PDA

View Full Version : A New House-Update #27 Really Long-No Pix



Karl Laustrup
02-25-2006, 12:47 PM
February 25th, 2006

Well, I was pretty well bummed out and steaming mad yesterday. :mad: The events of Monday with the plumbing sub came to a head.

First, some background as to the plumbers from Monday. I had requested a floor drain in the laundry room just in case a washer hose burst. This has happened to me before, so I know the headaches it can cause.:(

I was informed that in order to put a floor drain in, the floor would have to be built up and sloped and basically just coming up with reasons not to do it. Well, after arguing for a while the plumber suggested a pan under the washer with a hole cut to drain any water into the crawl space. I said this was un-acceptable. So then he suggested running a tube or pipe over to the sump. OK that sounds reasonable as a secondary solution.

The plumbers also installed the handicapped shower stall and got the supply and valve locations drilled in the acryilic shower wall. Wednesday while looking at the shower, both the shower stall and our custom shower stall, I noticed that they had put the supply [shower head] and valve body dead center in each of the showers. No problem you say. Well, yes there is a problem because I'm having adjustable personal shower bars installed. These will have a shower head connected to a hose so it can be a hand held or mount on this bar and be adjusted up and down for tall or shorter persons. The personal shower bar should be mounted in the center with the supply and valve offset one way or the other. Both can not be mounted in the center.

Friday the plumber came back and we discussed [heatedly] the problem I saw with the installation. He changed the location in the MB shower but the shower stall presented a problem. He wasn't budging, saying that's the way he installs all of them he puts in and me saying I can't believe you mount a shower head off center. Round and round we went.

Later in the day, Gary from Schluters came by and agreed that what I was contending was correct. He mentioned that if I wanted a new shower enlclosure it would basically shut down the job for at least three weeks. Not acceptable. Other options? Do it the way the plumber was going to do it. Not acceptable. Or, he had talked to someone who can patch the holes and make them look like new. Then the plumber can drill new holes and everything will be right. This sounded like a good compromise.

Until, I started looking at the shower enclosure closer. The personal shower bar is 30" long. I'm not sure it will be able to be mounted high enough as this enclosure has a roof. So this morning LOML and I head out to HD where I originally saw this personal shower bar and measure it.
32715

LOML and I head to the house as I have an idea of what we can do if the shower bar will not fit properly. The shower bar will not mount high enough to be useful, so LOML and I decided to go with what's there. We'll just use one of those detachable hand held shower heads with the hose.


While the solution is satisfactory and more benificial I still am upset with this plumber. His attitude is one of "I'm going to do it my way, I don't care what you want", although in this case it turned out for the better. We still have to see where he "thinks" he's going to put the tankless water heater and our pressure tank for our water supply. I also have decided against the pan under the washing machine. It would make the washer impossible to slide out without disconnecting the hose underneath and probably ruining the pan. So, we'll just have to make sure we change the supply hoses periodically.

The inspector came but hasn't signed off on the rough ins yet. He has an issue with something the plumber did. Surprise, surprise. The roof did get completed Friday and Benny and Dan finished up most of what they can for the time being. They will be working at another job site next week, only coming back if there are some things that need to be done for the insulation, drywall or siding. Still no idea when the siding will be done, but it almost has to be done before next Friday as that's when they are planning to do the ceiling insulation and we at least need the soffits done to do that.

Thanks for taking the time to read my drivel. I do feel better just putting all this down in writing. It might even help to temper my feelings toward the plumber. Maybe!!

Karl

Frank Pellow
02-25-2006, 1:04 PM
Thanks for the update and sorry about the plumbing problems.

By the way Karl, did, I ever tell you that I HATE PLUMBING :( . I'm not to bad at it, but I really really dislkie it. And I really really dislike the way that the makers of plumbing parts keep "improving" them.

Andy Hoyt
02-25-2006, 1:29 PM
Yup. Plumbing is one of the last great mysteries for me. Quite likely it will always be so.

Easy fix Karl - Fire up that new beast of yours and build a privy. Then when repairs or modifications are needed you only need a hammer, saw, nails, a shovel, and ----------------------- a gas mask.

Jim Becker
02-25-2006, 1:33 PM
Karl, in my area, the pans under the washer are required by code...check on this... ;)

Sorry to hear of your plumbing issues. I really don't like it when a contractor forgets that you are the customer!

Cecil Arnold
02-25-2006, 1:36 PM
Karl, we built our own house back in 1984, since sold, and I acted as my own GC. Had a bunch of really good people building, we dried in in 19 work days and that was on a 3 story with some tricky stuff included. We probably added 2 days to the 19 due to wet conditions at the job site. The only crafts person I ran off the job was a plumber. Like Frank, I can do plumbing, but LOML will tell you that she hears the worst curse words when I'm doing plumbing.

edit: I was always told that you only needed to know three things to be a plumber, 1) stuff rund down hill, 2) pay day is on Friday, 3) don't pick your teeth with your finger nails.:) :rolleyes:

Jim O'Dell
02-25-2006, 1:41 PM
Karl, on your next run back to HD, check on their supply hoses. There is a new hose that has some sort of flow monitor in it, if the hose were to burst, it shuts off the flow. They weren't that expensive, IIRC about 15.00 each. They were metal braided hoses, and really didn't look any different than a regular hose. Look into them, it might give a little bit of security without the pan. If your washer was on the 2nd floor, I'd insist on a pan! Jim.

Randy Moore
02-25-2006, 1:44 PM
Customer is always right even if he is wrong he is always right. Talk to plumbers his boss and maybe you can get him outta there.

Hoiuse is looking good. You might be in in no time.

Randy

Ernie Nyvall
02-25-2006, 2:29 PM
Karl, sorry about your plumber woes, but glad to hear you are working it out. Don't let up on him.

Ernie

Frank Pellow
02-25-2006, 2:45 PM
Yup. Plumbing is one of the last great mysteries for me. Quite likely it will always be so.

Easy fix Karl - Fire up that new beast of yours and build a privy. Then when repairs or modifications are needed you only need a hammer, saw, nails, a shovel, and ----------------------- a gas mask.
Privy's I am happy to build. :) It's the running water stuff that I don't like :( (because often that stuff appears not to like me).

Vaughn McMillan
02-26-2006, 4:49 AM
Well Karl, it's about high time you got a substandard sub. ;) Every job seems to have one, and I was getting worried that yours hadn't shown up yet. I see he has now. Sorry to hear you're having difficulties with him, but looks like you've got things under control. On the plus side, it looks like all the other trades are kicking tail and taking names.

- Vaughn

Ray Bersch
02-26-2006, 11:07 AM
Karl, I can tell you are really ticked....this is the second issue #26. But that's probably because there are only 26 letters in the alphabet, right?

I have been following along and admiring your steady progress - great job. I should have PM'd you in the beginning with my lecture #247 concerning the care and feeding of subcontractors. That might have avoided your issues with the plumber - or not, because there will always be some problem with someone on this type of job. But it is your job to get those guys to accomplish what you want, after all, you are using the most powerful tool on the job - the paycheck.

I usually give the subs latitude in how they do the job as long as in the end I get what I want. So, the biggest issue is always communication - better in advance than later in the heat of a moment. If you told the plumber what you wanted and then he did not do the job properly, well, he gets a chance to do it over - see how nice a guy I am? Then there is the handling of delays, or the threat of delays. If something is really important to you, then find a way to get the job corrected - you will be living with this for a long time and a few days delay may be worth it. But a three week delay for a new shower enclosure seems excessive. In today's world you should be able to replace that unit in less than a week - albeit at a cost. The main problem I have with the fix suggested is that often there may be a discoloration of the repaired area over time and the fix becomes visible again. The issue of who pays for the fix is easily resolved and my rule has always been "who knew what and when?" He who knew, pays. Many times I paid - so the next job was done better!

Regarding your laundry pan. First, the drain should not be connected to the house plumbing because there is no way to keep a trap filled with water. Sewer gas can seep back into the house when the trap dries out (actually, there is a way, but it involves more cost and trouble than it is worth, in my opinion.) So the plumber's suggestion is valid, either leading to a sump pump or something similar. And as Jim suggested, your local code may require some sort of drain under the washer. It's not a bad idea but I have always wondered about the wisdom of the shallow metal pans many folks use under water heaters and washing machines just to meet code - so little water will be contained that it is ultimately a worthless effort unless there is a drain in the pan (which also may be code) and keeping the thing clean is difficult. You can put a drain in the floor in several ways. If the floor is to be tiled, it is easy to slope the mortar, even thin-set, toward the drain and that is my preferred way of doing it. Or you can site-build a fiberglass pan to your exact dimensions quite easily and just have a little lip over which the appliance must be moved for installation or service. If you are covering the floor with vinyl you will be putting down one more layer of sub-floor - just install the drain so it will be level with the the final floor finish and let it go at that - in the event of a failure it will be a lot better than nothing.

Two other things, get the better hoses as suggested - they probably won't break - and install a single lever shut off on the supply lines and get into the habit of keeping the water shut off until the laundry is used - my wife has made this a habit for years - and it was her idea. But if you want to do that, be sure the plumber knows because the rough-in is a little different.

Hope all continues to go well - can't wait for issue #26B.

Ray

Art Mulder
02-26-2006, 12:49 PM
I was always told that you only needed to know three things to be a plumber, ...

Cecil, don't forget: "Hot is on the left".


Customer is always right even if he is wrong he is always right.

The way I have heard this, is "NO, the customer is not always right... However, the customer is always the customer." It's a bit more subtle, and makes you think.

Karl, sorry to hear about your issues. I don't have one myself, but I was also going to suggest you look at the single-lever cutoff. Ray beat me too it. I saw them in a magazine a few years ago and they look like a great idea.

And I got a little lost in your explanation as to who was told what... but it seems to me that if you said "X", and they did "Y", then they're responsible for fixing it. Your house, and you're going to be the one living with it day in and day out. Hope things look better on Monday.

best,
...art

Fred Voorhees
02-26-2006, 12:54 PM
Boy Karl, can I sympathize with you! I have had my runarounds with things such as this when I have done home improvements. There isn't much that tops them in the frustration area. Hang in there.

Karl Laustrup
02-26-2006, 3:09 PM
Well, first let me say that I have changed the number of the update to 27. Thanks Ray. It doesn't seem like a big thing until you think about a few years from now when someone might be looking and get confused about the numbering.

As I mentioned the way he did it in the shower enclosure is really going to be preferable to the way I thought it should be. Plus, we'll save about $350, leaving it the way it is, which is the cost of the shower bar.

Each of the other subs has come to me before they started and asked about certain things pertaining to their own jobs. Not the plumber. I even asked for a meeting, before the old house was torn down, to go over what was going to be done and where certain things, like hot water heater and pressure tank for our well, would be placed. Didn't even come over and say "Hi, were the plumbers, any special things we should know before we start", when they arrived to do the rough in. HVAC and electrician have been checking with me and asking. What I want can't always be done, but they explain why if it can't or that it'll cost more if it's not in the bid. Not the plumbers.

They'll get another chance. If there are any more incidents I'm going to request they be pulled off the job. I certainly don't want to have to deal with them after the house is complete for any problems that may occur.

A pan under the washer is not required and I'm not going to mess with one. I'm going to change the hoses before the washer gets put in and I will look for those hoses at HD Jim O'. Thanks for that heads up.

I have calmed down since Friday, even since yesterday. I probably should be thanking the plumber for doing the shower enclosure the way he did, cause the way I wanted it would have been goofy and then I would have been mad. :mad: Except I would have no one to blame but me. :o Again, I must say I think someone was looking out for me the other day as every thing is better the way it is now.

I will apologize to the plumber, because I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong, but he's still gonna know his way of doing things doesn't sit well with me. God knows I've had enough practice at being wrong. :o ;) :) And as I said above I'll save a few bucks as well.

Again, thanks all for your input. Next update will be # 28. At least I hope it will. :D

Karl

John Miliunas
02-26-2006, 4:41 PM
Karl, I'm still a bit confused. Like I said earlier on, a shower for your new shop I understand but, all this fuss over handicap rails and such...:confused: Heck, I don't even have running water in my shop, much less worrying about grab bars in the shower! :rolleyes: 'Course, OTOH, after this morning, grab bars might be a good idea! :o Don't worry my friend...It'll all come together! I just hope they get their act together before they start on the house! :D :cool:

Karl Laustrup
02-26-2006, 8:54 PM
Karl, I'm still a bit confused. Like I said earlier on, a shower for your new shop I understand but, all this fuss over handicap rails and such...:confused: Heck, I don't even have running water in my shop, much less worrying about grab bars in the shower! :rolleyes: 'Course, OTOH, after this morning, grab bars might be a good idea! :o Don't worry my friend...It'll all come together! I just hope they get their act together before they start on the house! :D :cool:

Yeah, I figured I'd rather have them practice on the shop. That way they'll get the house right. ;) :D

You never know, I may need all things handicapped by the time this is done. I'm really glad I'm having that whirlpool tub installed though. I think that's going to really be nice to soak in when I take my break from goofing off. :D

Karl

John Miliunas
02-27-2006, 8:09 AM
Yeah, I figured I'd rather have them practice on the shop. That way they'll get the house right. ;) :D

Karl

Well, that's a good thing, 'cuz especially for the plumbing, it'll be real important when they get to the house!!! :D (I'd still love to have plumbing in my shop, though!) :) Hang in there, my friend! It'll work out. :) :cool:

Eddie Watkins
02-27-2006, 1:59 PM
Karl,
Like Frank et al, I hate plumbing! When I got out of high school my first job was as a plumber's helper. It encouraged me to go to college:D . The tankless water heater sounds interesting, can you tell me a little about what kind you have, how big , etc. I have a water that the pilot light blows out any time the wind gets above 20mph out ot the North and I had thought about replacing it with a tankless WH due to the non-gas pilot. I'm not trying to steal your post because I sure enjoy them, keep them coming. You just hit on something that I'd been checking into.
Eddie

Jerry Olexa
02-27-2006, 3:58 PM
Karl; Sorry to hear of the roadblock you encountered. Most of your work till now has gone quickly and smoothly. Its esp bad when you have a worker with a poor attitude. He's forgetting: you Hired him. He's working for $ for You.. Anyway, It'll all work out. Keep calm and keep the faith, my friend. Anyway, the shop is looking good. As Spring says, When are u starting on the house??:confused: :) :D