frustrated with pen turning

[RichMagnone]

I am quickly learning that I need to shed my desire to be a lone wolf and find a turning club, because I can't turn pens for the life of me. I work a blank down to just about the right size and then it splits out. Something in my untutored technique must be flat wrong. Oh well, it's just some brass tubes and a bit of glue. Just venting.

[David Fried]

My introduction to turning was a pen class at Woodcraft for $60. Well worth it. I was the only one in class to blow up a blank. Ooopps. It happens. We turned the entire pen using a spindle roughing gouge. I got a little too agressive I guess. What are you using? Take your time and make light passes and you can do it. Practicing on 2x4 scrap is good too.

Dave Fried

[Corey Hallagan]

Rich, I would ask the following:
What kind of wood was it? Are your tools sharp? Are they actually cracking or are they tools catching and breaking the piece?

Just trying to help yah figure it out, I am sure it is something fairly simple.

Corey

[RichMagnone]

Rich, I would ask the following:
What kind of wood was it? Are your tools sharp? Are they actually cracking or are they tools catching and breaking the piece?

Just trying to help yah figure it out, I am sure it is something fairly simple.

Corey

Thanks - I'm using a small spindle gouge in maple. I have a wolverine, so I think the gouge is sharp, although I don't work the gouge on a strop - just the fine wheel. I suppose that could be a problem.

As for the most recent pen "attempt", the blank "caught" and tore out a huge triangle chunk. If I had to guess, I would say my technique stinks!

[Corey Hallagan]

You should be able to use the small gouge and not have a problem. If that maple is real dry and real hard, maybe try some softer woods like a walnut or others to ge tthe techniquigue down. Slow down a bit maybe, take your time and when within 1/32 of the desired diameter use sand paper to get down to the bushings. I only use just a fine wheel on my small turning tools as well, that shouldn't be a problem. Maybe just some darn tough wood and to aggressive attack on it. Hope this helps. I am by far not a pro but have done a few sucessfully. Good luck Rich, don't give up!
Corey

[Andy Hoyt]

Rich - The biggest element I had trouble with early on was to fully appreciate the benefit of rubbing the bevel. I finally began to "get it" until I picked up a skew, and all hell broke loose. Ultimately though, I licked it by trying a big honking skew with a huge bevel and then working my way down a tiny 1/4" skew. I'm quite comfortable with these nasty things now.

So - if there was a lesson in there anywhere I thiink it might be to try using bigger tools with bigger bevels. I'd suggest something like a 3/4" roughing gouge. Stick with that and scrap wood for a spell and just practice rubbing the bevel. And then practice it some more. And again, And again.

There's nothing wrong with practicing on just about any green wood. As a matter of fact it maybe better since green wood offers less resistance allowing you to focus more on technique and tool control than muscling your way through some nasty old dried up hunk of whatever.

So -- go chop down your neighbors cherry tree and have at it.

Come back to pen kits and the like later on.

[Randy Meijer]

Sometimes you lose blanks because the tubes are not well glued. When you get close to bushing size, you are dealing with wood that is only a millimeter or so thick. Not a whole lot of inherent strength there if the glue job is not good. Tell us a little about your gluing technique.

[Richard Allen]

Joining a club is a terrific idea.

[RichMagnone]

Sometimes you loose blanks because the tubes are not well glued. When you get close to bushing size, you are dealing with wood that is only a millimeter or so thick. Not a whole lot of inherent strength there if the glue job is not good. Tell us a little about your gluing technique.


I use thick CA glue. I rough up the brass with 120 grit sandpaper, put the glue on the tube and put a line into the blank and then insert the brass tube into the blank while twisting until it is all the way in. I'm certainly not coating all sides as I assumed that the twisting would spread the glue around. It makes sense that this could be a problem. I'll look at it closer today.

[Rich Stewart]

I put the glue on the tube. 120 scratch it up, glue around the entire tube and insert with twisting motion. I have never had a blow out. Just lucky I guess. I had some trouble at first with stopping the blank on the lathe, but I think I was turning too slow. Now I crank the RPM's up pretty high. Light touches. I use a 3/4 inch spindle roughing gouge to get it round and then switch to a skew for the final cuts. As I think about it (and I am not a very good thinker) if the tube had no glue on one side, would it not be easier for the wood to be lifted off?

Enough babbling from me. Hope it gets better for ya.

[Chris Barton]

What Andy said is key, rubbing the bevel is one of those "ah ha" experiences. Once you understand that concept then you'er halfway there. The other half is having sharp tools.

[Bob Noles]

Rich,

What the others have said about rubbing the bevel is certainly the key and I would like to add that using the side of the tool rather than the direct point (tip) would benefit as well. Approach the wood from a slight angle and rub the bevel roating it to the cutting edge and see if that don't improve things for you. It has worked for me quite well. Also make sure your tool rest is positioned properly as well. I try to keep mine slightly above center at all times which requires adjusting it several times as the wood diameter dimishes.

And like Andy hinted to..... you ain't seen nothing yet until you take a skew chisel to it :eek: :eek: :D :D

[Rich Stewart]

Hmmmm. I keep my rest slightly BELOW center. Is this just a matter of personal choice?

[Corey Hallagan]

Rich, I keep mine so that it is right a center so that I can adjust my gouge and skew by tilting or raising the end. But I do keep adjusting it as I work the piece down. I also rotate mine and use the edge vs the front edge. The skew is a different animal that scared the H out of me at first, but it is my go to chisel once turned round.

[Andy Hoyt]

Corey - For me, the skew feels better and behaves properly when the toolrest is well above the centerline.

[Shannon Johnson]

I also keep my rest slightly below center. You have to "work" the skew above the center, but I like to keep mine below so I can work below center with the flat of the skew as a scraper... and then lower the handle to "wrok" the skew above the center for finishing cuts... (I'm basically too lazy to move the rest around a lot.) You may want to rough turn the blanks in close and then finish with the ol' 60grit scraper a time or two to get some confidence and something to write with :)

A good glue up is also real important. I also use the thick CA. I don't rough the tube though. I just run a stripe on two or three sides of it, drop a good dollop down the inside of the blank, rotate the tube in from one end to spread things around, and then rotate the tube in from the other end and bup it all the way in ... Seems to work pretty good for me, and I have turned a few blanks down to where the wood was actually so thin you could see the brass tube color through it, si I'd say you'r technique is good on the glue up..

The only other thing I can think of that might hang you up is sharpening technique... are you leaving the burr on the tool after you sharpen? If so, it may be trying to get tooooo aggressive with that fine edge and causing a dig-in which would then pull your tool just a little in to the work and blow things up....

Keep whacking at it. Pens are a great item for when you only have a half and hour or so and you want to make some dust... (for a month or so before Christmas every years I spend an evtra hour or so in the shop EVERY night, and make a couple of pens EVERY night, and the whole family and friends network end up iwht gifts they REALLY like...

I you want you can stop on in and I'll watch what you doing and see if I have any advice... :)

[George Summers]

Not really a hi-jack but some comments bring up a question that I have had for a while. Let's say that you work with the tool rest at center, why would you have to adjust the tool rest? Doesn't the center stay the same regardless of the diameter? Maybe you can tell from the quetion, I'm an admitted newbie turner and still learning.

George

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

My pen turning regime is as follows:

Rough the tube with 100 grit and mix up some 5 minute epoxy. I have some thin, square rips that is a little smaller than the hole in the blank. I get the epoxy on the "stick" and run it into the blank turning and completely coating the inside of the blank. I then take some plumber's putty and flatten it out to 1/8" or so thick and punch the tube into the putty to plug it. Insert the tube and use the stick to push out the putty before the epoxy dries. 5 minutes later I am ready to squre it up. The epoxy fill ALL the irregularities inside the blank and does an excellent job of glueing it in. You also don't have to worry about glueing your finger together! I used to use CA but I had trouble with 90 degree cross cut blank coming apart from the tube. No longer a problem with the epoxy.

I then completely turn the pen with my 3/4" Sorby oval skew. I run at 3,5000 rpm and go from round to square in just a couple of minutes. When I have it to the final shape, it is so smooth I can start sanding with 220 most of the time. I do a lot of 90 degree cross cut spalted hackberry and spalted pecan pens and you almost have to use the skew to keep it from coming apart. It works so good I started doing it on all blanks.

I put the rest above center and keep the bevel rubbing. I cut with the tip "up" and the cutting edge about 55 degrees to the axis of the blank. I get really nice, thin, curly shaving coming off. Give it a try, you will like it!

[Andy Hoyt]

George - It's a combination of multiple factors.

Yes the center stays where it is; but as the form gets rounder it also gets smaller forcing you to have more unsupported tool beyond the rest. So move the rest closer from time to time.

By positioning the rest higher (above center) I find that my ability to hold the bevel against the form and with the edge at the proper angle for a nice long shearing cut is greatly enhanced and allows for a more unencumbered body sway.

Like Mikey said. "Try it, you'll like it."

[RichMagnone]

The only other thing I can think of that might hang you up is sharpening technique... are you leaving the burr on the tool after you sharpen? If so, it may be trying to get tooooo aggressive with that fine edge and causing a dig-in which would then pull your tool just a little in to the work and blow things up....

Keep whacking at it. Pens are a great item for when you only have a half and hour or so and you want to make some dust... (for a month or so before Christmas every years I spend an evtra hour or so in the shop EVERY night, and make a couple of pens EVERY night, and the whole family and friends network end up iwht gifts they REALLY like...

I you want you can stop on in and I'll watch what you doing and see if I have any advice... :)

I am leaving the burr on - I was always led to believe that the burr was essential to the cut, no?

I whittled away at some softwoods today just to get a bit better feel. I realize that a portion of my difficulty is not getting the blank down so much as getting it smooth and straight. When the thinkness is still there, I seem to have no problem with a smooth, straight cut, but somehow, when things get thin, I double clutch and bad things happen.

[Tim Beauregard]

Rich,

I'm rather new, but have done over 20 pens. I've had a couple of blow outs, which have only happened in really soft woods...Ambrosia Maple and red cedar. For the Maple, I used thin CA glue to put the chip back on and waited overnight to finish it. When finished you can't even see where it happened. As for the cedar, didn't have the same luck, it blew out again. I have so much cedar scrap that it was easier to just make new blanks. The neat thing was that I was able to take a scraper and while the tube was turning I turned off all the wood down to the glue. Then I sanded it right on the lathe and reused the brass tube. Believe it or not I have done that TWICE with one brass tube.

Now, before doing any soft wood I run some CA glue inside the hole in the blank and let it dry. I have always used Polyurethane glue to fasten the brass tubes in place, coating the tube completely with a brush and then putting it in the blank (and twisting). I like to do about 20 blanks at a time and just throw the brush away. Any less and I feel it is a waste of a brush, in which case I spread the glue out with a popsicle stick.

Someone above said something about using a 60 grit gouge. That cracked me up, but it works. Get your piece close then finish the shaping with 60 grit sandpaper. That's exactly how I did that first blowout on the Ambrosia Maple.

Good luck, and start showing pictures of your pens.

Regards,
Tim B.

Below is the image of the Ambrosia Maple pen after Fixing and finishing it.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5832/747/1600/Pens04.jpg

[Randy Meijer]

I am leaving the burr on - I was always led to believe that the burr was essential to the cut, no?

A bur is a good hair cut and is good on scrapers. Don't think you want them on your turning tools.:D

[Ron Ainge]

there are two things that may have some impact on how your pens end up that have not been discussed here that I can think of.

1. if you tighten the live center in the tail stock down two tight you will force the mandrel to bend causing the pen to wobbel as you turn it. this could cause you to cut through one side to the wood and have a catch. (unklikely but could happen)

2. when gluing your tubes in always check the ends to see if there is any space between the blank and the brass tube. if you can see some void put a bit of thin CA in the open void and let it dry then use the tool to clean any overrun out of the tube.