more protien in it. And when the Amish around here say spelts they mean spelts not oats or wheat. Brother rasies some for a cash crop and he feeds some of it too in the winter. Has a grain mill out in Toledo that buys strictly orgainc grains and he is always looking for organic spelts.

[Gil Mitchell]

we've got three perchons and a quarter horse. I done carriage rides, weddings , parades up untill about two years ago. had to quit due to bad back and knees. think i'm gona take the team to the sale this summer , to much work just to watch them run in the pasture.:D

[Larry Klaaren]

Before I get more off-topic on the off-topic topic, buy the horse you like, if you don't know the horse business, get someone who does to help you. You may want a soundness exam depending on the economics involved and whether or not you insure it and how much you insure it for.

I found some information about spelt. I was wrong. But at least I'm man enough to admit it boldly.;)

Spelt is a sub-species of wheat, with a larger grain and a darker color. It's wheat, but it's not what we think of when we say wheat. The people who write about it differentiate between the lines of wheat with Latin and German names for the lines. The spelt wheat line was developed about 3,000 years ago in the middle east. The reason that wheat beat it out in North America is because wheat has a much higher production per acre. Very little has been grown in the US in the last 60 years, but it is making a come back in the organic market. Guess what - it's a great horse food.

For an unknown reason, people who are intolerant of wheat can often digest it, even though it is also high in gluten. Very high sugar content.

In Italy it is a common recipe ingredient. (Reminds me of Durham wheat which is a darker wheat raised in the Dakotas for pasta.)

As near as I can tell, there are only a couple of localities in North America where spelt is raised, beyond the occasional farmer who produces organic foods in a vertically integrated marketing plan. One is in Ohio where there is a production facility. Another is in eastern Washington, and apparently there is an area or two in Canada where it is raised. It has an association with German cultures (like the . . . Amish?).

It's not much for wood working, although the grain is interesting.:D :rolleyes: You'll get it later, you'll laugh then.

Larry

[Bill Lewis]

Larry, I got it!