How do YOU Rub Out a Lacquer Finish? - DONE!

[Vaughn McMillan]

My pool cue case is coming along nicely. I've still got to deal with the interior upholstery, but I've got the lacquer built up nicely on the outside of the case, and am ready to rub it out into a glass-like finish.

I did some experimenting last night, and used this sequence:

1. very lightly sand with 220 grit
2. work through 320, 400 and 600 grits
3. automotive rubbing compound (burnt orange)
4. automotive polishing compound (white)

This resulted in a nice finish, but under close scrutiny I can see very fine scratches in the finish. I'm guessing that I didn't spend enough time in the 400 to 600 grit range before going to the rubbing and polishing compounds. Also, I decided to skip the 800 through 1500 grit paper, and am now wondering if that might have been a contributing factor.

I also noticed quite a bit of what I'd call "pilling" in the 320 through 600 grits. After only a few swipes with the sandpaper, I was getting little "balls" of lacquer (kind of a gritty feel) under the sandpaper. I made it a point to vaccuum these bits up as they were produced. Could these be the result of the lacquer not being fully cured? (It had been about 8 hours since the last coat of lacquer.)

I've now given the case another couple shots of lacquer, and am ready to try rubbing it out again. Before plunging headlong into this again, I figured I'd see what sequence you folks would use to turn a relatively thick build of lacquer into a smooth-as-glass finish.

Any takers?

- Vaughn

[Bob Johnson2]

You don't mention if your wet sanding, from what I've encountered it prevents most of the piling. I've used only 400 and up, never tried anything heavier then that. If it was on the finished coat I'd try 600 followed by buffing with the compounds. I'm definitly no pro but you could try water, soapy water, and I've read you can use oil.

[Vaughn McMillan]

Good point, Bob. I was using the sandpaper dry.

- Vaughn

[Dennis Peacock]

Vaughn,

Unless your initial coats of lacquer are pretty "rough"? I wouldn't start with sanding at 220. I'd start at like 400 grit. If you're getting a lot of "balling" during the initial sanding process, then it needs to cure longer. I usually allow 24 hours before I start sanding to help me prevent the balling which can also allow further scratching that will "mar" the finish. Try and use a lube while sanding, this will ease the process and make it less likely to ball on you and provide a more even scratch pattern.

Just my experiences with it.

[John Miliunas]

Vaughn, it's pretty much like Dennis said. For my final buff, I use "Behlen's Buffer's Polish". Works fine by hand or machine. By hand, I went and picked me up a couple of those felt erasers used on white boards. Works fantastic! You can get decent pressure on the wood, while maintaining great control. :) :cool:

[Steve Schoene]

I'll second the idea not to start with too coarse a paper. The finest grit that will remove the defects is a good idea. If there are few defects I have even begun sand paper with 1200 grit. May take a small amount longer, but doesn't create other problems.

[Vaughn McMillan]

Thanks guys. You're definitely my go-to guys for this type of question. I'll give it a whirl tomorrow (Friday) night.

I started with the 220 the other night to level out the surface...I'd been trying to build up enough lacquer to fill the pores of the jatoba. After the last go-round, I think I have the pores pretty full, and now that I have a couple new coats of lacquer on there, I'll start with a finer grade of paper. And a bit of water. ;) I like the eraser idea too, John. I've got one laying around...just gotta see if I can find it. No small task in my house sometimes. ;)

- Vaughn

[Bryan Cowing]

A fellow I work with wet sands and rubs out guitars he makes. I think he said he waits a week for the lacquer to fully harden.

[Brian Hale]

For a lacquer finish i've had good luck as follows....

Let cure for a week

Lightly scrape the finish with a freshly sharpened scraper (no hook) just to remove dust nibs. Only very light pressure and only enough to get it flat.

GENTLY dull surface with grey ScotchBrite pad in the grain direction creating a uniform scratch pattern. This is perhaps the most important step. You don't have to get the finish completly dull(flat) just evenly scratched.

Meguiars Fine-Cut cleaner by hand or machine. If by hand, follow the grain.

For a higher gloss follow with Meguairs Swirl Remover. The Show Car Glaze adds a bit more shine for a high gloss finish.

>>>>> A word of caution here! The Meguairs products contain silicone which is no problem for a finished product but can cause finishing trouble on any nearby unfinished wood if you sling some onto it.


I know most folks say to wet sand and that works for them but i avoid it. The advantage of scraping is you can see the shiney part of the finish fade away as you work, reducing the chance of sanding through your top coat. If you don't have a nice scraper, the ones from Lee Valley are perfect right out of the box.

Good luck and show us the finished product!

Brian :)

[Phil Phelps]

..between drying and curing. Temperature makes a huge difference, too. It depends on what I'm finishing, but I use sanding sealer quite often. You need to build before you start sanding. Be careful, you can burn thruoug to bare wood quickly.

[John Hebert]

is sanding between coats of sanding sealer with 320 wet and dry, and shouldn't really need to buff anything out after the final coat is on. If you still want to fuff, there are a wide assortment of abralon abrasive pads from woodworkers supply, for an orbital from 250 grit up to 5000 grit that sure takes the pain out of rubbing. I also use finishing wax with a felt pad for an orbital for a good luster

[tod evans]

vaughn, if at all possible let the lacquer cure at room temp for a couple weeks, depending on film thickness. "balling-up" is from one of two reasons i`ve found 1) not fully cured or 2) power sanding melting the finish due to friction...the rubbing compound should give you a mirrior finish....02 tod

[Vaughn McMillan]

Thanks again guys for the raft of suggestions. Seeing this thread pop up again, I figure I should post an update.

After I got what I considered enough lacquer built up (brushed a few coats on, then spray bombed a bunch more), I let things sit at room temp for about 2 weeks. Yesterday I rubbed out the finish with 400 grit wet, 600 grit wet, rubbing compound, polishing compound, then paste wax. Came out looking like glass, although I can still see some of the pores in the jatoba. (I was hoping to fill the pores completely. Gotta try Seal Coat for the next project.)

After rubbing out the finish, I needed to install the piano hinge and latches, so I clamped the top and bottom together with plastic-jawed Quick Clamps. Got the hardware and interior upholstery installed, then noticed hazy spots at each of the four corners where the clamps had been. (Note to self: Use better pads...Doh!) I tried a couple go-rounds of the 400/600/rubbing/polishing on the spots, and although the spots have been diminished, they're still there. What's strange is that the spots seem to be gone while I'm going through the polishing sequence, but they reappear when I put on the final paste wax.

I think tonight I'll try again tonight...I'm guessing I need to spend a bit more time on the 400 grit (or maybe even go down to 320 grit for a bit) to get the spots out. I've also got a couple of the extra thin Lee Valley cabinet scrapers, so I'm debating trying to use one of them to work out the spots (then following with the polishing sequence). If worse comes to worse, I'll add a bit more lacquer, then start the waiting to cure game again.

Any suggestions?

- Vaughn

[Brian Hale]

It sounds like you may have smashed the lacquer a bit which can happen with a thick coat. What will happen is the lacquer will get tiny cracks in it and they will fill up with whatever lubricant you're using during the wet sand process and appear to go away. Then the wax will get into them and haze over as it dries, making them visible again.

I'd go after them with the scraper till they're gone as wet sanding will make it difficult to tell when to stop. It'll also go a lot faster with the scraper.

Another thing to consider.... Each new coat of solvent based lacquer (not water based) will dissolve the previous finish so perhaps a new coat of moderate thickness will dissolve far enough down to get rid of the problem, might be worth a try. Just make sure the wax is removed first.

Good Luck!

Remember, experience is the best teacher! :rolleyes:

Brian :)

[Vaughn McMillan]

Thanks Brian. I was suspecting that I might have crushed the lacquer. And your explanation about why they only reappeared when waxed makes perfect sense.

...Remember, experience is the best teacher! :rolleyes: ...
And my buddies on SMC are a very close second. Thanks again.

Edited later to add...

Got 'er done. :)

Brian, I used the super-thin Lee Valley scraper, and it worked like a champ. I also handled the "open pore" issue for the most part, also with the scraper. (If you guys haven't tried their thin scrapers (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49548&cat=1,310,41069), I highly recommend them.)

Since this is the Finishing Forum, here's a look at the finish:

33934

For more pics, go to this thread in the General forum:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32955

Thanks again to all of you for the help and suggestions. I learned a lot. Coincidentally, my copy of Understanding Wood Finishing by Bob Flexner just arrived from Amazon today. Perfect timing, huh?

- Vaughn

[Brian Hale]

I'm glad the scraper worked out for you Vaughn. I'm using them more and more in my shop and they're real handy.

Great looking finish!!!!

Brian :)