More Super Dust Gorilla Questions - with NEW updated shop drawing

[Michael Gabbay]

I'm patiently waiting for the Super Dust Gorilla to arrive. Well maybe not not patiently! :D One option that I thought I would consider is the filter guage. This comes standard on the commercial units but is an option for the SDG. Is this a good thing to have or not really?


UPDATE 3/9/06:

Last night I worked on a new version of the layout and duct design. I think I like this better. It will require that I build a stand for the Gorilla due to the placement of the ceiling joists and the fact that I want to raise the Gorilla a couple of inches so I can put a little dolly under the chips bin. Based on Allan's suggestion, I am running a 6" drop to the TS. I did not include the run to the bench but that should be easy enough to place.

I'm going to see if OAS also does a static pressure calculation with the duct design and base my final decision on that plus a little more homework that I want to do.

Here are the two design:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeekaml/mikeg/

Mike

[Dan Larson]

I would suggest holding off on buying the gauge. Use the cyclone for a while and just keep an eye on the filter for dust build up. I think you'll find that the cyclone does such a good job separating out the particulate matter, you'll only rarely need to clean the filter. I don't think I've ever dumped more than a tablespoon of dust out of the filter pan after blowing the filter down with compressed air.

Dan

[Joe Chritz]

With my Super Gorilla, which is still fairly new I don't get any dust in the filter bin. It seperates the material very well.

So basically.....what Dan said!

Joe

[Michael Gabbay]

That was my initial thought as well.

OK now I'm going to drive myself crazy... I'm rethinking the 2hp decision. I'm considering the 3hp Gorilla. I don't have a large shop (13x26 in the basement) and when I use Bill Pentz's static pressure spreadsheet I only have 6.8 inches of static pressure. The 2hp is rated by AWW and OAS of having around 900 - 1000 CFM. The 3hp would be about 1100 - 1200 CFM.

My goal is to get the fine dust. All that I read on Bill Pentz's site keeps saying 5hp is about the only way to go. Which seems quite large for a hobbiest with smaller machines etc.

My thoughts on the 3hp are:
- a little louder - 80 db vs 78 db
- requires more electric 14 amps vs 11
- a few hundred more so not that big of a deal
- gives me more than I'll need

HELP!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Dan Larson]

Mike, I have the 2 hp Commercial unit and the machine tool area of my shop is ~ 20'X20'. The cyclone does a very good job collecting the waste from my relatively large tools (18" bandsaw, 12" J/P, and cabinet saw.) I can't detect any fine dust floating around the shop by eyeballing it. True, there is no way for me to know exactly what % of the micron sized dust is being collected by the cyclone without using fancy instruments, but I'd guess that it is a very high %.

But if you're worried about having buyer's remorse and the extra cost doesn't bother you and the bigger unit will fit in your shop, then go with the 3 hp. What have you got to lose?

Dan

[Chris McKimson]

Michael,

That's exactly why I bought the 3HP Gorilla rather than the 2HP.

- not a whole lot more money
- Bill Pentz's site keeps saying 5hp is about the only way to go
- gives me enough so that should I get into a bigger shop, still will work.
- never having to "drive myself crazy"

Good luck.

Chris

[Roy Wall]

Mike,

I have the 2hp super also.......very good. I hardly see any dust it the filter bin... It does an excellent job.

but--

I know what you mean about the three horse. Since it's in your mind I would get the 3hp and no remorse.... Then you really have the machine you really wanted.

It's always good to have a little extra power....

The $300 will be forgotten the first time you fire it up!!

[Bill Lewis]

Mike, I have the 2 hp commercial in my 17' x 32' basement shop. I live in Montgomery Co., so I am not that far from you. If you would like a demonstration you are more than welcome to com check out my setup. Mybe it'll help you make the final decision. Just PM me if you are interested.

[Michael Gabbay]

Bill - PM'd you....

[Michael Gabbay]

Are there any concerns with the 3hp and the type of metal duct you run? I'm using 24 gauge snaplock. My current setup is 6" to 5". I can salvage most of it and add the 7" and 8" main line based on the unit I go with.

[Joe Chritz]

The 2 HP is probably plenty. My shop area is 23x30 and I never see any floating dust. Even with heavy sanding at the downdraft table.

That said...

If 1 pound of C4 will blow it up 3 pounds will blow it up 3 times as good.

2 DB isn't really an issue so if the money isn't bigger is nearly always better.

Joe

[Chris McKimson]

I'm using 24 gauge spiral (almost done), no problems here.

Chris

[Rye Crane]

Hi Michael,

I also have the Oneida 2HP Commercial unit. My shop size is 24X24 and the collector draws everything in it's sight. I checked out the new offerings at Oneida and the 3HP is a great unit, you will be very pleased.

One thing to remember and Bill Pentz's web site will bear me out, that the HP is a consideration but it really won't make a difference unless there is a larger impeller pulling more air into the collector with a higher HP rated unit, with the same impeller size and the same rpm the higher HP won't make much difference.

Also regarding the duct sizing, in Bill's web site he makes many references to having as large a main and drop's as possible. Please try to go with the 8" main and then 7" drops. Reduce the line service at the machine with the Oneida reducers, they are longer and do not restrict airflow as much as a common reducer found at a BORG.

I got the floor sweep and it's really great, also cleans up the shoes on the way back into the house. I used a 8" main with a 7" drop then using the Oneida flex hose 6" dia. to service the tools. It works well with my 5 function combo and I just got a MM24 bandsaw. It picks up as much as it can do to the exposed blade blasting away. I am going to set up a big gulp funnel and clamp it to the table for the next resaw.

Best of luck, you won't be disapointed.

Rye Crane
N. Cal.

[Bill Lewis]

Bill - PM'd you....Pm'd you back:cool:

[CPeter James]

Well for what it is worth, I have an older Oneida 1 1/2 hp cyclone that I just changed to an external filter. The new filter looks to have at least 5 times as much surface area and the air flow is at least 50% more and maybe even more that that. I find that there is very little dust even when running my Performax 25X2 drum sander for extended periods of time and no noticeable dust in the air. It seems to get more of it into the drum and less into the filter. My "duct work" consists of 25' of 5" hose. that I drag for machine to machine. Do keep the pipe size as big as possible and I find that when I reduce it down for a 2 1/2" connection, that sometimes I have to use a "bleeder" connector. This is a connector with two 3/4" holes bored in it to leak in additional air so the flow in the big hose is not too slow.

CPeter

[Michael Gabbay]

As usual you guys are giving me a lot of great information.

For those with the 2hp, do you notice much fine dust on things in the shop?

My guess is that any sized cyclone could be a problem if the hook ups and duct work are not sized right.

[Roy Wall]

As usual you guys are giving me a lot of great information.

For those with the 2hp, do you notice much fine dust on things in the shop?

My guess is that any sized cyclone could be a problem if the hook ups and duct work are not sized right.

Michael,

With my 2hp.......no fine dust has been seen to speak of. If you get good suction right at the source point...that's the key.

Yes - keep the ducts at 6" all the way to each machine and you'll be fine.

I still think you should go with the 3hp --if and only if - it has a larger propeller (like previously mentioned).

My guess is the 2hp is 12" and hopefully the 3hp is 14" propeller...

[Jim Becker]

No fine...or coarse...dust in my shop around tools that are connected to my Onieda 2hp Commercial Cyclone...

[Steven Wilson]

I don't notice any fine dust (or other dust) in my shop when I'm using my 2HP commercial. I can even sand cork (which really irritates my nose) at the lathe without a respirator now. Square footage of the shop isn't a concern it's how long are your runs to your individual machines and how much material do they have to transport over those distances. I'm satisfied that the 2HP commercial unit was properly sized for the ductwork and machines I have. If my runs were going to much much longer then a 3hp unit would have been more appropriate. If I had gone with a very much larger jointer/planer (mine is 14") on my combo machine then I would have considered a 5hp unit (i.e. a Felder 20" j/p).

[Allan Johanson]

I'm patiently waiting for the Super Dust Gorilla to arrive. Well maybe not not patiently! :D One option that I thought I would consider is the filter guage. This comes standard on the commercial units but is an option for the SDG. Is this a good thing to have or not really?

Mike
I set up my own filter gauge using a spare 2" magnehelic gauge I had. It's working well, but the problem is not enough dust is getting to my filter for it to tell me there's a problem! :D I'm wondering how long it'll take to build up even 1" of backpressure. I might be waiting a very long time. :cool:

Allan

[Michael Gabbay]

The impeller on the 2hp is 14.25". I'm not sure the impeller size on the 3hp. I need to check with OAS.

For ducting for the 2hp, I am planning on running 7" (5 or 6 feet) to 6" (5 to 6 feet) to 5" to the tool. This will give me a static pressure of about 6.8 inches. I only will have 3 90's and about 4' of 5" flex. So based on teh 2 hp chart that puts me around 850 cfm. For the 3hp the same SP puts me around 1200 cfm.

I know the impeller on the older 2hp commercial is about 13.5" so a slightly larger impeller should provide better airflow.

I'll be driving OAS crazy!

I'm going to try to post my shop design on my sorry excuse of my web site :D to give you all a better idea of the layout etc.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeekaml/mikeg/

Thanks, Mike

[John Miliunas]

Michael, although I'm not familiar with the particular Oneida, I do know they have a quality product and, in my way of thinking, if you can swing the 3hp, that's the way I'd go. :)

Now, as for you layout, may I make a couple suggestions? First, I note that your lighting may not be optimal. You might have enough fixtures but, I have to question the positioning of them. It appears to me that, for instance, the main light at the TS is going to cast a shadow directly over your shoulder. Same thing with the one over by your main workbench and MS station. If those can be moved, it may be something you might want to consider. :) Also, I note that although you have most all of your other tools on mobile bases, they're dramatically spread out throughout the area. For instance, your planer is an extreme distance away from the jointer. Typically, I would think you'd want those two guys in pretty close proximity. :) Can we assume that you will have a main drop for the DC in order to use the above mentioned tools? Lastly, I see you're not currently making any drop(s) for your TS. I know that contractor saws are a bit of a pain for DC purposes but, you can close them up to catch the bulk. Plus, while you're plumbing now for the DC, it may be wise to look to the future when that CS will (maybe) be replaced with a cabinet saw! :D Much easier to "Y" out to it now than later. Just a few thoughts of a rambling old guy.... :D :cool:

[Bill Lewis]

Mike,
I've got a couple of suggestions for you.
1.The first one is to again offer for you to come over and see my shop. I think you'd get a better feel for the layout, and perfomance uncertainties that you may have.
2. Shove the cyclone in to the corner and make the inlet and outlet pipes so they are 90 deg to one another. this will give you a bit longer pipe run in to the cyclone which is preferred. It also uses the space more efficiently
3. Don't do the double 90's at the beginning of the run. Rather, roll a 90 from the horizontal, then use a 45 (or a 90 cut in half).
4. Us a 5" drop for the TS, I think you indicated this already in a note, but it wasn't clear. Also allow for an overarm dust pickup for the saw attached to the beam above. you might have to reposition the saw slightly to do this.
5. The 6/5/5 could possibly be moved closer to the cyclone and eliminate the 45. OTOH, If you're trying to keep the run tight to the beam, and maintain headroom, I understand.

[Allan Johanson]

If a goal is 800cfm at a specific tool then run 6" pipe to it, not 5". 5" will have extra resistance and will make the 800cfm goal harder to obtain. Also, a 6" drop can be nicely split into 5" for the cabinet and 3" or 4" to the overhead guard.

Mike: in your SP estimates, how much resistance are you allowing for the filter?

Allan

[Michael Gabbay]

John - The middle drop has a 5/5/5 on the end so I can use one dedicated to the TS and one shared for the jointer, planer, and router table. It's a bit of a pain to roll the machines up but I find it to work out fairly well since I tend to do all my jointing then all my planing.

As far as the lighting goes I also have incandesent lights spread out to suppliment the florescents. I also have a separate 2 bulb t-8 that I will hang over the bench.

Bill -

Having the cyclone in the corner might eat up too much space behind the TS. I'll play with the drawing some to see. Good idea about the double 90's. I'm going to add a Y for the overarm guard either in the end of the TS drop or on the ceiling.

Allan -

I'll rethink the 6" drop.

The specific numbers I used are: 2.5 for the cylcone, .5 for the filter, and .15 for the muffler.

I also spoke with Andy at OAS. He explained in fairly decent detail the differences between the 2 and 3hp units. The 2 has a 14.25" impeller the 3 has a 15" impeller. His overall feeling was the 2 would be sufficient and the 3 might be a little overkill. Although if I'm borderline on the SP calculations I will probably go with a 3.

Mike

[Roy Wall]

Allan -

I'll rethink the 6" drop. I don't recall the exact number I used for the filter I think it was around 2. It was from Bill P's spreadsheet.

I also spoke with Andy at OAS. He explained in fairly decent detail the differences between the 2 and 3hp units. The 2 has a 14.25" impeller the 3 has a 15" impeller. His overall feeling was the 2 would be sufficient and the 3 might be a little overkill. Although if I'm borderline on the SP calculations I will probably go with a 3.

Mike

Mike - what Allan says is accurate. I've got a 6" drop that wyes off a 5" to base of cabinet saw and the 4" runs to the overhead guard.. Good DC with this configuration.

Thanks for checking with Oneida on the propeller...so my 2hp has a 14.25"...now I know!

[Michael Gabbay]

bunmp... I added a new design to my web page.

[John Miliunas]

Fewer drastic bends=better!!! :D :cool:

[Joe Chritz]

When I did the dust piping for my shop I just ran it like OAS tech's spec'd it out.

Might be a jump but I figured they would tech it to work well at each machine. If they designed the piping wrong the system would suck and I wouldn't be happy, no matter how good the cyclone itself was.

Figuring I know zero about designing the piping and they at least know a little seemed good to me.

I suspect I will be changing it some within a year and then I will most wing it.

Joe

[JayStPeter]

I have the 2HP commercial unit. Nothing is perfect. Your tablesaw is still going to spew some dust .. nature of the beast when DC isn't well designed into the tool. But, there is little fine dust settling on everything in my shop except from my router (handheld).
I notice a few things. I agree with John about lights. I would put at least 4 fixtures on either side of the beam (I actually have a similar sized section of shop and put 6 on either side).
For the ducting, you might want to rethink the drop to your TS. I would put it along the wall on the right side of the TS, not the left as it will be in the way for a number of operations. I'm not sure if you move your BS to use it every time, but one of the great things about the 17" BS is the dual dust pickups ... I'd hook 'em up. For your middle of the room temp hookups, I'd pull from the opposite wall where the CMS hookup is and leave the middle of the room free. Anything hanging from the ceiling is going to make it a pain to move large boards through the shop and position them on tools. IMO, 13' isn't wide enough to split in half.
Oneida also talked me down from a 3HP to a 2HP unit (commercial as gorillas weren't around back then). It has met my requirements thus far. My max run is about 40' and I think that is about where the 2HP reaches its limit. If I get a bigger shop, I'll get a bigger DC. I think your shop is small enough to be handled by the 2HP. Spend the extra money plumbing your BS in :).
I use 7" for the first 4 or 5' then go to 6" PVC and flex the rest of the way to the machine. Exceptions are the BS and TS. I use a 6-4-4 on each. For the 17" BS one 4" to each port. On the TS, one 4" to the dust port and one to the overhead guard. On the TS, I have 2 4" gates, on the BS 1 6" before the split.

[Allan Johanson]

You're getting there! :D

I'd also run 6" to the CMS if you use a homemade 6" port (for my larger cyclone I'm actually running a full 7" drop to my SCMS and it works very well) and likely a 5" run to the planer since the restriction there will tend to reduce airflow. That has a 4" port on it, right?

With your SP calculations, I think you've made a mistake. Your editted original post seems to indicate you're including 2.5" SP loss for the cyclone itself. You don't need to do that. When you look at the performance chart for the Oneida cyclone, it already has the overhead of the cyclone built in. But you do need to include the losses at the hood which can be quite high depending on your duct choice. That's also why I wanted to see the 5" run to the TS go away. Too much resistance and too much hood entry loss.

For the filter, you might be better off adding 1" SP loss for it, rather than 0.5". At the start it will be low, but after some time goes by the SP loss will grow.

Over the next few days when you get some time, can you run a new SP loss estimate for the longest run and tell me exactly how many feet of __" ducting you're using, elbows, wyes, final port size, muffler loss, etc? I'd like to compare your estimate to my own with this identical duct run to see if we're on the same page. Sometimes using Bill's new spreadsheet style can get confusing.

Cheers,

Allan

[Michael Gabbay]

Allan - Thanks for the help. I might leave the CMS run the way it is for now. I'd like to focus on my most used tools first. The CMS hood is going to be redesigned to enclose more of the back and sides of the saw. Currently I have a 4" flex running from the 5" drop. I will immediately upgrade that to a 5" flex. I'll be able to get some time tonight to recalculate the numbers. I've also asked OAS to do their calcs based on the new design that I posted.

Jay - The reason why I put the drop on the left was I already have a support post there for the I-beam. That is the one thing I hate most about my shop! As fo rthe lights, I have 7 recessed lights along the perimeter of the shop. They have 65 watt floods. Overall the shop is pretty well lit. No shadows to speak of.

I was also surprised when I talked with the OAS engineer that he was not pushing the 3hp unit. He basically said that I would be fine with what I have and woul donly recommend a 3hp unit if I planned on having any friends over to work in the same at the same time.

Mike

[Steve Aiken]

I'm going to see if OAS also does a static pressure calculation with the duct design and base my final decision on that plus a little more homework that I want to do.


I purchased my Gorilla in April 2005. The rep promised me they would complete SP loss calculations on my design. I upped my purchase to take advantage of the Baldor motor, and was told the SP calculations would follow in a few weeks. I've emailed 3 or 4 times and keep getting told "in a few weeks." I'm not sure if the SP Calcs are something they normally provide and they've just gotten overly busy, or if the SP Calcs are not something they normally provide and the rep is just hoping I'll go away. Anyways, I'll call the company soon and see what gives.

steve

[John Hedges]

Just to echo John Miliunas statement about the Planer and Jointer. I would move these closer together over by where the planer currently sits and not just for the reason that they are used together. One other consideration is to have the machines producing the most debris closest to the DC. The jointer and planer definitely fall into this category.
(http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=37)

[Michael Gabbay]

Allan - Here are my calcs using Bill P's spreadsheet for the table saw run:

3 - 7" 90's (2 of these will be more like 45's to bring the main run up to the ceiling)
9' of 7" pipe
1 - 6" 90 (actually will be a 45 at the drop off the wye)
1 - 6" wye
12' 6" pipe
1 - 5" hood
1 - 5" wye (this would be a 6/5/5 wye so I used a 5" wye for the calc)
4' 5" flex to the table saw

S.P. for filters = 1
S.P. for muffler = .15
Total S.P. Loss = 4.94

So looking at the Super Gorilla fan curve that puts the CFM at around 1100. Much better! :)

For fun I also tried using a 5" drop to the TS. The SP loss is only 5.01.


John / John - I'll probably move the router table over by the door and put the planer next to the jointer. I also want to build a better table for the CMS so I would make it the same height as the router table. Since they are all on wheels they will share a 5" hook up near the TS.

Mike

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Mike,

Sorry, but there's a small problem. I plugged in those numbers into Bill's spreadsheet and came up with the identical 4.94" SP loss you did....but that value is wrong.

The Target Air Velocity (4000) value needs to be adjusted to match your hood size. If you look again at the spreadsheet, you'll see two velocity values in the 5" column.

Calculated velocity....5867 fpm
Delivered velocity.....4000 fpm

The SP calcs are using the "Target Air Velocity" and optimum duct size at the top of the tables, and you need to make the target air velocity value match the calculated velocity for your hood. When you stuff the 5867 value into the Target Air Velocity box then the SP loss estimate will jump from 4.94" to 7.63".

Now the fun really begins....

Look at the Oneida 2HP performance chart and look up 7.63" SP and find out how much air it can move. Hey! It looks to be about 800cfm! Cool.

....but....

On the 2HP info page, follow the link to the Wood Magazine test. Look up 7.63" SP and see how much air the WOOD mag test showed it can flow. Maybe 575 cfm?

So, which values are you going to go by?

Be conservative and pretend it's Wood's test numbers. What you have to do now is to play with the airflow/velocity values in Bill's spreadsheet and move them up and down until you can get close to finding a point that matches on the Wood Mag test chart (for the 2HP Commercial cyclone).

Since 7.63" resulted in about 575 cfm, plug 575 cfm in Bill's spreadsheet and then dump in the 4217 fpm for the Target Air velocity. This lower airflow will reduce the resistance and the 7.63" value will drop to 4.50". If you look up 4.5" on the Wood Mag test, is says the airflow is about 1000 cfm. If you plug 1000cfm into Bill's spreadsheet the SP value will be way too high. Ugh.

So you get to play with it for a while, slowly narrowing in onto the right cfm value that has an estimated SP value that also matches up with the Wood mag test.

I did this and it's approx 740cfm @ 6.70" SP.

This is all just an estimate, but it shouldn't be too far off reality for that particular duct run. 50cfm either way doesn't really matter a whole lot.

I've probably opened up a can of worms with this whole thing, but I hope it helps to show you a bit of what you have to do for more accurate estimates.

Cheers,

Allan

[Michael Gabbay]

Allan -

I must have an older version of the spreadsheet. I only see one FPM value in the 5" column and it is set to 4000 FPM. Also, make sure you are using the correct fan curve. The 2hp commercial is not the same as the 2hp Gorilla. The Gorilla has a redesigned blower unit and a larger impeller. AWW just did a test which shows the curve to be better than what OAS has. http://www.oneida-air.com/gallery.html. If I look at this correctly, 7.5 SP comes in around 800 - 900 cfm.

I was also reading the Air Handling site today. They use 4000 FPM as the standard velocity setting for wood dust collection.

Let me download the latest version of Bill's spreadsheet and rerun the numbers.

Thanks again for your help with this.

Mike

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Mike,

Re: 2HP Gorilla performance.
I forgot about the recent change. I was going by this blurb on the 2HP Gorilla home page:
"* The Dust Gorilla has the same airflow and noise specifications as Oneida's 2Hp commercial system which was tested by WOOD magazine in December 2003."

Maybe one day they will update the web page?

AWW's graphs are a little hard to read too. Hard to get good info these days. :rolleyes:

Anyhow.....whatever graph you think best represents the machine you will have in your shop is the one to use. ;)

Re: target of 4000fpm in ductwork: Very true. That's your target for vertical drops. But you need to make sure that you're not running too high of a velocity because that just increases the resistance (SP) and lowers the airflow.

Cheers,

Allan

[Michael Gabbay]

Allan - pm'd you...:)