Help me come up with a hand saw plan (long)

[Matt Meiser]

Next on my list of tool categories to "clean up" is hand saws. I've collected several saws, most of which aren't usable as-is. I'd like to get a few sharpened, probably add 1 and sell the rest. Here's a picture of most of what I have.

Starting at the top:
- A Disston, not sure of the model because the etching is gone. It is filed 12 TPI. 26" long.
- A Disston D100 filed 8 TPI. 26" long.
- A Disston D20 filed 6 TPI. 24" long. The D100 and D20 are probably the best condition-wise.
- A Craftsman that is filed 8 TPI. 26" long.
- A Crown gent's saw. I bought it new and had trouble with it and read that you should stone the sides of the teeth to get it to cut better. Well, apparently I did too much as now the blade binds in the kerf.
- A Disston back saw with a 12" blade filed 14 TPI.

I also have a flush trim saw for cutting off plugs and such that is fine and a fairly inexpensive Dozuki that is the saw I currently use all the time since it is the only one that I have that really works.

I'm thinking that I should get two of the large saws sharpened and get rid of the other two, but I'm not sure which ones to keep. I'm not sure if I should keep the back saw or the gents saw. I'm also not sure what instructions to give the sharpener on how I want them filed. I talked to someone at Cook's Sharpening & Grinding in York, PA almost a year ago, but never sent him anything because I wasn't sure what to send him. I'm thinking about adding a good 8" dovetail saw like the Adria.

To clarify, I'm mostly an electron-burner, but am finding the value in hand tools for detail work, finish work, and where I have something to do that will require more setup time than just doing it by hand. I'm also planning to learn to hand cut dovetails.

So what would you recommend that I keep, get rid of, and add?

[John Edwards]

Simple,
send them all to Steve and Les (sorry Mike, you keep the new ones coming) at Cookes. Let Steve make the answwer for you. He can do magic on saws. Is honest on his opinions and prices. And best of all does darn good work.
In the past year I think he has done some 20-30 saws for me.
He is your man.

http://www.cookessharpening.com/

[Dave Anderson NH]

Hi Matt, Keep them all. All are in pretty good shape though they could benefit from a slight bit of cleaning. As for how to sharpen and set them. I'd keep 2 of them filed rip, one at 4 tpi and one at 6 tpi. Alternately keep them all filed at crosscut and buy a couple of rip filed saws.

For cross cuts I'd keep one at 8 tpi an one at 12 tpi. I'd also look for a small panel saw sized crosscut in the 16" to 20" range. They are really handy if you want to make that one quick cut of a board clamped in a bench vise. It saves the trouble of going over to the tablesaw, plugging it in, setting the miter guage or crosscut sled, and finally making the cut. Handsaws can be real time and step savers.

For the 12" backsaw, if it's 14 tpi and filed crosscut use it for a carcass saw and as a small miter box saw. You can also cut tenon shoulders with it. If it is a rip saw, it is ideal for use as a tenon saw. See, again you're one saw short of what you really need.:D

The Crown gents saw can be refiled and reset. While not a great saw, it can be used as a backup or for small work.

[Bob Smalser]

You can do a lifetime worth of work with 6 saws:

A long rip saw in 28" 4-7ppi. (Lower ppi for softwoods, higher for hardwoods)

A long crosscut in 26" 6-9ppi.

A long or short crosscut for finer work 10-12ppi.

A tenon saw like your Disston #4 in 12 ppi rip. (Another in 14 ppi crosscut can be handy, but your flushcutter below will work, too.)

A dovetail saw like your Crown in 14 ppi crosscut and an identical one in 14 ppi rip. (Although just the crosscut flavor alone has served many, and well.)

A zero-set flushcutter like the smaller of the Japanese pull saws or Shark disposable saws.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=8198&highlight=sharpening+saws

For bench work, you don't really need hand saws shorter than 26", and why not try sharpening your own if the teeth are uniform?

Sharpening hand saws is easy enough...you can make your own saw vise and afford to buy 3 or 4, 4-dollar slim taper files and a saw set. The only reason to send one out is for retoothing if you have one either missing teeth or teeth so badly out of shape the saw has to be jointed severely.

The reason to avoid most sharpening shops is that they routinely shear in new teeth that'll fit their saw filing machine perfectly....and you'll lose an 8th of an inch or more off that blade when often only a couple thou was required...and those power setting machines can do an awful job, deforming the teeth, compared to hand setting. If you need new teeth, you'll have saw/tool sharpening services locally that can shear in new teeth, and you can set and file them yourself. Plus you'll need two of each saw if you have to send them out for a month at a time every time they need a touchup.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Next on my list of tool categories to "clean up" is hand saws. I've collected several saws, most of which aren't usable as-is. I'd like to get a few sharpened, probably add 1 and sell the rest. Here's a picture of most of what I have.

Starting at the top:
- A Disston, not sure of the model because the etching is gone. It is filed 12 TPI. 26" long.
- A Disston D100 filed 8 TPI. 26" long.
- A Disston D20 filed 6 TPI. 24" long. The D100 and D20 are probably the best condition-wise.
- A Craftsman that is filed 8 TPI. 26" long.
- A Crown gent's saw. I bought it new and had trouble with it and read that you should stone the sides of the teeth to get it to cut better. Well, apparently I did too much as now the blade binds in the kerf.
- A Disston back saw with a 12" blade filed 14 TPI.



Matt, what are you going to be cutting? Soft or hardwood? I like an 8 tpi xcut for soft wood like pine two by fours and a 4 1/2 for ripping same. For hardwoods, I use a finer 10 tpi xcut and 6 or 7 tpi for ripping. 12 tpi is for making really fine cuts across the grain and I think its kinda slow for my small amount of patience.

Have cook's joint and sharpen the d100 8 tpi xcut, and the d20 6 tpi rip. Give them a try and see how you like they way they work, then you can decide how to procede from there.

That backsaw will make a very fine cut, but be too slow for my taste. I'd file it 12 tpi rip or xcut, depending on its intended use. Rip for tenon sawing and xcut for miter sawing. All my dovetail saws are 15 tpi rip.

[Matt Meiser]

Most of my hand tool use would be in hardwoods. For construction lumber, I might grab a hand saw for something I couldn't cut with a powered saw, but usually I'd just use the miter saw or circular saw.

I think even ripping would be a rare occurrence, but since it won't cost more than the price of a sharpening at this point, it would be worth having. I think more along the lines of an occasional cross cut plus detail work is where most of my use would be.

[Richard Gillespie]

Matt;

You have received very good advice from a number of people in reply to your question. Both Dave Anderson and Bob Smalser would be the experts I'd ask my questions of. However, I would suggest that, since you are presently a power tool user with the beginnings of an interest in hand saws, to stay away from rip saws in your longer saws. Ripping is drudgery when done for a long period of time. I've tried it and will use power saws whenever possible. The rip saw that would come in handy would be a smaller one for dovetails and tenons. A Japanese pull saw would also work quite well for that. Sheet goods I always use power equiptment to cut.

On the other hand, if I only have one or two cross cuts to make I'll almost always reach for a hand saw. This is particularly true if I would have to pull out a skill saw and extension cord. I can use a hand saw much faster.

[Matt Meiser]

Thanks for all the input so far. I think that Richard is right that I would probably do rip cuts on the TS or BS--I would venture to say 99.9%+ of the time. I definitely don't need multiple rip saws. Sounds like I should keep the back saw and get it sharpened for rip cuts to give me the ability to do tenons.

If I buy the Adria, is there any reason to keep the Crown? I really don't need multiple backups.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Thanks for all the input so far. I think that Richard is right that I would probably do rip cuts on the TS or BS--I would venture to say 99.9%+ of the time. I definitely don't need multiple rip saws. Sounds like I should keep the back saw and get it sharpened for rip cuts to give me the ability to do tenons.

If I buy the Adria, is there any reason to keep the Crown? I really don't need multiple backups.

I have a fine tooth gents saw sharpened crosscut, almost like a veneer saw, that I use for cutting small parts on a bench hook. Its got a very narrow kerf and cuts very smoothly. You might want to keep your gents saw and have it resharpened for that.

[Alan DuBoff]

I have a fine tooth gents saw sharpened crosscut, almost like a veneer saw, that I use for cutting small parts on a bench hook. Its got a very narrow kerf and cuts very smoothly. You might want to keep your gents saw and have it resharpened for that.OTOH, maybe Matt should get a file for $5 and learn how to sharpen it himself. No matter how sharp a handsaw is, it will need to be sharpened if you use it.

This is a skill that all woodworkers should have. If you don't know how to do this, you might consider learning how. Bob Smalser's tutorial is good, as is the one on vintagesaws.com, as Brendler's as well (old handsaw FAQ).

If you plan to rip and crosscut large panels on your table saw or band saw, as you imply, you could get by with only your 2 backsaws.

[Matt Meiser]

I want to get them filed the first time by a pro, then I'll learn to touch them up. To me, it is worth the cost to have the most time consuming part done by someone else so I can spend my free time doing something I actually enjoy.

[Bob Smalser]

I want to get them filed the first time by a pro, then I'll learn to touch them up.

That's a start.

Problem is, you won't get it "filed by a pro" for 20 bucks...you'll get new teeth sheared in, around twice as much set as needed stamped in by a machine that damages the teeth, and the saw filed by a mechanical saw filer set up to match the retoother.

Real "pro filers" used to straighten and retension the blade as required, joint with a long mill file for better uniformity than the store-bought saw jointers provide, joint in some mild breast by eye if desired, retooth by machine only as a last resort, then hand set and hand file, often with sloped gullets and low back fleam to provide the most efficient teeth that can't be done by machine. Those fellas are mostly dead, but a few are still around that can teach you even if they can't see well enought to file any more.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

That's a start.

Problem is, you won't get it "filed by a pro" for 20 bucks...you'll get new teeth sheared in, around twice as much set as needed stamped in by a machine that damages the teeth, and the saw filed by a mechanical saw filer set up to match the retoother.

Real "pro filers" used to straighten and retension the blade as required, joint with a long mill file for better uniformity than the store-bought saw jointers provide, joint in some mild breast by eye if desired, retooth by machine only as a last resort, then hand set and hand file, often with sloped gullets and low back fleam to provide the most efficient teeth that can't be done by machine. Those fellas are mostly dead, but a few are still around that can teach you even if they can't see well enought to file any more.

Bob, Cooke's will do it the old fashioned way, by hand, for between $20 and $30 plus shipping, depending on how much work needs to be done.

[Matt Meiser]

Anyone know how Cooke's does their sharpening? I've seen a lot of recommendations for them.
Edit - Dennis answered while I was typing my post.

I'm leaning towards getting the D20 sharpened as a rip saw and a D100 as a crosscut saw. I'll probably keep the other two and just hang them up on the wall so that if I want to sharpen them some day I'll have them. I have a variety of antique tools and "stuff" on the upper 4' of my 12' high walls as decor. I'd get the back saw filed as a crosscut saw. I'll also add either an Adria, LN or one of Mike Wenzloff's dovetail saws. That's a tough call because everyone likes whichever of these they have from what I can find. I'll unload the crown and keep around a dozuki for general work. And my Lowes Stanley flush cut saw will stay for that purpose.

[Matt Meiser]

Bob, Cooke's will do it the old fashioned way, by hand, for between $20 and $30 plus shipping, depending on how much work needs to be done.

For me, that's worth the cost. I've had the files for 2 years and haven't gotten motivated to sharpen the saws.

[Alan DuBoff]

For me, that's worth the cost. I've had the files for 2 years and haven't gotten motivated to sharpen the saws.Certainly your decision on what to do. Since you have the files, it would take very little to file your saws.

I know from experience that the Crown gent's saw need to be sharpened when new, to be usable. I made a saw for a gift that used a Crown 8" gent's saw, it was useless on hardwood until it was sharpened by hand, and had some set removed.

The hardsaws would be good to practice on.

Bob Smalser's tutorial that a 12 year old can follow, Leif Hanson's excellent tutorial, Pete Taran's tutorial, and even Brendler's old saw faq, there's way more info available plus you can get Tom Law's video for about $20 and it would show you how to file a saw quickly.

My $0.02.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

For me, that's worth the cost. I've had the files for 2 years and haven't gotten motivated to sharpen the saws.

Matt, make sure you specify hand sharpening when you send them in because they do both machine and hand sharpening. I sharpen most of my own saws, but I' not very good at jointing really badly sharpened teeth. I send those to Cooke's.

[Matt Meiser]

I just ordered the Adria from Tools For Woodworking. I think I'll try to get the other saws sent off to Cooke's next week.