Need Table Saw Advice

[Darren Vass]

I'm new to machine woodworking. Have been doing many odds and ends around the house over the the years including some poorly built furniture and speakers. As I've said in previous posts, I'm starting up my workshop in my basement and was able to use my table saw last night to cut some thin strips of wood for molding around a door.

I only have a cheap $170 Sears table saw. I did not know better at the time of purchase. I noticed that even with a 60 toothed carbide blade from Menards, there were saw marks on the piece. I used the gripper to advance the piece. These were 4 foot strips and were rip cuts into regular 2x4 pieces. My ruler showed that the blade was perpendicular to the table and square to the fence. I did need to stop the cut several times as I slipped the gripper backwards on the wood in order to push it further.

A person I met recently, who teaches shop, told me that the cuts on this direct drive Sears table saw will always be inaccurate. He recommended I make cuts 1/16 inch over and use the router or jointer to true up the edge. He also recommeded that I get the Grizzly G0444 saw instead. He said that this saw would cut true. I don't think I could sell the Sears saw. I'm not sure how I would get the 280# Grizzly down into my basement. Does it come apart to at least 100# pieces? Sigh!

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Mike Cutler]

Darren.

The Grizzly saw that you refer to does break down. In fact it is shipped in a big box, and the fence may be shipped in another box.
The heaviest component will be the main table assy. This assy has the center section, and the guts assembled as one integrated package. The enclosure is also already bolted to it. It will weigh 150-200 lbs depending on the amount of cast iron. Generally you have to assemble the stand, mount the main section on the stand, hang the motor off of the back, and then assemble and mount the fence and rails.
Of the 280lbs weight. it breaks down into smaller weights. Main table assy, motor, extension wings, and fence. Definitely doable to get one into your basement.

If I were to chose one of the Grizzly contractor Table saws. I would lean towards the G0444Z, or the G0576. reason being is that they have a slightly larger motor, and cast iron extension wings. The G0576 is also a left tilt, which is nice, imho. More weight equals greater stability in my opinion. Both of these saws will break down to manageable weights, infact they are shipped disassembled like the G0444.

I think that the extra cost associated with either of these tablesaws would be money well spent.

[tod evans]

darren, don`t jump on any saw just yet! please spend some time reading and if you`re able driving some of the offerings on the market. you very well could save yourself from regretting another purchase.....02 tod

[Reg Mitchell]

Ditto Tods remarks about holding off for a bit. For a couple of reasons. No. 1 is you will give yourself a little time to learn about the different saws. No. 2 keep an eye on the classified sections There is always someone up gradeing to a higher quality saw and the one they are selling is not always a bad say it's just the person selling it has moved to another level and requires anothe saw to perform a different array of taskes.....same as yourself.
Keep looking round in SMC and see what ppl say about things. There is very much talent in these rooms and any one of them is willing to answer a question and happy to do so. :)

[John Anderson]

Darren, I'll second, uh third, the suggestion to hold off buying a new saw. I used a Craftsman direct drive for about 10 years before upgrading. I learned it's drawbacks and how to overcome them, and am proud to say, built some rather nice things with it.

There are a lot of woodworking tools on the market. Before purchasing, I would personally look them over and pick what you like. Listen to others, but remember you are the one that will be paying for, and using them.

Go slow...

[John Kain]

Hey now, I'm STILL using my Craftsman contractor TS. It works for what I need it to do; but without a planer or jointer, it is difficult (but doable) to get results to be proud of. I'll get a jointer before upgrading my TS. I'll get a planer before upgrading my TS. I'll get a bandsaw.............you get the idea.:D

[Mike Cutler]

Darren.

In my initial response, I was a little to focused on the replacement question, and didn't really read the entire post.

Many people have been producing some outstanding stuff on Craftsman Table saws for years. The limitations are usually lack of power for the thick stuff, and the fence is "less than adequate".

The blade marks that you are getting may possibly be fixed by the following;

1. Technique. You want to try to not stop the piece from moving while it is in contact with the blade. Even on higher quality saws you can get blade marks and burning if you do this.

2. The Fence. Is at least 27" long. When you measure from the blade to the fence, at both points on the blade, you are looking at only about 20-30% of the area that the wood contacts the fence. If your fence has any sort of a bow in the face,the points at either ends of the fence may be at a different measurement from the blade than the middle. With a 4' long piece of material the fence has to equidistant along it's entire length from the blade. Some people even set the back of the fence a few thou' extra out to minimize burning.
Make sure that your fence is dead flat across the entire length on the face. Shim it in or out as required. It has to be flat. also make sure that the face is perpindicular to the table surface.

Just a few thing to try. Good Luck.

[RichMagnone]

Darren - a few other things that people have not hit on yet (probably because talking about new saws is fun).

1) The concept of cutting wider than necessary and then jointing down is just flat out crazy. Accuracy is basically the linchpin of everything we do. Tools and technique add to accuracy. Things like a good saw blade (see point 2), a good tool setup (ie. proper alignment of saw) and a good fence or miter guage all assist here.

2) Saw blades matter. Many here will tell you about the benefits of a Forrest WWII or a good Freud rip blade. You mentioned a 60 tooth menards blade. That may not be the greatest blade (I don't know - what brand is it?)

That craftsman (I am assuming it is a contractor style and not a portable), armed with a good rip fence, a set of PALS, proper alingment and a good blade will likely serve you.

That's where the fun comes in. Is it worth spending $300 on a fence, $100 on a blade, $30 on a PALS system, $100 on a miter guage when you could just spend $$$ on a good contractor, hybrid or cabinet saw.

[Jerry Strojny]

My dad and I used a Sears TS with a flex blade for over 15 years before upgrading. We both upgraded to just a G0444Z. But the Sears made quite a few great projects. As a few people have said, the only drawback may be the power. On thicker wood push a little slower...easy fix. As long as you have a spinning blade that is square to the fence, who cares what name is on the saw. I think the suggestion to spend money on a good blade, fence upgrade, PALS (from Inline Industries), and eventually a miter fence, that saw should be great for years to come.

[Vaughn McMillan]

To add to the suggestions already offered, you might consider investing in a gauge for measuring the blade and fence alignment. I know in my case the gauge sees very small variations that I'd miss with a ruler, and those small variations can cause the issues you're seeing on your rip cuts. The gauge I use is the Superbar (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2355&SearchHandle=DADADJDJDADADDDGGBGDGGGEDEGGGDGGCNDAD CGDDECNDEDGDIDDCNDJGGDDDACNDBDEDIDGDFDADHGFDDDHDDD EDADADADBDADADADADFGHGBHFGHGFDADADADEDADADADADADAD ADBDFDADADADBDADADADADADADADADADADADADBDADADADADFG HGBHFGHGFDADADADBDB&filter=gauge), but there are less expensive alternatives.

- Vaughn

[Ben Roman]

To add to the suggestions already offered, you might consider investing in a gauge for measuring the blade and fence alignment. I know in my case the gauge sees very small variations that I'd miss with a ruler, and those small variations can cause the issues you're seeing on your rip cuts. The gauge I use is the Superbar (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2355&SearchHandle=DADADJDJDADADDDGGBGDGGGEDEGGGDGGCNDAD CGDDECNDEDGDIDDCNDJGGDDDACNDBDEDIDGDFDADHGFDDDHDDD EDADADADBDADADADADFGHGBHFGHGFDADADADEDADADADADADAD ADBDFDADADADBDADADADADADADADADADADADADBDADADADADFG HGBHFGHGFDADADADBDB&filter=gauge), but there are less expensive alternatives.

- Vaughn
I have the TS3650 From Ridgid It is available at the home depot. It is heavy, Powerful, Portable and with a Home depot Coupon it is below 500 bucks. The fence is nice and the motor it plenty powerful. There was a issue with the Arbor and Dado stacks but that has been resolved. Wood magazine rated it the best contractor style saw and I would have to agree

[Vaughn McMillan]

I have the TS3650 From Ridgid It is available at the home depot. It is heavy, Powerful, Portable and with a Home depot Coupon it is below 500 bucks. The fence is nice and the motor it plenty powerful. There was a issue with the Arbor and Dado stacks but that has been resolved. Wood magazine rated it the best contractor style saw and I would have to agree
Ditto here on all counts...went from a $100 Skil tabletop saw to the TS3650 and have had no regrets. If I ever get to set up my dream shop, I'll get a cabinet saw, but I'd expect to keep the Ridgid as a second table saw.

- Vaughn

[Kent Fitzgerald]

In addition to what others have said:

60 teeth is too many for ripping.

An effective splitter, like the MJ-splitter from the Grripper folks, helps a lot with rip quality.

Cutting 1/16" over and jointing is overkill. A pass or two with a hand plane will eliminate saw marks.

Have fun and work safe!

[Darren Vass]

Thanks everyone for your great pointers and suggestions. I have a lot to learn about this wonderful hobby. But isn't that half the fun? I think the process is sometimes more enjoyable to me than the end result.

Now if one of you can tell me how to quit my day job so that I could spend all day just woodworking (oh and supporting myself) that would be super!

Thanks again.

[scott spencer]

...Now if one of you can tell me how to quit my day job so that I could spend all day just woodworking (oh and supporting myself) that would be super!

Thanks again. A good start would be to change your name to "Norm"... :D ;)

[Darren Vass]

Hey great idea! Then at least "Everybody'd know my name".:D

[Larry Klaaren]

If you go with the name change you could host the New York Yankee workshop.

I have a $94.00 Delta table saw. Can't say that I can blame the tool for much though, my biggest problem is measuring mistakes. I compensate for the saw a bit by having good blades. I do trim the ends with the router, the other edges need a lot of sanding. Didn't know any better when I bought the saw . . . Also when I boought my nine inch bandsaw. My first tool, other than a hand held, was a Crafsman fifteen inch scroll saw - it gives surprisingly good service. Live and learn, don't go faster than you can figure things out. That's about all the tools I have other than a stationary belt sander and a drill press I just purchased a couple of months ago.

My next tool is going to be a better bandsaw or a jointer planer. I'd love to have a drum sander, a decent table saw, a router table (I have a good router), dust collector, shaper, it will never end. I do plan on moving to a better level of tool.

I made some decent stuff with a hand held circular saw, a hand held jig saw, one of those drills that you hold one end and twist (a corded drill was the first thing I bought - circa 1984), a regular arm powered saw, screw drivers, a hammer and hand sanding.

People do it all the time if, like me, they can't devote a lot of resources to a hobby and as I make home visits for my work I am often amazed at what people can do with very modest tools. Lots of people's equipment make mine look like a professional shop - and it's definitely not.

If I were you, and I could afford a better saw, I would get the one I want, but be sure it is the one you want.

Larry

[lou sansone]

Ditto Tods remarks about holding off for a bit. For a couple of reasons. No. 1 is you will give yourself a little time to learn about the different saws. No. 2 keep an eye on the classified sections There is always someone up gradeing to a higher quality saw and the one they are selling is not always a bad say it's just the person selling it has moved to another level and requires anothe saw to perform a different array of taskes.....same as yourself.
Keep looking round in SMC and see what ppl say about things. There is very much talent in these rooms and any one of them is willing to answer a question and happy to do so. :)
ditto the ditto

lou

[Jim Becker]

I often say, "The most expensive tools are the ones you need to replace early and often." For that reason, I also recommend you take your time with any decision, do some research, keep your eyes open and when you do make your purchase, buy the best quality you can afford, even if you have to wait an extra month or three to fund that purchase. I'm not saying you must/should buy "top of the line" as it is clear that the craftsman is more important than the tool. But investing in good quality equipment will make your work so much more enjoyable...less fighting with the tool, leaving more time for working carefully and accurately.

[Darren Vass]

Hey,
I think I got the "Norm" name thing wrong. Here I was thinking about Norm from "Cheers" not The Yankee workshop Norm with all the tools one could ever dream of having. Oh well..........:o