Kitchen Cabinets

[charlie kapper]

I am about to plan a kitchen remodel and am considering building the kitchen cabinets myself. I just came back from one of the big box stores and get a little sticker shock with what we want. Before I decide to undertake this project, I need to determine what my costs would be. My first question is what type of plywood is typically used. I believe that the inside face is coated specifically for kitchen cabinets. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.
I am not lacking the tools required to build cabinets and consider myself an average woodworker.

[Tyler Howell]

Hi Charlie,
Welcome. May I suggest a few practice runs before you take on the kitchen. SWMBO will have your head if you tear up her kitchen.
If this is your first attempt a box making give shop cabinets a dry run. Focus on joinery techniques, and precission.
Everything that you saw at the borg can be used in your shop for kit cabs. BB, melamine, maple, veneer luane........
Good luck and keep us posted. We love pictures

[Jim Becker]

Welcome aboard, Charlie! Glad to see you here at SMC.

I chose to build my cabinets when I did our kitchen renovation in 2003. It saved a TON of money, leaving more for the high-end appliances. Cabinetry is relatively easy work, too. Tyler's advice (as always...) to get your feet wet first is a good one as you will be better able to plan your big job once you construct something similar.

[Brad Kimbrell]

I am in the same boat. I've built many pieces of furniture, but not any plywood boxes.

What would you guys say is the most difficult part of doing so?

And how much can I plan to save over buying from a cabinet shop or big-box store?

[Jim Becker]

And how much can I plan to save over buying from a cabinet shop or big-box store?

While it's not strictly about the cabinets, let's just say that my kitchen would have cost us $50-60K in this area for the equivalent work (includes everything) and I did the job for $20K including the high-end appliances. 'Only sub-ed out the drywall (I hate doing drywall and could work the real job while they did it), the soapstone counter tops and the gas line. My cabinets cost approximately $1200 to build including purchased drawer boxes. (to save time I had a supplier build them to spec)

[Bob Johnson2]

Yet another guy getting ready to build a kitchen. I just get done today with a bathroom vanity and wall unit. The most difficult part for this rookie is finishing, took a long time as I don't have a spray setup. One cabinet took me months as the list of firsts is pretty long. For each first I built something to try it out before going to the vanity. And of course each new task I had to buy something, and I thought I had plenty before I started. Makes staying inside a monthly budget tough. Great practice before starting the kitchen though.

1st raised panel doors on a shaper (scary)
1st try at handcut dovetails (enjoyed the heck out of it)
1st try at router cut dovetails (didn't care for these)
1st try at drawer construction, and hardware.
1st use of euro hinges
1st use of pocket screws
1st use of maple
1st time dyeing anything.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Charlie,
Probably the worst part for me is finishing the cabinets. This is difficult and time consuming. An HVLP sprayer may make things a little less messy, but the amount of work is still the same.

If you use plywood for the carcasses, I recommend pre-finishing them first. You can use a roller to apply clear finishes if you don't want to spray. I have seen pre-finished plywood on TV (This Old House or the New Yankee Workshop), but I have no idea where to procure it.

The easiest option is to use melamine. The benefits are: no finishing, easy to clean the surface, and the white melamine provides a lot of brightness in the cabinet when your hunting for that can of baked beans. The edges can be banded with the wood you are using on the door fronts, or you can attach a face frame for more traditional cabinets. The exterior cabinet sides that are in view can be clad with 1/4" hardwood plywood, or an adhesive backed veneer that are available from Rockler.

cheers, Jeff

[Richard Maurer]

Charlie: I was in exactly the same boat you're in 8 years ago. Bought a 40 year old rambler needing a new kitchen in N. Virginia. Discovered the cabinets would run around $26K (minimum) for a basic set of cabinets, which was the budget for the whole kitchen (probably unrealistic at the time). After our sticker shock, the LOML asked me what it would take to build our own cabinets. Mind you, I had done little-to-no cabinetry at this point in my life. I owned a Ryobi BT3000 table saw, some power tools, and a few hand tools and that was it!!! Necessity being the mother of invention, I decided if I bought a good bandsaw I could build the cabinets - which we did. Saved a TON of money by buying A1 birch and cherry ply from a local supplier for the carcasses and had the doors/drawer fronts made by Evans Cabinet and Door (www.evanscabinetanddoor.com (http://www.evanscabinetanddoor.com)).

In the end, we were able to install a Viking 6 burner gas stove, cherry cabinets, granite counter tops for our budget. (BTW, I bought the JET 18" bandsaw for the job, which I still have).

The best part of the story is that we trippled the value of our house in 4 years and sold it. 2 houses, many tools and lots of other projects later I now do woodworking full time and live on a 20 acre horse farm in the country.

My suggestion - study and learn how to build the cabinets yourself and go for it!!

Best of luck, Rich

[Larry Fox]

I am currently working on a set (my first) and I just looked at my spreadsheet where I am tracking the costs to the penny and I am at $2,021.78. I have everything (I think) except;

- Ply for boxes and shelves
- Drawer Slides
- Crown molding (I am not setup to make this)
- Finish for doors and drawer fronts
- Knobs and pulls

Based on this, I think I can reasonably expect to have another $1,000 into them.

I am building mine out of cherry. The numbers are definitely skewed as I scored a major bargan on some cherry and maple and ply for drawers. All the maple required for 17 drawers, all the 1/4" BB ply for drawer bottoms, all the cherry for face frames, door rails and stiles, and solid wood end panels cost me (effectively) nothing. I only mention it as I estimate that saved me about $1,000 so that will need to be added back in if you are basing anything on my numbers.

To give you a sense of scale, my kitchen has 14 cabinets and they break down like this;

1 giant floor-to-celing pantry cabinet
7 wall cabinets (one is a corner cabinet)
6 base cabinets (two are corner cabinets and one is an under-the-sink)

The one thing I can say about this particular project if you are contemplating it is that it takes a LOT OF TIME so definitely be prepared for that - I was not. I have been at it since November dedicating as much time as a average hobbiest can (maybe a bit more even). That said, I have found the process to be extremely rewarding and I suspect the end result will be worth it.

Shoot me a PM and I will be happy to share any information, hints, gotcha's, etc that I have encountered along the way as a first-time builder.

[Brad Kimbrell]

Saved a TON of money by buying A1 birch and cherry ply from a local supplier for the carcasses and had the doors/drawer fronts made by Evans Cabinet and Door

This seems to be pretty common - having the doors and drawer fronts made by pros - why not just mount the bits on the old router table and go for it? I'm sure there are good answers out there, but I'm just naive enough to believe that I could do a good job on the frames.???

I do have the 16-32 Performax and have flatened some table tops with it and some ROS touch ups. What's the issue with making the doors?

[brent lenthall]

Making doors isn't hard, but many people outsource to door shops to speed up a job and have more choices of profiles, etc.. (Esp. on raised panels). I recently outsouced some raised panel Cherry doors for an entertainment center. The doors were UPS'd to my shop, pre sanded for slightly more than I would have paid for the lumber. The door shop is setup with equipment I couldn't even begin to justify.

brent

[Dave Falkenstein]

I agree with the earlier post about using melamine to build the cabinet carcasses. You can buy melamine that is coated on one side or on both sides, if you go to a sheet goods supplier instead of a big box store. Using a veneer on the exposed sides and the bottoms of the upper cabinets will give the carcass exteriors the look of hardwood for a fraction of the price, and the carcasses need no finishing, except for the veneer.

If you elect to buy the doors and drawer fronts, check out this source:

http://www.caldoor.com/home.htm

I have used California Door a couple of times with excellent results. They send you doors and drawer fronts, built to your specs with hundreds of profile combibations and wood options to choose from. It is hard to buy the necessary raised panel bits and materials for what you can buy the doors. If you don't already have a router table, then you have a significant investment in tools to just get to the point that you can start building doors. You wiil need to finish the doors, so that will still give you lots of personal contribution.

Build your own face frames from the same material you select for the doors and drawers, and you will have great looking cabinets that are easy to care for.

[Phil Phelps]

You may want to out source the doors. The interior for many cabinets, manufacturers use colored melamine. You may want to use a vertical grade laminate, as I do, for your interior. You need to decide on the style of cabinets you desire, as this may narrow down how much you want to build. It does boil down to finish, paint or stain. Either should be sprayed for best results. Cabinest ain't rocket science, but skill and talent never hurt.

[Jalin Key]

Charlie, I just made this cabinet set for my utility room. I love the look of soft maple with no stain. Learning from all these guys and others really helped me through it. 3/4" ply carcuss. And made doors myself. Learned a lot on this project.

[Tom Peterson]

Charlie,
I am about 30% of the way through my cabinets for my kitchen. I concur with the other posts. It is a lot of work, but worth it. I am using 3/4" ply for the carcass and have sub-contracted for doors, drawer fronts and drawers. I do not have enough time to build all of that and the pro shop can do it better faster and cheaper. I have 22 cabinets that I am building. To Jim Beckers point, you can add a lot for little more money. We upgraded to inset drawers and doors with an integral bead around the opening. All the sizes are now custom instead of working with stock sizes so we get exactly what we want. Also, the box shop is fitting the doors to the openings for $7 ea and drilling the Blum hinge holes. I think my cabinet bill is a little higher than most do it yourselfers. By the time it is finished(paint with glaze and laminate on the insides) I am guessing $6K, Shame of it is that the countertops are more and so are the appliances. Our quote for stock cabinets was ~22K installed. Good luck,

[Bill Fields]

Charlie, and everyone:

I concur with all the above. If you want/need to get really proficient, build shop cabinets, fixtures and jigs. Then graduate to your laundry room and garage.

I especially concur with buying the doors and drawer fronts--more so doors than drawer fronts.

Installing ball-bearing drawer slides can be a pain until you've done a few dozen. (Rocklers jigs are a huge help.)

THis thread is a great example of why I really like this forum. Good advice from pros and amatuers alike.

Good luck--and much patience!

Bill

PS: Also look into one of the guided circular systems for cabinet panels. I like the EZ Guide, but others prefer the Festool.

[Rob Blaustein]

Yet another guy getting ready to build a kitchen. I just get done today with a bathroom vanity and wall unit. The most difficult part for this rookie is finishing, took a long time as I don't have a spray setup. One cabinet took me months as the list of firsts is pretty long. For each first I built something to try it out before going to the vanity. And of course each new task I had to buy something, and I thought I had plenty before I started. Makes staying inside a monthly budget tough. Great practice before starting the kitchen though.

1st raised panel doors on a shaper (scary)
1st try at handcut dovetails (enjoyed the heck out of it)
1st try at router cut dovetails (didn't care for these)
1st try at drawer construction, and hardware.
1st use of euro hinges
1st use of pocket screws
1st use of maple
1st time dyeing anything.
Funny, I'm one step behind you Bob--I hope to tackle some kitchen cabinets in 1-2 yrs, and am in the process of building a bathroom vanity. I am actually doing kind of a dry run, as Tyler suggested, using mostly Birch veneer ply from Home Depot. I just finished putting together 2 of the 3 units (the harder 2). When these are finished and I start on the real thing with the much pricier walnut veneered ply, I will move these cabinets into the shop as I sorely need a set there. I haven't gotten to the drawer parts, or the finishing though.

Charlie, good luck. You are likely more experience than I, but for what it's worth-this has been relatively challenging for me. It took me a while to come up with the design and the exact dimensions. In fact doing the dry run and putting the vanity in place has made me realize that I need to make a few subtle changes dimension-wise. I suspect constructing the actual cabinets will go much more quickly now that I am a lot more comfortable with much of the equipment in my shop. I would echo the suggestion to consider a guided circular saw system to help cutting sheet goods down to size. I used the Festool system and it has been terrific.

[Bill Fields]

Charlie/Rob:

The book--I have bought dozens of WW books, some helpful--the one that helped me most was "The Complete Cabinet Makers Reference" by Jeffrey Pionkowski. I believe available on Amazon, or Popular Woodworking's website--about $25 or so.

IF ONE can follow the instructions here--and they are not always clear--then you will manufacture casework/cabinets like a pro.

Again, great thread!

Thank you SMC!

BILL

[Frank Eppler]

Charlie,
When I did my kitchen, I had the same problem with never having done anything like it before.:( To see if I could do it I built a few test cabinets and even finished them in different ways. All turned out well with my new kitchen and I have some very nice cabinets in my shop, also. As for the cost, the money I saved allowed me to buys much nicer appliances.:)

Frank

[Richard Blaine]

If you're going to have face frames, get a pocket hole jig. I was amazed at how much faster my faceframes went together as opposed to a more traditional method like doweling.

[Scott Parks]

IMHO, I'm tired of traditional cabinets with faceframes. Learn the frameless system and use your pocket jig to put togeter the carcases, instead. Much faster, and maybe even easier. I like the look of all the drawers and door fronts in the same plane without gaps between each other. It looks smoother, and less choppy. Do a google for a file called "Blum Process32". This will give you a bit of an idea on getting started with framless construction.

My favorite part of frameless construction is being able to finish your carcass panels before assmebly. Just for a side story, I'm trimming out the ends of my kitchen cabinet runs with real maple (they were fake melamine ie: CHEAP). It was SO MUCH faster to prefinish the whole sheet before cutting/installation.

As far as drawers go... They aren't that time consuming or hard. Again, prefinish sheets of 1/2" baltic birch. Rip off perpendicular peices to the length for all of your drawer sides/fronts. Then, rip those to width. By cutting one peice of ply first to your required length, then all your peices come out to the same length after you rip them to width. This way I don't have to crosscut 4 peices for every drawer. They're already cut to length. I hope this made sense.

Then, set up a 1/4" dado in the table saw, 1/4" deep, and fence 1/4" from blade. Groove every peice for the bottom. Then, run the end of each side trough, 90* to the blade to create a dado to accept the fronts and backs. Last, run the end of each front and back trough vertically (like tenoning), or move the fence up to the blade. Cut your bottoms from prefinished 1/4 BB. If you prefer, you can round over the top edges on the router. Assemble, roll the cut edges with finish with a foam trim roller, and viola, you're drawer boxes are done... EZ...

I've never done an entire kitchen, but for an occasional vanity, built-in, or shop cabinets, this method is easy for me.

[Rob Blaustein]

...I like the look of all the drawers and door fronts in the same plane without gaps between each other. It looks smoother, and less choppy...

...My favorite part of frameless construction is being able to finish your carcass panels before assmebly...
Hi Scott,
I'm confused about these two sentences of yours that I extracted. Isn't eveything also in the same plane with a faceframe and overlay doors and panels. Do you mean that there is a bigger reveal between the elements, and you like the more flush look?

Why can't you finish the carcass panels before you assemble when you do a faceframe design--I was hoping to do that and didn't anticipate any problems.

--Rob

[Larry D. Wagner]

Charlie,

We are just getting done figuring kitchen cabinets for my son's new house that will be being built in about 6 weeks. It's not a real big kitchen, but the maple cabinets that he and his wife have picked out priced out at close to $11,000.00 at the Box stores(HD and Menards). We will be making them for an estimated cost of $4500.00 including all wood materials, very expensive drawer glides and a few quality sets of cutters for the type they have chosen. As has been pointed out, do a practice run on a cabinet or two that you might use in your shop. Please feel free to PM me as I will tell you about the procedures I use when making cabinets.

Larry:) :) :)

[Scott Parks]

Hi Scott,
I'm confused about these two sentences of yours that I extracted. Isn't eveything also in the same plane with a faceframe and overlay doors and panels. Do you mean that there is a bigger reveal between the elements, and you like the more flush look?

Why can't you finish the carcass panels before you assemble when you do a faceframe design--I was hoping to do that and didn't anticipate any problems.

--Rob
Sorry Rob, but I made that clear as mud... 1st, You're right. I stand corrected. You CAN prefinish the carcase materials even with face frames... You can build the same way, just add a frame to the front if you desire. However, if you have a rigid, square back to the carcase, there is no need to use a face frame to square up or stiffen the carcase. I may have been more clear by leaving that statement out. I made an incorrect statement... Busted...

2nd... If you have say 1-1/2" inch face frames, and the doors are only 5/8" inch overlay, then there are TWO front planes. One, the face frame, two is the door/drawer. Look at Jalin's maple cabs in post #14. Now look at Mr. Singer's balboa house cabs... http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=27461&page=5&highlight=balboa+house+cabinets There is little gap between doors/drawers, making the front only one surface... Smooth.... With face frames and the smooth look, you have to make inset doors. More time consuming and fidgiting to get them perfect....

Hope I made more sense this time...

[Jeff Monson]

Charlie, I'll throw in my 2 cents here also, We were bid 8900.00 for maple cabinets from a local custom shop, so I decided to tackle it myself, I'll have 2800 into materials and better quality hardware, hinges and slides, I chose to go with maple also, and I chose to use maply ply for my carcases, I've got the uppers done and have just completed my sink base and still have a few lowers, a pantry and an island left. We chose to do the island and a few accents on the cabinets in cherry to make a contrast in the kitchen, I'm really excited to see the final outcome as my cabinets so far look great.

If you can make the cabinet frames and carcases I cant see why you'd want to buy the doors, I've made my raised panel doors and exposed end panels and they look great. I'll try to post some pics of my progress so far if you'd like.

there are more benefits than one can imagine by doing it yourself, I'll have alot more tools when I'm done and they are basically free for what I've saved, I will come out of this with flooring, appliances and tools for what I would have spent in cabinets alone and in my opinion they look just as good as if not better than the custom shop has to offer.

I bought two books on building your own cabinets and I also purchased a software program called "cabinet cruncher" for a total of 70$ for all three, this has been the best 70$ I've spent so far, the books have taught me the processes I need to know and the software program is awesome, after the setups are done you can have cutlists that are 100% accurate within minutes for a complete kitchen, including carcases, face frames, raised panel doors and half blind dovetail drawers!!!

the only drawback for me so far has been the time to do it as a full time job and 2 kids take up 22 of the 24 available hours in the day, but I'm in no hurry and have over 1/2 my project completed within 2 months, so if I'm done by the middle of summer we will all be happy.

[Rob Blaustein]

2nd... If you have say 1-1/2" inch face frames, and the doors are only 5/8" inch overlay, then there are TWO front planes. One, the face frame, two is the door/drawer. Look at Jalin's maple cabs in post #14. Now look at Mr. Singer's balboa house cabs... http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=27461&page=5&highlight=balboa+house+cabinets There is little gap between doors/drawers, making the front only one surface... Smooth.... With face frames and the smooth look, you have to make inset doors. More time consuming and fidgiting to get them perfect....

Hope I made more sense this time...

OK, now I see what you mean about the look of the face frame plus overlay vs the flush look of frameless. I have another question, but I'll email/PM directly since it might be too specific for this thread.

[Chris Dodge]

Before I went professional I wanted to redo my kitchen so I helped my neighbor, who was remodeling his house, remove his cabinets, which had been build by a custom cabinet maker. I took a look at how his were made and then ripped my kitchen out the next day. I did everything, including electrical and plumbing, except for the gas line and tape and mud. I learned so much from the project and saved myself many thousands of dollars.

Now that I do this work for others I purchase my doors. The doors usually cost just slightly more than the wood itself would have cost and saves me the time and hastle.