please educate an uninformed hillbilly

[tod evans]

this thread is a spin-off of another that seemed to me to be heading in the wrong direction. i don`t own and have never used the guided circular saw systems that are available. i`m pretty much in the dark, other than what i read on this forum. and unfortunately every time a thread about these systems starts it seems to get into a brand-x vs brand-y discussion. so if you kind folks could take the time to discuss the merits and potential merits of these systems in a commercial/construction enviornment i would really appreiciate the insite. please leave the manufacturers product names at the door so maybe this thread will be informative. dino and bob your input is more than welcome! i`m just trying to avoid the brand-bashing/pluging that goes on all too frequently..
thanks, tod

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Tod...........Good luck! You just opened the door for rekindling a common fire here! I hope you don't try to rekindle a little war we had 140 years ago or so!:eek: :D
I don't have either brand you eluded to but in finishing the walls of my shop, I did use a clampable straight edge with my PC CS. Working by myself ripping 8' sheets of 1/2" plywood to cover the interior walls of my 30'x24' shop, it was certainly easier cutting them on a pair of wooden sawhorses than trying to muscle them through my contractor t/s!

[Paul B. Cresti]

Tod,
In my use of a guided tool system I found it very useful for job site conditions. When I was installing a coffered ceiling almost two years ago I first cut the bulk of the long panels in the shop. I then brought it to the site where they needed to be cut to fit. I placed a door on the clients floor and with my guide & saw I was able to quickly cut these pieces to fit and with the DC hookup I had barely any mess. At that same job I had to install a two tiered mantle, 14'-0" tall. When I started to install the bottom columns I forgot to allow for the lip/projection created by the stone surround. I was able to use a router & a guide to trim the inside of square column to fit. Since ti was at an angle and the cut needed to be seen I was sweating cows & donkeys (never mind bullets) .... all went well. IMHO for job site use these tools really work well.

In the shop I find it easier to use other tools which are more specialized to the task at hand while also allowing me to handle many other task just as well. IMHO they can add to your abilities/choices to accomplish something not replace tools.

Bob Marino once told me that these tools "Offer solutions to problems" and I think that fits the description to a "T".

[Ed Lang]

Tod,

I have one of the systems and just love it. I find it worth the expense to not have to measure an offset as I did in the past. I also find it makes better cuts then the homemade system I had in the past. It is quite easy to put sheet goods on a table and cut away while not having any "drops" move or have to be held while cutting. Having experienced one of the systems now, if I had to make the decision again, I would look at it like this. Is dust collection a priority? Is having a "set" of tools a priority? Is having matching boxes for my tool "set" a priority? Is buying a blade from the hardware store or Big Box important vs a special blade? And of course, the cost of the system is a factor for some... like me.

I hope you can find someone close to you with one of the systems or maybe both systems so you can see first hand how and what is going on with them.

If you are going to use either in a construction enviroment, I would just snap a chalk line and cut freehanded. Doing cabinet work onsite, get one or the other system.

[tod evans]

ed, you`ve seen some of my work, so by using the phrase "construction environment" i`m alluding to install work at a jobsite. thank you, tod

[Steve Clardy]

I have Dinos system. It excels at end cutting plywood in the shop. My cut capacity on the table saw is 36 1/2 r, 24 1/2 L, and sometimes I need a longer end cut off a 4x8 sheet.
I also use it on job sites with veener plywood, counter tops. Much easier than dragging a table saw to the job.

[Dave Falkenstein]

I use my GCSS in my shop to reduce sheet goods to finished size pieces in one pass. I am 67 and have a weak back. I can slide sheet goods from my pickup to a cutting platform by myself and cut them to size accurately with no help. I also use it in the shop for guided router cuts, like dados for bookcases or cabinets.

On a client job site, I have found numerous uses during installations. Any non-square cut on sheet goods can be easily made from two marks on the material. For example, I recently had to make 5 melamine shelves to fit in an angled corner of a closet. The angles were slightly different on each shelf due to the drywall. I cut those shelves using a cardboard template and my GCSS without a single miscut, and with no chipping on the melamine.

On another install, I had to cut outside stair railing posts to an angle on top that was hard to determine until after the posts had been set. I set the posts and then used my GCSS clamped to the post to make this difficult cut accurately.

Portability and accuracy are a hard combination to beat. Cutting and dadoing sheet goods by myself is a huge benefit.

[Tyler Howell]

I have sytem X and am very happy. I recently hung some doors in an old house with speed, accuracy and very little mess. I hate doing job site work now just because I have to drag tools, but this speeds up the process with everything self contained.

[Ed Labadie]

I think people often overlook the advantages of a guide rail system on short cuts that have to be done with a circular saw. It's nice to be able to add extra precision to framing work while making the job easier.
I recently cut a pair of stairway stringers for a friend. Turned out perfect!! Used my shortest guide rail to guide the saw & then cleand up the corners with the jigsaw.
All the steps laid right in, nice & flat no gaps. These were for a loft in my friends pole barn so there was no trim added.

Ed

[Frank Pellow]

Tod, you have seem in some of these other threads that you reference how I use one of the Guided Tools Systems. For me, the system makes cutting sheet goods both in my shop and on the site a very easy and accurate thing to do whereas, in the past, the task was difficult and error prone.

Also, I never liked using dado blades on table saws. For me, routing dados and rabbets is faster, safer, and gives better results with my GTS than I ever obtained on a table saw.

I happen to have the F system, but I am quite sure that I would also be happy with the E system. And if similar X, Y, and Z systems show up in the future, then that would be good too.

[Hank Knight]

I work alone in a small shop. I have a Unisaw with a 52" fence - plenty big enough for sheet goods. But manhandling a heavy piece of 3/4" ply onto the saw table, adjusting up all the offcut supports and guiding it through the saw by myself was a pain and, more often than not, downright scary. 3/4" MDF was worse. I recently bought a guided plunge cut circular saw for the specifice purpose of cutting down sheet goods in my yard on saw horses. It makes the job SO much easier and the cuts are as accurate and as clean as I get on my Unisaw. My only regret is that I didn't get one of these saws when they first hit the market. They are expensive compared to a garden variety circular saw, but well worth it IMHO.

[Cecil Arnold]

Tod, I think most of the posts have already covered it. I have a system (saw, vac and router) and find that field construction with it is much easier than moving a large contractor saw but IMHO is a little slower. For cutting full sheets of ply it is nice, and for dust control during installations it excels. Would I give up my CS, router table, BS, or miter saw--no way.

[Mark Singer]

Tod,
I just glued uo 5 white oak planks for a dining table for my daughter. The width was 37"...after glue up the ends needed to be trimmed...I used my plunge saw and rail to trim both ends square and parallel. I also did the same for the large doors I made. I don't use it for making carcass components as others do. I perfer the cabinet saw. I do use it for breaking down sheet goods and occasional straight line stuff. My Festool won't make it through a rough saw 8/4 so I am back at the tablesaw using an aluminum extrusion to straight line.....Yes you can use a skill saw and a Tru Grip or straight board...the guided saw works better ...variable speed and a nice cut.

[Jim Becker]

"Precision While Portable" is my answer, Tod. The guided systems allow the craftspersons to work on-site with a lot of capability closer to the shop. Easier, safer, with more accuracy and with less time. (And without schlepping a lot of heavy stuff like the old days) I think this is why you see more and more folks using the systems on job sites. Obviously, I'm not talking about rough framing here, but finish work and cabinetry installations where accuracy is important.

[Dennis Peacock]

Tod,

I'll bring up a couple of GR setups for you to see and test drive when I come up next. Sound ok?

[tod evans]

Tod,

I'll bring up a couple of GR setups for you to see and test drive when I come up next. Sound ok?

cool! thanks dennis, i`m really curious what these guys have on my old 10" milwaukee and a plywood guide.....02 tod

[Dennis Peacock]

cool! thanks dennis, i`m really curious what these guys have on my old 10" milwaukee and a plywood guide.....02 tod

No problem buddy. Glad to demo both setups for ya. Mark will have to lend me some of "his" tools so I can perform a proper demo, but hey, most of what I have is Mark's stuff and most of his stuff is mine as well.:p :D

[Dennis Peacock]

Oh, BTW Tod.......

I belive that once you see both of these setups? You'll toss your old setup and start using either setup. Just my experience with both setups. :rolleyes: ;)

[Frank Pellow]

Tod,

I'll bring up a couple of GR setups for you to see and test drive when I come up next. Sound ok?
Dennis, what does the acronym GR stand for?

[Michael Ballent]

I think its Guided Rail. Dennis correct me if I am wrong. :D


Dennis, what does the acronym GR stand for?

[Michael Ballent]

Take a look at this site...

http://www.cjohnhebert.com/Festool.htm

Shows him taking a piece straight from the back of the truck and making his cuts. It's a pretty slick setup.

Also take a look at this one as well:

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fest-6.htm


ed, you`ve seen some of my work, so by using the phrase "construction environment" i`m alluding to install work at a jobsite. thank you, tod

[Frank Pellow]

I think its Guided Rail. Dennis correct me if I am wrong. :D
That sounds right. Thanks Michael.

[Joe Unni]

I too have a guided system. In the shop - for sheet break down.

And it's invaluable for the jobsite. I can't tell you the last time I brought my Bosch portable table saw to the jobsite. Tapers, fillers, trimming shelves, etc.

If you do ANY jobsite work a guided system will be a fantastic investment.

-joe

[Dino Makropoulos]

this thread is a spin-off of another that seemed to me to be heading in the wrong direction. i don`t own and have never used the guided circular saw systems that are available. i`m pretty much in the dark, other than what i read on this forum. and unfortunately every time a thread about these systems starts it seems to get into a brand-x vs brand-y discussion. so if you kind folks could take the time to discuss the merits and potential merits of these systems in a commercial/construction enviornment i would really appreiciate the insite. please leave the manufacturers product names at the door so maybe this thread will be informative. dino and bob your input is more than welcome! i`m just trying to avoid the brand-bashing/pluging that goes on all too frequently..
thanks, tod

How do you make MICRO-PLANED lumber? - Sawmill Creek
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32157

How do you make tapered cuts?
How do you rip and cross cut panels on limited space?
How do you rip solid lumber on limited space?
How do you make your own edges?
Mortice and tenons. Line drilling, Duplicating shapes,make your own moldings.
Make your own T&G flooring. etc.etc.

Tod. Just about anything can be done with this guided tool systems.
Take a look at this link.

In this link we can see the GTS in action.
Exact dados-line drilling and cut to size without moving the part or the guide rail.
what other tool can do that? A multi head CNC?

Edit. Same link with new title.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/The-Multi-tool-system


And here you can see how the GTS can pay for it self in 20 minutes.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/ez-smart-routing
Just Imagine the rent that someone needs to pay
in order to have 50% of the versatility offered by todays "shootingboards"

Believe it or not,
This is one of this things that you have to see it to believe it.

One day, I saw one of my guys cutting 3" strips from
a 4x8 piece of plywood ($58.00 a sheet).:eek:
I knew that we have no need for this strips and I asked him
if he was making something for his house and he needs my help.
..(This guy never cut wood before in his life):confused:
His answer was: No. This is so easy that I can't stop my self.

I told him that he owes me $58.00 and that I have to deduct all the time that he wasted ...wasting the panel.:rolleyes: just for fun.:eek: :D
But, He got me there too.
For what? testing the tools to see how nice they work and ...for the few minutes that it take me to cut this panel?
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Edit For Dev. http://www.eurekazone.com/images/gallery/thinwood/big/8.jpg

[Burt Waddell]

cool! thanks dennis, i`m really curious what these guys have on my old 10" milwaukee and a plywood guide.....02 tod


Tod,

I have an old 10" Skil, a 6 1/2 cordless 18 volt Makita and 4 other saws in between all set for the GTS.

I bought my first system to use to break down plywood and straight line rip rough hard wood. I couldn't believe how nice it was when I tried it. I have now added two more systems.

Burt

[Rob Will]

this thread is a spin-off of another that seemed to me to be heading in the wrong direction. i don`t own and have never used the guided circular saw systems that are available. i`m pretty much in the dark, other than what i read on this forum. and unfortunately every time a thread about these systems starts it seems to get into a brand-x vs brand-y discussion. so if you kind folks could take the time to discuss the merits and potential merits of these systems in a commercial/construction enviornment i would really appreiciate the insite. please leave the manufacturers product names at the door so maybe this thread will be informative. dino and bob your input is more than welcome! i`m just trying to avoid the brand-bashing/pluging that goes on all too frequently..
thanks, tod

OK, I'll buy the Hillbilly part but you have burned all your bridges to pass as uninformed.;)

Rob

[Bill Fields]

Please re-read Dave Falkenstein's response--this describes my affinity to a GCSS--in my case the Eureka EZ GUide.

I am an amatueur and in no way do I depend on my tools for a living.

The important, but often overlooked, element of this system (and the Festool as well) is the TABLE.

Trust me when I say that one could consider, but not seriously, getting rid of their TS and RAS. There are so many other tasks that these saws can do, one would never reject them.

Just finished cabinet panels cut to final fit ONLY using the EZ System.

BILL

[Dev Emch]

Simple Answer. A guided saw system is the cat's meow for fine tuning stuff during install. It is a good compromise considering you dont have to move tons of machines and have access to industrial three phase power. But considering that one does have access to stand alone machines with three phase power, you will find your not using the guided saw system at all. Truth is, they are all a pain in the posterior to use esp. if your working super square corners on panel type cuts. I can blank a whole kitchen in a matter of a couple of hours or less from a huge stack of baltic birch ply. And not once do I need to check square! I check off my notebook's cut list but that is all. I would hate to have to depend on a guided saw system to do this work. But when the job site is 168 miles from your shop, your best friend is a guided saw system. So its all relative.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Simple Answer. A guided saw system is the cat's meow for fine tuning stuff during install. It is a good compromise considering you dont have to move tons of machines and have access to industrial three phase power. But considering that one does have access to stand alone machines with three phase power, you will find your not using the guided saw system at all. Truth is, they are all a pain in the posterior to use esp. if your working super square corners on panel type cuts. I can blank a whole kitchen in a matter of a couple of hours or less from a huge stack of baltic birch ply. And not once do I need to check square! I check off my notebook's cut list but that is all. I would hate to have to depend on a guided saw system to do this work. But when the job site is 168 miles from your shop, your best friend is a guided saw system. So its all relative.

Here is the truth.
A complete end panel in less than 60 sec. (cut-rout-line boring)
Cost of equipments: Less than $1.000.00

With no high rent, no heavy electric, no high insurance,
no dedicated and wasted space,
no chips, no measurements no taking the panel from one tool to another.
no specialized labors, no accidents,
and no Dev. (the historian woodworker):D :D :D

And the truth hits home some times.

Feedback from yesterday.
I am a wood worker that just lost my shop. I had large equipment such as beam saws and cnc's. I still have lots of work to get done, and all I have is a little portable table saw.....

Schools closing woodworking shops one after another.
People losing their fingers by the thousands every year.
And if someone likes to get into woodworking ...
he needs a second mortgage.

The truth can be yours and mine.
All the above is .....just the FACTS.

Yours.

[Frank Pellow]

Simple Answer. ... Truth is, they are all a pain in the posterior to use esp. if your working super square corners on panel type cuts. I can blank a whole kitchen in a matter of a couple of hours or less from a huge stack of baltic birch ply. And not once do I need to check square! ...

My experience is that guided tool systems are very very easy to use (not a "pain in the posterior" as you say Dev) and that I get square on panel type cuts all the time. :)

In the two years I have owned my system, I figure that I have made about 3000 cuts, dados, and rabbets and I have had only about 10 "wonky" results. And, only one of those times was it due to the guide rail slipping. The other times, I measured incorrectly (once yesterday :o).

[Dino Makropoulos]

My experience is that guided tool systems are very very easy to use (not a "pain in the posterior" as you say Dev) and that I get square on panel type cuts all the time. :)

In the two years I have owned my system, I figure that I have made about 3000 cuts, dados, and rabbets and I have had only about 10 "wonky" results. And, only one of those times was it due to the guide rail slipping. The other times, I measured incorrectly (once yesterday :o).

Frank.
Wait until you install the "Positioning System" in your rails.:cool: :cool:

[J.R. Rutter]

I've used one in the past for a cabinet job. The actual function - cutting a straight line - works well. Getting set up, handling long guides, clamping, etc. was a bit of a pain. I would rather have a vertical saw, but for light use, they guide system seems to work well. For doing flooring, or other portable type cuts, it would be superb. I ended up making a plywood guide for the few times a year I need a non tablesaw straight line cut. The dedicated systems work better than that though.

[Dino Makropoulos]

this thread is a spin-off of another that seemed to me to be heading in the wrong direction. i don`t own and have never used the guided circular saw systems that are available. i`m pretty much in the dark, other than what i read on this forum. and unfortunately every time a thread about these systems starts it seems to get into a brand-x vs brand-y discussion. so if you kind folks could take the time to discuss the merits and potential merits of these systems in a commercial/construction enviornment i would really appreiciate the insite. please leave the manufacturers product names at the door so maybe this thread will be informative. dino and bob your input is more than welcome! i`m just trying to avoid the brand-bashing/pluging that goes on all too frequently..
thanks, tod

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32391

[tod evans]

Tod,

I'll bring up a couple of GR setups for you to see and test drive when I come up next. Sound ok?


dennis, it`s been a while since this thread was alive and due to some of the discussions over the last couple of days i was wondering if sometime in the next couple of weeks i could come visit you and mark to see these in person? tod

[Lee DeRaud]

Bob Marino once told me that these tools "Offer solutions to problems" and I think that fits the description to a "T".Well, that's an attitude I can live with: I'm just shopping for tools, not choosing a new religion.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Simple Answer. A guided saw system is the cat's meow for fine tuning stuff during install. It is a good compromise considering you dont have to move tons of machines and have access to industrial three phase power. But considering that one does have access to stand alone machines with three phase power, you will find your not using the guided saw system at all. Truth is, they are all a pain in the posterior to use esp. if your working super square corners on panel type cuts. I can blank a whole kitchen in a matter of a couple of hours or less from a huge stack of baltic birch ply. And not once do I need to check square! I check off my notebook's cut list but that is all. I would hate to have to depend on a guided saw system to do this work. But when the job site is 168 miles from your shop, your best friend is a guided saw system. So its all relative.
Yep, they are a pain and the ultimate solution is a saw made for the job. But I think for people like myself with a small shop, the trade-off of "proper" and "pita" is worthwhile as there really isn't another good option. Especially working by oneself.

Then again, maybe that's why I only went through maybe 25 sheets of 18 mm and an equal amount of 12 mm BB a year. And that's when I had the cabinet shop running and more space.

Still have the small shop. I've cut down maybe 5 sheets all year. I used a handsaw. Works for me.

Take care, Mike

[Reg Mitchell]

cool! thanks dennis, i`m really curious what these guys have on my old 10" milwaukee and a plywood guide.....02 tod
Tod....not really sure it has anything over the milwaukee and guide.......its just a little more expensive. won't flex, I have one but still find myself grabbing the plywood if i'm in a hurry, then again I don't keep mine together all the time.....:D