Uh-oh, the sky is falling!

[Lee Schierer]

Well it isn't actually the sky, but my shop ceiling is sagging.

Last night my neighbor stopped over so we could trim up a raised panel door I was helping him with. We got to talking about the remodeling job he is in the middle of. He was telling me about some of the poor quality workmanship he had found during the demolition. Since part of my house was made by the same builder we were comparing notes. During the discussion he noted that the beam supporting mny shop ceiling joists was had been spliced together. The span is about 19 feet. They had nailed together a beam made up of 2 X 8's only none of themm were full length. All three of them had been made up of shorter pieces. The three splices were all within the center 8 feet of the beam. As we were examining the beam I noted that the center board had also cracked about 3 feet away from the splice in that board.

It was then that I noted a sag in the beam. When I measured it it was saging about 1-1/2" in the center. There is a storage area above that part of the ceiling where we keep christmas decorations mostlty along with a few other odds and ends. Not tons of weight, but some weight nonetheless. The ceiling joists are all 2 X 8's spanning half the width of the room with an overlap above this beam.

What I am thinking of doing is jacking up the beam to remove the sag plus maybe a little bit more. Then adding an additional 2 X 10 along one side only. To add one on the second side I would have to completely remove half of my suspended ceiling, shortening all the tiles and the supports.

I'd like to replace the entire beam, but that will be considerable work and may cause additional damage leaving the ceiling joists unsupported. Plus I still can't get in a full length beam.

Here's my question. I can sister on another board on one side pretty easily, but I can't make it span the full length because there would be no way to get it in place. If I support it on one end with a cripple stud and make it a few inches shorter than the total span, then screw it and glue it to the existing beams will it provide the needed support or am I just wasting time and wood.

Another option would be to cut strips of 3/4" plywood and glue and screw them to the existing beam and then add the new 2 X 10. Obviosly plywood is only 8 feet long, but has great lateral stiffness. The new 2 X 10 would also be glued and screwed through the plywood into the existing beam. I'm thinking 5/16 X 4" or 5" lag screws with washers so they don't dig in. Or should I run carriage bolts all the way through all the pieces of wood?

No selling the house and moving is not an option.

[tod evans]

lee, call the lumber yard and get a quote on a lvl...02 tod

[Lee DeRaud]

lee, call the lumber yard and get a quote on a lvl...02 todBut first figure out if/how you can get it into the room. DAMHIKT

(I just about lost a mouthful of coffee on the keyboard: read "lvl" as "level".)

[Lee Schierer]

lee, call the lumber yard and get a quote on a lvl...02 tod
I'm not sure I can get a full length piece in place. I have the family room wall on one end and teh outside wall of the house on the other.

As I understand LVL's they need to be supported on the ends. Can you screw an LVL to the existing beam or would your thought be to replace the existing beam with the LVL?

[Barry O'Mahony]

Lee,

Don't they do framing inspections in your area? There is no way this would pass. The builder is a hack.

Even if these were full-length 2x8 (and 19' ones are easy to find), I don't think they'd be enough to support those ceiling joists. I'd find out what the proper beam sizing would be, and have it installed.

Tod's suggestion of an LVL sounds like a good approach. A contractor should have no problem installing one. Typically, temporary walls are built to support the ceiling joists, the old "beam" is removed, siding is temporarily removed and a hole is cut in the sheathing, and the beam slid into place.

[Julio Navarro]

If the LVL for that span is deeper than the existing beam and you cant afford the lower headroom, you could place two shallow LVL's a 3rd of the way across the ceiling so you would in effect have three beams running paralell to each other and perpendicular to the ceiling joists. Along with adding the beams you could splint the sagging beam as you mentioned though plywood would be useless where the loads ar so high, flitch a 1/4" steel plate to the sagging beam and then scab a 2x8 to the beam. The same company that supplies your lolly columns or steel I beams for your area can supply a 20'(+/-) flitch plate with bolt holes already drilled at alternating spacing.

Alternatly, you could sandwich two steel plates on either side of the sagging 2x's. Make sure that the steel plates extend at least 24" past both existing splices, a 48" steel plate basically then bolt with through bolts. The same comapny can supply the beams, pre drilled

Be sure to underpin the beam. Ive used a car jack to lift a sagging mid section. even an adjustable lolly column can be used.

All of this should, of course, be checked with a structural engineer.

[Dave Brandt]

They can lag the old beam into the new lvl beam(s). I just had this done in my remodel. The old beam was pieced together like yours and sagging a full 1 1/2". We built a temporary wall to support the adjacent joists and installed the first of three 14" X 32' lvls. Then we jacked up the original beam and screwed it to the lvl. Then installed the other two lvls and used joist hangers to tie in the adjacent joists. No more sag here! Have more help than I did (we had four people), those long beams are pretty heavy!

[tod evans]

lee, yet another option is to build what we call a "bailey truss beam", these are a sandwich of plywood and dimentional lumber glued and nailed together in a truss configuration. the beauty of these beams is that they can be built in place but the ends do need to be supported! .02 tod

[Dan Oelke]

Lee - Look at getting a full length beam in - either to sister the existing mess or to replace it. Replacing is nice in that you don't have to worry about wider or deeper beam and needing more space.

I am guessing that your existing beam is under the joists - is that right? That makes sistering in something a relatively easy option because then you don't need temporary walls to hold up the joists while you do the work. Just a 10-ton jack and a 4x4 to push up the existing beam.

In any case - a full length - especially LVL is nice in that it is much stronger than any pieced together system - unless you have the space and access to build a truss type system. An outside wall makes it relatively easy - pull off a couple of pieces of siding and fire up the saw. Just have lots of hands available to help slide it into place.

A steel plate would also be a good option - you might even be able to get a full length piece in there without a hole in the wall - the steel will bend a little and it might be enough to let you get it in place and then tip it up against the beam. A couple of 3/16" pieces would add quite a bit of stiffness to the beam.

[Joe Chritz]

I am a residental builder in MI but only occasional do work as it is not a full time gig for me. (got it when I started building my house)

Tod is correct that an LVL beam is idea for your situation. If you have intentions of staying in the house and want piece of mind for support up top you should replace with or add an LVL. Lagging to the existing beam makes the job easier but adds minimal strength. It certainly doesn't hurt and would be a way I would tackle it.

I don't have a span table handy but properly supported and nailed a field nailed built up 2x8 is probably adequate for the span with no storage. There should be at least one post for that install to be built correctly.

A fix that is not as good but would work would be to get a piece of 1/4 or 1/2 plate steel 7" wide and several feet longer than the splces that are sagging and through boltiing it. If parts of the nail up are cracking already I would be concerned about that fix as the strength of the members are compromised.

I would fix that ASAP as once they go they can continue at any time. Jack it up with a screw type post support and sister on another piece until a perm fix at least. It will probably last another 50 years but could collapse tomorrow.

Joe

[Jim Becker]

A steel plate would also be a good option - you might even be able to get a full length piece in there without a hole in the wall - the steel will bend a little and it might be enough to let you get it in place and then tip it up against the beam. A couple of 3/16" pieces would add quite a bit of stiffness to the beam.

This was what I was going to suggest...'saw them do that on TOH awhile back to get some joists back in line with something akin to "plumb". They jacked up the beam/joists and then applied the sheet steel "sisters" to the beam with lags. Once it was in place, the jacks were removed and the steel held the sandwich at it's "new level".

[Barry O'Mahony]

I don't have a span table handy but properly supported and nailed a field nailed built up 2x8 is probably adequate for the span with no storage. There should be at least one post for that install to be built correctly.Of course. A center post helps tremendously. The strength requirement is reduced by a factor of 4 when you add a center post.

One thing also to keep in mind, if you go the new beam route, is that you can save headroom by (instead placing the beam underneath the joists) cutting the joists short enough so that the new beam can be raised up between them, and hanging the joists off the beam with joist hangers.

[Bart Leetch]

lee, yet another option is to build what we call a "bailey truss beam", these are a sandwich of plywood and dimentional lumber glued and nailed together in a truss configuration. the beauty of these beams is that they can be built in place but the ends do need to be supported! .02 tod


Thats what we call a box beam here. My Dad's shop had 2 32' box beams constructed this way 1 at each end of a 32' x 32' truss roof built 40 years ago & going strong. I would use a hydraulic jack & jack things back up where they belong slowly & then build a temporary structure to support what the beam supports & then take out the the old beam & build the box beam in place. Using glue & screws or as we did glue & staples.

[Jeff Horton]

For a 40 lb per sq. ft. load the Architectural Standards book calls for 3 - 2x12's. So your well undersized. I like the "bailey truss beam" and the metal plate ideas. Those are probably the best solutions assuming you can't put a column under it.

LVL's are great but it would hard to ever put in one in most houses.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I am a big fan of steel in residential construction.

I have owned several large very old homes with all manner of problems that steel beams have helped me solve. It's amazing how many really good uses there are for a good steel beam or sistered half inch plate stock. It's cheap too.

When I built my shop I put it under a flat roof with a recreational deck on top - and I had serious height restrictions. The deck & the shop are both 20 x 40. Head room was a problem as I couldn't go high enough to use big joists. I had to span that 40' with no where to conviently lay a support pillars as I needed the room. A 19 KIPS steel 8" wide flange was just what the doctor ordered. It's rock solid. I have had over 60 people on the deck at once and the steel beam keeps it dead flat. I have had a 3' snow load and heavy spring rains and it stays dead flat. The beam doubles as a sweet hoist/ crane running the center of my shop.

If you can get a steel beam in your shop it'll hold more than wood framing, take up less space, and will be more useful.