More plane questions.......

[Brian Hale]

Hey Yall!

How can i set my 4 1/2 smoother for a fine shaving? If i slide the frog forward to close the throat, then the bottom of the frog extends into the throat opening and the blade isn't supported near the cutting edge. With the frog set flush (like it's supposed to be?) with the throat opening, I've got ~1/8" between the edge of the blade and the front of the opening. Don't i want that to be a very small gap, 1/16" or so?

2nd question..... What should i use on the sole of the plane to keep it slick, wax? Won't that wear off onto the wood and give me finishing trouble, or am i just being simple minded?

Thanks!!

Brian :)

[Kent Fitzgerald]

With the frog set flush (like it's supposed to be?) with the throat opening, I've got ~1/8" between the edge of the blade and the front of the opening. Don't i want that to be a very small gap, 1/16" or so?

Brian, I think you've identified The Big Limitation of the Bailey Plane Design, and the major reason for the popularity of thick replacement irons, bevel-up planes, the Lee Valley frog design, wooden planes, etc, etc.

Regarding waxing, dedicated sole waxers generally maintain that a light application of wax, buffed well, will not cause transfer problems.

[Tyler Howell]

Is it nice and clean between the frog and plane bed????
Try some card stock shims under the frog.

canners wax (parafin) works great cheap abd diesn't muck up the wood.

[Brian Hale]

Thanks Ken. I was afraid of that. :( What about making some shims to sit under the blade? I'm sure i can find some .020" SST at work and the sheet metal guys could stamp it into any shape i need. I guessI'lll need to watch out for the adjustment arm to make sure it'll still grab the cap iron....

Brian :)

[Brian Hale]

Gosh Tyler, we had the same thought at the same time!! ;)

Kinda scary, huh?????? :eek:

[James Owen]

Hey Yall!

How can i set my 4 1/2 smoother for a fine shaving? If i slide the frog forward to close the throat, then the bottom of the frog extends into the throat opening and the blade isn't supported near the cutting edge. With the frog set flush (like it's supposed to be?) with the throat opening, I've got ~1/8" between the edge of the blade and the front of the opening. Don't i want that to be a very small gap, 1/16" or so?

2nd question..... What should i use on the sole of the plane to keep it slick, wax? Won't that wear off onto the wood and give me finishing trouble, or am i just being simple minded?

Thanks!!

Brian :)

Brian,

Easy one first: I use an ordinary, cheap wax candle on the soles of my planes and have yet to have any problems or interference with finishing.

Not as easy one next: The frog on my pre-1910 vintage Stanley #4-1/2 is moved forward, so that there is approx 1/32 inch gap between the (Stanley replacement-type LN) iron/chipbreaker and the front edge of the mouth. Even though there is some unsupported iron there, I have had zero problems with chatter or with getting super fine shavings from most domestic woods, ranging from construction pine and Douglas fir to red oak. My #5-1/2 (1920s vintage) is set up pretty much the same way (except that it has the original Sweetheart iron and chipbreaker), and it gives the same kind of results (I use it more as a panel/large smoothing plane than as a wide jack plane.). With a freshly honed iron, both of theses planes will even take nice clean shavings off pine end grain. The last couple of red oak boards that I have planed have been pretty uncooperative for most of my other planes, but both of these (the #4-1/2 and the #5-1/2) have been able to slice off quite beautiful "angel hair" shavings with almost zero tear-out.

While having unsupported iron is certainly not the best situation in theory, in practice, I have found that it makes realtively little or no difference -- at least not with these two planes. Hope this of some use to you.

James

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Hi Brian. It is perfectly normal for the blade to look like it is loosing it's support when you move it away from where it looks like it is supported by the sole as well. The bevel of the blade is what accounts for the "it doesn't matter factor" Really you need to move your frog back from the edge of the sole to get total support. So to answer your question, the blade does not and does not need total support all the way to the wood. It has the same support througout its range unless you back it all the way off and touch the bevel of the blade to the rear of the mouth opening, where you will gain some un-needed support. Peter

[Derek Cohen]

<I>How can i set my 4 1/2 smoother for a fine shaving? If i slide the frog forward to close the throat, then the bottom of the frog extends into the throat opening and the blade isn't supported near the cutting edge. With the frog set flush (like it's supposed to be?) with the throat opening, I've got ~1/8" between the edge of the blade and the front of the opening.</I>

Hi Brian

It sounds as if the mouth of your plane is wider than most. You should be able to set the plane up for a fine shaving with the original blade.

If you move the frog forward to use the original <I>thin</I> Stanley blade, then flex will indeed be an issue if the blade is unsupported. However, one of the thicker aftermarket blades should take care of this matter. LN (the "Stanley Replacement" version), Hock, Academy, Smoothcut - all should aid in this regard.

My own #4 1/2, a Type 12 (identical to the Type 11 but with the high knob) is set up with the Clifton 1/8" thick blade and stayset chipbreaker. This <I>just</I> fits, suggesting that the mouth of my plane is also slightly larger than usual as this combination should be too thick for most Stanley planes.

I think the performance is excellent - for a Stanley.

Here is a fine .0005" shaving on Cherry, with a tearout-free surface:

<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Cherry.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

And another tearout free result on Maple, this time with .001" shavings:

<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Maple.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

But it left much tearout on Camphor in spite of .0005" shavings:

<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Camphor.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

Camphor requires a high cutting angle (60 degrees or better).

<I>2nd question..... What should i use on the sole of the plane to keep it slick, wax? Won't that wear off onto the wood and give me finishing trouble, or am i just being simple minded? </I>

I use just a swipe of an ordinary candle. This works well and I have never had a problem with finishes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

Relative to the wax, wiping down your project with mineral spirits will also take care of any residual wax that may have transfered from the plane to the workpiece.

[Hank Knight]

What about making some shims to sit under the blade? I'm sure i can find some .020" SST at work and the sheet metal guys could stamp it into any shape i need. I guessI'lll need to watch out for the adjustment arm to make sure it'll still grab the cap iron....
Brian :)

Brian, shimming your blade will work O.K. You might try using some brass shim stock rather than SST. Your blade will bed easier on the brass than on the SST (I.E., you'll get better contact between the blade and the softer brass).

Derek's suggestion that you look at a good after market blade is the best answer to your problem. After market LN, Hock or Clifton's are thicker than the OEM Stanley blades and fill up the gap in plane's mouth without having to advance the frog. Plus the additional thickness reduces blade flex and chatter, and the modern steels used in most of these blades hold an edge longer than the OEM Stanley blade. Try it; for about 30 bucks, you'll think you have a brand new plane.

[Brian Hale]

Thanks Guys!!!!

I should have mentioned that I'm using a new Hock blade as the one that came with the plane had apparently been ground on a surface grinder, making it quite thin. With the Hock blade installed and frog set flush with the opening, I've got a consistent .060" gap. Seems pretty big to me. I'm thinkig the mouth may have been ground wider?

I bumped the frog forward till i got a gap around .010" but now the plane doesn't seem to cut as consistently as before. I get much shorter shavings and it seems to skip around the surface of the board (I'm testing on some straight grained birch). My LV BUJ takes a nice long shaving so the board is flat.

Running low on time tonight so I'll go at it again tomorrow and see what i can come up with. Of the few planes i have, this 4 1/2 just feels right in my hand so I'm anxious to get it smoothing correctly......

Brian :)

[Paul Atwood]

I consider it indispensible and the block I bought years ago serves me daily. Almost never pick up a plane without giving it a few strokes, it is amazing how much difference it make, especially on an iron plane, but it is noticeable on wood bodied planes too. No finishing issues that I've noticed and at the rate I consume it, it probably costs me all of $.02/year. I'll have to pick up a fresh block in 20 years or so.

Another tool I noted in this thread that I consider indispensable: digital calipers. If you don't have a pair (and you don't need to spend more than $20-30) you don't know what you're missing.

hope this helps

Paul (and yes it's my first post to this great forum)

[Mike Wenzloff]

Welcome, Paul.

Take care, Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

Don't i want that to be a very small gap, 1/16" or so?


...With the Hock blade installed and frog set flush with the opening, I've got a consistent .060" gap. Seems pretty big to me. I'm thinkig the mouth may have been ground wider?

fwiw, 1/16" is about 60 thou...

It would seem to me you should set the frog back to where you were before moving it so far forward. It seems as if even with the Hock blade you are getting chatter or at least unacceptable blade flex which will cause the blade to flex down under pressure but unexpectedly spring back causing the iron to leave the wood surface.

The above assumes the frog is very securely tightened down.

Another possibility is that by closing the mouth to about 10 thou, you may be trying to take too thick a shaving, the sole is not flat, or a few other possibilities. With a narrow mouth, if you try taking too thick a shaving it will hit the chipbreaker and, well, perhaps break the shaving.

A super tight mouth was not on Stanley's mind on these planes. It cantilevers the frog too much. Move it back. The following Stanley Handyman plane, who's sole is in the same condition as the sides you see, using a stock blade took a 1.5 thou shaving with the frog set flush. Trust me, there's a gap in front of the blade.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/handyman/slides/handy_0001.jpg

My wife sharpened the blade to 2k grit before she took that shaving. The plane has since been cleaned up and it looks nicer and is easier to push without the rust <g>. But it doesn't work any better.

There are a few other pictures of this "wonderful" plane here: http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/handyman/index.html

Take care, Mike

[Steve Clardy]

I consider it indispensible and the block I bought years ago serves me daily. Almost never pick up a plane without giving it a few strokes, it is amazing how much difference it make, especially on an iron plane, but it is noticeable on wood bodied planes too. No finishing issues that I've noticed and at the rate I consume it, it probably costs me all of $.02/year. I'll have to pick up a fresh block in 20 years or so.

Another tool I noted in this thread that I consider indispensable: digital calipers. If you don't have a pair (and you don't need to spend more than $20-30) you don't know what you're missing.

hope this helps

Paul (and yes it's my first post to this great forum)


Welcome Paul!!