Am I Crazy....Monster bandsaw

[Gary Jacuk]

I'm looking to upgrade my current bandsaw and there's a 36":eek: Oliver available near me. Huge machine and 3 phase power, which I don't have.
Are my "eyes to big for my stomach" as my Mom used to say:confused: , or is this a once in a lifetime opportunity?:D The saw is $2500 and looks very clean.
Whatcha think?

[Alan Turner]

A big bandsaw is a wonderful thing.

[Jamie Buxton]

umm.. how much is it going to cost to truck that monster from Oakland to the foothills -- along with the forklift to get it off the truck?

.. and while I'm asking questions, is your shop door tall enough for the saw to go through? I bet it won't go through the usual garage door.

[Gary Jacuk]

Jamie,

Being where I am, there are probably enough crazy people around here to help out. This being an old sawmill town I'm sure I could find some help, although I know what you're saying. We moved some old heavy tools last year and it was quite the adventure. Sounds like you know the saw that I'm looking at, what do you think? Looks pretty clean.

Gary

[Steven Wilson]

How tall is it? Will you be able to fit it into your space? Have you priced out a rotary phase converter for providing the 3phase power? Do you have an extra 50-75A amp circuit to drive the rotary phase converter? Do you comprehend how heavy something like that is and how much fun you're going to have resting in on it's side in order to get it under your garage door? Do you really want to reframe part of your garage so the bandsaw can stand upright? Have fun

[John Bailey]

Yup!! You're Crazy.:D Hope you get it and we get a review and pictures.

John

[Brian Jarnell]

Sort of thing once in, you never regret.

[lou sansone]

I have a 36" cast iron band saw and I love it, but it took me a couple of years of constant searching to find the right one. There are a few things you should consider ( btw what is the serial #... that tells the age of the machine and is pretty important )

1. condition of the wheels - many Olivers had aluminum wheels with vulcanized rubbers on them. If they are damaged you could be in for some problems. I have been told that some came through with carter wheels, although I can't personally confirm this. those wheels can be re-tired, but you will spend about 600 just for the 2 tires.

2. You need to check the motor speed - oliver made a number of different speed band saws and some if not most will be unsuitable for hand resawing. I believe they made a 720 rpm motor as their slowest direct drive motor. That is still pretty fast for hand resawing, but you will probably be ok with it. I would personally stay away from 900 and 1200 rpm motors, those were really made for rough ripping and with possible power feed assist

3. the overall condition of the machine - if this is coming from a furniture factory it will most likely be whooped. maybe you don't care and love to rebuild stuff. hey have at it

4. Oliver used special pancake type motors and I have not heard of them ever burning out, but keep in mind that you will have a real issue if it needs rebuilding

best wishes

Lou

[Gary Jacuk]

Steven,
You pose a good question as far as the electrical is concerned. I know a phase converter for a 5hp is around $500, but does it really need a 50 to 75 amp circuit to drive it? Is there an answer out there?
Space wise, I'm fortunate in that my lovely and talented wife convinced me a couple of years ago that I shouldn't wait for retirement to build the "dream shop". 1200 square feet with a 9' sliding door and 10' ceilings. And she gets to keep her car in the garage again. Life is good!

Gary

[Gary Jacuk]

Lou,
Can you help me out? Where is a good place to find out information on these saws besides bugging you. The saw is a 416DL and the serial number is 200715.
It seems to be getting a bit less feasible the more I learn. The table is not the original, and the tires and guides are in "fair shape". Sounds like a couple of thousand more to me!


Thanks,
Gary

[Dev Emch]

Lou,
Can you help me out? Where is a good place to find out information on these saws besides bugging you. The saw is a 416DL and the serial number is 200715.
It seems to be getting a bit less feasible the more I learn. The table is not the original, and the tires and guides are in "fair shape". Sounds like a couple of thousand more to me!


Thanks,
Gary

The oliver 416 is one of the best bandsaws ever made. Its beefier than the older 116 and way better made than the cost engineered four digit model with the square guard and silver tag. Some 416s were belt drivers but most had direct drive using the pancake motor. The 217 is a 30 inch version of the 416 which is a 36 inch saw. My top four list of bandsaws is the yates snowflakes (Y-16, Y-20, Y-30, Y-36, Y-42) and the oliver 217 and oliver 416. The tannewitz is also an excellent saw and is some ways nicer and someways not so nice. Often, tannewitz was the choice in furniture factories so they are beat when you get them. Olivers were more used in pattern shops, military shops and votech shops so they tend to be a cut above in condition.

In oliver circles, the value of a machine shoots up if its SSN is 200xxx or greater. That does not mean that sub 200 machines are bad. Not at all, some of the best olivers were brass chickens! Your just going to pay much more for the same machine if its got the red tag and a 200xxx SSN.

The fact that its missing its table suggests that this machine may have been tipped. When this large a machine falls over on its table, the table often breaks and is then replaced by a slab of 3/4 in or 1 in plate steel. It saddens me to see this as a 200xxx 416 is quite an in-demand bandsaw. But to replace that table is no easy task. This is a major project or an outlandisly expensive excercise in futility. And if this saw is being sold from a dealer, I would reconsider the whole thing. I personally have the ability to replace that table but I am so booked up right now that I dont know where my next four hours of sleep are comming from. I actually own a 200 series oliver 416 which I currently have in storage so I know what the table looks like. So its your call. You may be able to live with that table until you can find an orig. to replace it with.

[Gary Jacuk]

Dev,
I knew I could count on you chiming in with some useful information. Thanks. It's tempting, but I'm afraid the bandsaw would end up sitting off to the side like my 1914 jointer, waiting for the free time and inspiration. Just out of curiosity is $2500 a decent price, assuming there's another 2 or 3 thousand needed to get it back in shape?

Thanks
Gary

[Dev Emch]

Dev,
I knew I could count on you chiming in with some useful information. Thanks. It's tempting, but I'm afraid the bandsaw would end up sitting off to the side like my 1914 jointer, waiting for the free time and inspiration. Just out of curiosity is $2500 a decent price, assuming there's another 2 or 3 thousand needed to get it back in shape?

Thanks
Gary

The table issue bothers me. Your going to find it very hard to sell this to a person in the know for that amount. If the orig. table were there, you would have a number of folks tripping over each other to get it. But that missing table certainly changes the picture. It would be interesting to know what eagle machinery wants for a table but I can imagine it would be significantly more than 3 or 4 thousand.

[Gary Jacuk]

Dev,
Thanks, I was going to give Eagle a call tomorrow just to satisfy my curiosity.

Gary

[Bill Simmeth]

I was going to give Eagle a call tomorrow just to satisfy my curiosity.That should be interesting. Please let us know how much Rich quotes you for this part.

[lou sansone]

i agree with dev.. without the table it is not worth all that much.... wait for another one
lou

[Steven Wilson]

Steven,
You pose a good question as far as the electrical is concerned. I know a phase converter for a 5hp is around $500, but does it really need a 50 to 75 amp circuit to drive it? Is there an answer out there?

5hp phase converter for $500, are you pricing a static phase converter? A few years back I was looking at purchasing some Felder equipment and so I would be running one and probably more than one 3 phase motor at the same time (i.e. DC and saw). The rotary phase converter to consider is from Kay Industries, I was looking at the MA-R from them. The Kay Industry converters are robust enough that you can size them to match you largest starting load (so a 7.5hp converter for a 7.5hp max starting motor), most others you need to derate 50%. I suggest you look at the technical documents on Kay's site for electrical load sizing requirements. They do state that "National Electric Code (NEC) requires single-phase cable and branch circuit to be rated for 250% of three-phase load current", so you can see where you could can get into the 50A and above circuits. Rule of thumb is 100 amps of single-phase service for every 20HP of connected 3-phase load at 230v. Running a modest Felder setup can get you there fairly quick, as can a modest DC (3-5hp) and a small wide belt sander.

[Gary Jacuk]

Steven,
I know little or nothing, let's just say nothing about three phase. So what is the advantage to three phase power ? Obviously most industrial machines seem to use it, and based upon the requirements you stated, it wouldn't seem feasible for most of us unless the power company can bring it (I guess that's what they'd do) directly to the shop.
Give me some education.

Thanks
Gary

[Reg Mitchell]

Dev,
I knew I could count on you chiming in with some useful information. Thanks. It's tempting, but I'm afraid the bandsaw would end up sitting off to the side like my 1914 jointer, waiting for the free time and inspiration. Just out of curiosity is $2500 a decent price, assuming there's another 2 or 3 thousand needed to get it back in shape?

Thanks
Gary
Gary I just gave $900 for a very sought for 36" bandsaw.......just for your info.
Reg

[Gary Jacuk]

Reg,

I saw the pictures of that beauty of yours. Must admit that I drooled more than a little bit. It's interesting in looking over the auction sites that the majority of the machines seem to be back on the east coast, which makes sense since I think a majority of the furniture factories and the hardwood lumber for that matter were (are) back there. Out here on the "left coast" they're quite a bit more scarce. Ah, but we have Hollywood!!!!:cool:
Reg, is your saw single phase or three phase? How decent a condition? On the web site it looked pretty darn good. Did say something about needing new tires, if I remember.
Hope you ger 'er home safely and the you have nothing but fun with that new baby.

Gary

[Charlie Plesums]

Steven,
I know little or nothing, let's just say nothing about three phase. So what is the advantage to three phase power ? Obviously most industrial machines seem to use it, and based upon the requirements you stated, it wouldn't seem feasible for most of us unless the power company can bring it (I guess that's what they'd do) directly to the shop.
Give me some education.

Thanks
Gary

The 2 cent course:

Three phase power has starting torque. Single phase power theoretically does not - so just uses trickery to get started. So all larger motors - over about 5 hp - are three phase.

Static converters use trickery to run a 3 phase machine at about 70% power. (Yes, there are fancy static converters that create real 3 phase power and give 100% performance, but that isn't what most people get).

Rotary converters have a single phase motor that powers a 3 phase generator, and run very efficiently, but you need to get them started before any of the 3 phase machines, so in practice, they run continuously. Still they are cheaper than having the power company bring 3 phase more that about 6 inches farther than they already want to bring it.

[Reg Mitchell]

Hi Gary
There are a lot of things on the west end of town.....I got my tablesaw from seattle....I was going to get a shaper until I found out the shipping cost for 2500 lbs....OUCH...lots of big iron if your looking in the right places try davis and wells....ebay has lots on the west end...I found a place to redo the tires today and will be sending them out as soon as i get home.
And if your want some east town things.....grab a tralior....load up that shaper I want come this way and we'll find you what you need :D

[Steven Wilson]

Steven,
I know little or nothing, let's just say nothing about three phase. So what is the advantage to three phase power ? Obviously most industrial machines seem to use it, and based upon the requirements you stated, it wouldn't seem feasible for most of us unless the power company can bring it (I guess that's what they'd do) directly to the shop.

3 phase is unlikely to be available to your residence at any cost. If it is available you'll probably end up paying industrial rates so the only real alternative is to make 3 phase with a phase converter. The attraction of 3 phase is the equipment available that you often can't find a good alternative for in single phase; spray booths, old industrial woodworking machines, metal working machines, larger new woodworking machines, you know, the cool stuff. If you only have or want to power a single 3 phase machine and the machine is 3hp or less then you might consider using a VFD to convert the single phase to 3 phase and give you some interesting control possibilities - very cool for lathes and drill presses. Could also be cool on a bandsaw, like trying to make the odd cut in metal on a wood cutting bandsaw, but YMMV.

As for power, you can generally upgrade your service and in many cases it can be fairly inexpensive or you can have a second service installed. A fair number of hobbiests (woodworkers and metalworkers) have upgraded or secondary electrical services brought into their home. In my area I can upgrade my service to 400A. So I could actually have two 400A services run to my house - not that I would do that, but I could :) As usual all of this stuff depends on your location, you might want to ask your power company.

[Reg Mitchell]

Not always true Steven....
I live in a residental area and there is 3 PH power comming by my home. I pay $8 a month for the meter rent and the bill will be what ever I use in power. I had no Idea it was there and just happen to run into a olh H.S friend that happen to be an electricion and he told me about it after I ask if he could build me a converter. I called the power company and they said yes and wala....3 PH poweer for my shop...It doesn't hurt to as....all they can say is no :)

[Basil Rathbone]

Go to OWWM.Com. I am sure you will find info there, or people willing to help.

Basil