My Timings for Cutting/Routing Sheet Goods with a Guided Tool System

[Frank Pellow]

There have been a few discussions about the merits of cutting sheet goods with a Guided Circular Saw System (GCSS) vs a table saw equipped with a sliding table. I thought that speed and the results would be similar but had no figures to back me up.

Last November in the thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=25535, Charlie Plesums stated that he cut 21 pieces in 20 minutes from two sheets of 4' x 8' plywood on his MiniMax combo machine. Furthermore, his cuts were dead on accurate. That’s an average time of 57 seconds per piece.

Today, I had to make 36 pieces from four sheets 18 milimetre Baltic birch (5' by 5' size), so I decided to time the process.

Here is a breakdown of the steps and the time taken for each (rounded up to the nearest 5 seconds):

1) Retrieve and set up the saw horses and cutting panel: 4:30

2) Retrieve and joint up two Festool guide rail so that I could do cuts longer than 140 centimetres: 0:50

3) Bring each of 4 plywood sheets into the shop and position them on the cutting panel: 0:40 per sheet.

4) Rip the sheets into 5 (or 6) 30 centimetre wide strips. In order to eliminate the factory edges this required either 6 or 7 cuts per sheet: 3:15 for three sheets and 3:35 for one sheet.

5) Tear down the saw horses and cutting panel and put them away, then set up the Festool Multi-function table: 3:20

6) Using the Festool Multi function table, cross-cut the results of step 4 into two pieces (3 cuts) for each of 4 sections and into three pieces (4 cuts) for each of 16 sections: 1:05 for 4 sections and 1:25 for 16 sections.

Total time taken: 49 minutes

This works out to an average of 82 seconds per piece, so I lose to Charlie. :( By the way, the pieces that I cut were "perfect", just like the ones Charlie cut. :)

If you don't count the time it took to set up and tear down my equipment, I averaged 67 seconds per piece -but this is still not as good as the 57 seconds achieved by Charlie.

Here are photos of some tasks:

1 The set up of the cutting panel upon the saw horses

32675

4) Ripping a section

32676

6) Cross cutting a piece on the Festool MFT

32677

-) 36 "perfect" pieces of plywood

32678


Routing: In post #11 in this thread, I added timings for the task of routing rabbets and dados.

[Burt Waddell]

Frank,

I find that information very interesting. How did the size of the final pieces cut by you and Charlie compare? I wonder how that would compare with some of the other saw systems - both guided systems and table saws with slider attachments.

Burt

[Frank Pellow]

...
How did the size of the final pieces cut by you and Charlie compare?
...
Burt
Charlie didn't say but, assuming that he had little waste, then his pieces averaged about 3 square feet each. Mine averaged 2.7 square feet each. So, we are close.

[Burt Waddell]

Frank,

Could you please post your cut list. Dino will be at Hartville tool tomorrow and would like a challenge. If he can't cut that time by 50%, he will walk home.

Burt

[Charlie Plesums]

Very impressive performance, Frank.

I certainly wouldn't include setup time in your "race." My machine was all set up (I had been using it for other similar cuts), with the scoring blade up, and everything ready. I wasn't racing for performance - just cutting a bunch of shelves and similar pieces, when I was building the "library" you can see on my web site. I just happened to notice the time when I started, and was pleasantly surprised at the time when I was done (especially surprised since since the machine was new, and I was new to this type of equipment).

Someone else challenged the time...said he could go faster with the Festool system. I expect that he was faster for the first few cuts, but he said I was faster for the larger number of cuts.

Bottom line, both are great woodworking tools. If this is a race, I am glad to call it a tie. I am happy with my decision and equipment, and am glad that you are happy with yours.

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks Charlie.

From a practical point of view, I think that set-up should count because your saw is always available, whereas my saw horses are usually knocked down, my cutting platform is on the deck outside the shop under a tarp, and my guide rails are kept apart in a box. So it really does take me extra time over you every time that I want to cut sheet goods.

I also was not racing. I kept good track of the time, but I worked at my regualr pace.

[Frank Pellow]

Frank,

Could you please post your cut list. Dino will be at Hartville tool tomorrow and would like a challenge. If he can't cut that time by 50%, he will walk home.

Burt
Cut from four sheets of 18 milimetre Baltic birch. Each sheet measuring 5 feet sqaure.

Sheets 1 and 2:

qty: 5 width 30 cm length: 76 cm

qty: 5 width 30 cm length: 74 cm

Sheet 3:

qty: 2 width 30 cm length: 76 cm

qty: 8 width 30 cm length: 74 cm

Sheet 4:

qty: 4 width 30 cm length: 115 cm

qty: 2 width 30 cm length: 74 cm

[Allen Grimes]

Frank,

Very interesting comparison. I too think that set up time should count since it is something that you will always do.

Honestly, based on your results, I think that if you are doing a lot of production work, than the slider would be well worth the purchase, but if you only do small projects, then the guided circ saw, is the way to go.

Then again, if you are doing a lot of production I would say that the best way to go would be with a CNC machine. But I dont know anything about production anyway so who am I to say.

Either way, it is nice to see a comparison like this.

Thanks Frank.

[Bill Fields]

Frank--good job--interesting--we need more info like this

My experience w/ the EZ system is very positive--made a few cabinets recently w/ the EZ system and it was quick, precise--and only used the TS for some dadoes.

In fact, since I am space limited, the TS may go the way of my RAS and have a custom cover made and go OUTSIDE. Probably not, because I use the TS for a bunch of stuff that is not panel-making.

Thanks for you analytical approach--

Best

BILL

[Rob Blaustein]

Thanks Frank. Did I understand your process correctly--you don't do any of the crosscuts on the saw horse table (just finished building mine and I love them). I have just started using that same setup for sheet goods, and the size of my shop and availability of extra supports dictates that I have to at least do one or two "rough" crosscuts on the sawhorses in my garage. Crosscutting an 8 ft piece is to unwieldy inside.

[Frank Pellow]

This morning, I cut several rabbets and dados into many of the Baltic birch pieces that I cut yesterday. I use my Guided Tool System (GTS) to guide my router as well as my circular saw.

Since I recorded some timings for the sawing GTS task, I thought that I would also record some for the routing task.

Here is a picture of the router cutting a dado.

32712

The timings are as follows:

1) Set up the router with a 18mm straight bit and perform 3 test cuts: 3:15

2) Measure then pencil in alignment marks on the Multifunction Table: 2:20

3) Cut rabbets only in both ends of 4 pieces: 1:40 average per piece

4) Cut 2 rabbets and 1 dado into 8 pieces: 2:15 average per piece

5) Cut 2 rabbets and 2 dados into 4 pieces: 2:35 average per piece

The total time was 40 minutes and 35 seconds to cut 48 rabbets/dados. This works out to an average of 51 seconds per rabbet/dado.

Note that, as with the sawing task, I worked at my normal pace and did not rush anything.

[Christian Aufreiter]

Hi Frank,

thanks for this interesting post.
Wouldn't it have been even easier to rout the dados before cutting the Birch ply into pieces?

Regards,

Christian

[Rob Blaustein]

Frank,
Interesting post, once again. I notice you use that clamp to apply pressure keeping the piece against the fence, and I see from your initial post that you also do that for regular cross cuts. Have you found that it is more accurate than applying pressure by hand (for crosscuts at least, where you have a hand free)?

Although off the topic of the thread, I notice an interesting difference between the ATF55 and my TS55. Your plug points straight back, the newer one angles out to the left, when looking at the saw from behind. I find that unless I'm careful, the plug ends up riding along that leftmost channel on gthe rail and is prone to being cut by the sharp ends of the rail.
-Rob

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks Frank. Did I understand your process correctly--you don't do any of the crosscuts on the saw horse table (just finished building mine and I love them). I have just started using that same setup for sheet goods, and the size of my shop and availability of extra supports dictates that I have to at least do one or two "rough" crosscuts on the sawhorses in my garage. Crosscutting an 8 ft piece is to unwieldy inside.
Rob, you understood correctly. In this project, none of the cross cuts were done on the saw horse table.

Sometimes I do make crosscuts on the saw horse table, but I prefer using the MFT (with the clamps). The way that my table is set up, the widest crosscut (or dado) that I can cut on it is 48 centimetres.

[Frank Pellow]

Hi Frank,

thanks for this interesting post.
Wouldn't it have been even easier to rout the dados before cutting the Birch ply into pieces?

Regards,

Christian
Perhaps it would have been. But, I prefer to cut dados on the Multifuntion Table tahn just on the unsupported guide rail. I have cut wide dados a couple of times with a clamped guide rail and it worked OK but I felt akward doing so. I expect that , if I cut such dados a number of times, I would get used to it. But, it is easy and accurate to cut them on the mFT, so that waht I do. Another consideration is that it is easier for me to get repeatability on the MFT.

[Frank Pellow]

Frank,
Interesting post, once again. I notice you use that clamp to apply pressure keeping the piece against the fence, and I see from your initial post that you also do that for regular cross cuts. Have you found that it is more accurate than applying pressure by hand (for crosscuts at least, where you have a hand free)?

Yes, I find it to be easier and more accurate to cut both dados and crosscuts on the MFT.

It is also easier to get repeatability on the MFT. I do this simply by marking an aligment line with a pencil on the MFT.



Although off the topic of the thread, I notice an interesting difference between the ATF55 and my TS55. Your plug points straight back, the newer one angles out to the left, when looking at the saw from behind. I find that unless I'm careful, the plug ends up riding along that leftmost channel on gthe rail and is prone to being cut by the sharp ends of the rail.
-Rob
Thanks, maybe I should not "upgrade" to the TS55. It's going to be some time before I can justify such an upgrade anyway.

[Don Bergren]

Really good post Frank. It appears that you weren't quite as fast as Charlie, but considering that you were using a guided circular saw system against a MiniMax your numbers really tell us a lot. I bet they surprise more than a few people. I would love to see the same kind of comparison using identical cut lists with a GCSS against the average home shop cabinet saw setup. I would bet the numbers would be much different, and by that I mean that they would be more in your favor.

I'm with Christian in thinking that routing the dados before cutting would be even more efficient. I think your test is one more positive example of what a guided circular saw system can do versus the bigger saws. I think the GCSS approach is going to be a big part of the future once we train our brains to realize how beneficial they really are. I own the E system and I am a real convert to the accuracy, ease, convenience, safety, and other benefits the GCSS brings to woodworking.

[John Lucas]

Outstanding thread Frank, both from standpoint of your practical findings and the responses. When you have accurate results like yours, the time becomes second in importance. It is good to note, though, that the timing was well within practical specs. A system that gives accuracy and speed is great, and while you didnt mention it, I assume that the quality of the cuts in baltic birch is as close to perfect as you can get and probably compares postively to large TS cuts. You know the saying "accuracy/speed/quality ... pick any two!" That has always been light hearted but in this case, I think you have 3 for 3. Not bad.

PS - I am sorry that Dino has to look at this as a challenge. That's pretty pathetic.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Very neat thread, and Frank, very well done and documented.

For sure there are a few things to add that you are not including in your equation.

The size of the large sliding table cabinet saw, I could not get one in my Dungeon or have the space to use it, so right there, if this was a timed race, it would lose ;) :D

Second is the price, the Festool system, or any good guided system, is dirt cheap compared to the large saw Charlie has.

You are using the MFT to do your cross cuts, I would not do this, mainly because I don't HAVE a MFT....... :rolleyes: but I think for the basic cuts, that you are doing, I'd not bother, but that is me.

Great thread, thanks for the info!

Cheers!

[tod evans]

i think frank has done a fine job of documenting both the speed and accuracy of his guided saw system. and i think these type of systems have a place in some shops and for installation crews. but comparing a guided skillsaw to a panel saw is totally ridiculous! and "racing" is even more so..don`t you guys think industry would have addopted this technology years ago if it where a viable alternative to costly production equipment?
now for the small shop or hobbiest who cuts a few sheets per week i`m sure these systems are a godsend. but comparing them with a slider is like comparing apples to tequila, not oranges......02 tod

[Steve Clardy]

i think frank has done a fine job of documenting both the speed and accuracy of his guided saw system. and i think these type of systems have a place in some shops and for installation crews. but comparing a guided skillsaw to a panel saw is totally ridiculous! and "racing" is even more so..don`t you guys think industry would have addopted this technology years ago if it where a viable alternitive to costly production equipment?
now for the small shop or hobbiest who cuts a few sheets per week i`m sure these systems are a godsend. but comparing them with a slider is like comparing apples to tequila, not oranges......02 tod

My thoughts follow yours also Tod.:)
Also don't understand the speed, racing thing:confused:
Guided Circular saw, table saw, panel saw, are all still cutting tools that need to be respected. I don't speed cut anything.:) ;)

Be trying to refrain from jumping in here. ;)

[Frank Pellow]

Outstanding thread Frank, both from standpoint of your practical findings and the responses. When you have accurate results like yours, the time becomes second in importance. It is good to note, though, that the timing was well within practical specs. A system that gives accuracy and speed is great, and while you didnt mention it, I assume that the quality of the cuts in baltic birch is as close to perfect as you can get and probably compares postively to large TS cuts. You know the saying "accuracy/speed/quality ... pick any two!" That has always been light hearted but in this case, I think you have 3 for 3. Not bad.

PS - I am sorry that Dino has to look at this as a challenge. That's pretty pathetic.
Thanks John.

Actually, I did say that the cuts were "perfect". Yesterday evening and this morning, I assembled 6 of the 8 cabinets that the wood was destined for and there were no misscuts at all. :)

I don't really consider this to be a race, and when working, I did not work as if I was in a race. Charlie simply observed the time it took him so he was working at his normal pace as well. I wanted to know how close a Guided Tool Sytem performs when compared to a big combo machine and slider and it appears that is does come at least within the same ballpark. I am sure that Dino can better the times I posted and maybe even better Charlie's times but that does not really matter very much to me.

The other thing that knowing the average times for these tasks performed according to my methods does, is to help me to better plan and estimate my work.

[Frank Pellow]

i think frank has done a fine job of documenting both the speed and accuracy of his guided saw system. and i think these type of systems have a place in some shops and for installation crews. but comparing a guided skillsaw to a panel saw is totally ridiculous! and "racing" is even more so..don`t you guys think industry would have addopted this technology years ago if it where a viable alternitive to costly production equipment?
now for the small shop or hobbiest who cuts a few sheets per week i`m sure these systems are a godsend. but comparing them with a slider is like comparing apples to tequila, not oranges......02 tod
Tod, for me the comparison is not totally ridiculous. I was considering buying a panel saw and, instead, opted for a Guided Tool System. I am happy that I did.

I agree that racing is ridiculous and that is not really what I was doing. If I had been racing, I would have taken lots of shortcuts.

[tod evans]

Tod, for me the comparison is not totally ridiculous. I was considering buying a panel saw and, instead, opted for a Guided Tool System. I am happy that I did.

.

frank, "now for the small shop or hobbiest who cuts a few sheets per week i`m sure these systems are a godsend."
please correct me if i`m wrong but doesn`t this discription fit your usage?

my statements where made because it`s very dificult for me to envision a person prosessing a unit or two of sheetgoods per week, week in and week out with one of these systems which is what the slider is designed to do. i`m only aware of one skillsaw that will withstand the riggors of continuous use and it`s an oil-bath design. has anybody on this forum used one of these systems for 8hrs a day for one week? how about for a year? i wasn`t discounting this type of system in the right enviornment only saying that they shouldn`t be compared to production equipment. they`re two different animals and each belongs in their respective enviornment. from the sounds of it you have the perfect tool for your use..02 tod

[Allen Grimes]

PS - I am sorry that Dino has to look at this as a challenge. That's pretty pathetic.Wow, thats pretty insulting, John. Dino hasn't even said anything in this thread, so why would you even assume that he is looking at this as a challenge.

Even if he did test his system against the other 2 it would be no different than what Frank did and you praised Frank, so why insult Dino?

EDIT: I have no affiliation with Dino or his tools, I dont even know the guy, I just thought what you said was wrong.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

(snip) is like comparing apples to tequila, not oranges......02 tod

You mean like comparing a Hobbyist to a Production Shop....or comparing the price of a slider to a guided circular saw system.... or comparing the space needed for a slider compared to a..........yep, apples to Tequila for sure ;) :D

[tod evans]

You mean like comparing a Hobbyist to a Production Shop....or comparing the price of a slider to a guided circular saw system.... or comparing the space needed for a slider compared to a..........yep, apples to Tequila for sure ;) :D


gimmie a shot! you got it stu. :) .02 tod

[John Lucas]

[QUOTE=Allen Grimes]Wow, thats pretty insulting, John. Dino hasn't even said anything in this thread, so why would you even assume that he is looking at this as a challenge.
QUOTE]

Allen, I agree it would be insulting if that were the case. Here is how I happened to mention it. In an earlier post:

02-25-2006, 2:27 AM
Burt Waddell
Member Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sumter, SC
Posts: 77

Frank,

Could you please post your cut list. Dino will be at Hartville tool tomorrow and would like a challenge. If he can't cut that time by 50%, he will walk home.

Burt

It seems to me to be a Dino mention of a challenge.

[Allen Grimes]

It seems to me to be a Dino mention of a challenge.John,

I've read your website on numerous occasions and I respect you and what you do, so please dont take this the wrong way.

Dino himself did not come and to this thread and make a challenge somebody else did, but even if he did, that doesnt give you the right to call him pathetic, or say that it is pathetic for him to look at it as a challenge. I mean, you do have the right to say whatever you want, but just because you have that right, doesnt make it right.

Like I said before, I dont even know Dino, so as far as this goes I am done, I just felt that it was wrong of you to say what you said, the way you said it. It was never about defending Dino, really, I just said what I felt was right.

I've always respected you from the first time I saw your website. I found it very informative and I like seeing the projects you do. I would never disrespect you in anyway, and I would hope that you would be the same way with me as well as everyone else.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Great, "Interpretation" rears it's ugly head. :D:D

Allen, I too took Burt's post as Dino taking up a challenge where one did not exist, this could very well be incorrect, but Dino has not stopped by to say so.....

If you were to look up "Pathetic" and find it's meaning........


Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French pathetique, from Late Latin patheticus, from Greek pathEtikos capable of feeling, pathetic, from paschein (aorist pathein) to experience, suffer -- more at PATHOS (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/pathos)
1 : having a capacity to move one to compassionate pity
2 : marked by sorrow or melancholy : SAD (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/sad)
....then you would know that John is not directly insulting Dino by saying what he said.........



PS - I am sorry that Dino has to look at this as a challenge. That's pretty pathetic. (Not to put words in Mr. Lucas's mouth, because I know that John is more than qualified to defend his own actions)

........in my interpretation, John is just saying that it is very sad that Dino has to look at this as a challenge, when one was not issued. (if in fact Dino does look on this as a challenge, which one could interpret from Burt's post)

Words mean things, and here on the internet, in a forum such as this, misinterpretations are common, so it is very important that we strive to be as clear as possible in what we say (write).

I think that John's use of the word "Pathetic" is just about perfect, no surprise there, but the interpretation of this word is often not perfect, as it has, over time, developed a meaning that is not actually true, and derogatory.

Allen, if I may make an observation, I find it interesting that you express so much respect for Mr. Lucas, but you quickly took the worst possible meaning of something he said, just an observation.

Now I'll go off the wagon and say something that I believe needs to be said, why is it that almost anytime there is any mention of anything "Festool" in a post, there is usually some kind of "EZ" response, even if the "EZ" system (which I happen to think is very cool) is not mentioned or related to the thread?

A little FYI for "EZ" system owners, and supporters, this makes the lot of you look a little over anxious, in the frame of mind of the old saying "The lady doth protest too much - methinks" -William Shakespeare

Not meant as an insult, or a flame or anything bad, just an observation, from someone on the outside looking in.

Now anyone would like to take this post as an insult, well feel free to, I have no control over that, it was not meant to be an insult or a flame, I have not written it in that manner, nor do I intend for it to be taken in that manner, I'm just making some observations here.


Have a nice day! :D

[John Lucas]

Allen,
Thanks for the kind words about my website. I try. As to "pathetic" I meant it in a non-defaming way...and certainly not to Dino as a person. I dont know him butI respect him for what he does and has created. My pique is really with the constant need for comparison to Festool.
I wont go on, because Stu has stated my position way better than I could, and I think he is more impartial.
In any case, no offense meant.

[Allen Grimes]

Wow, luckily I am up late tonight and can clear things up before this goes any further.

To John, I appologize if I misunderstood you, but I never knew the word pathetic to be anything but bad, so I guess thats why I looked at it as an insult.

Stu and John,

I understand where you are coming from, on the EZ vs Festool subject. Everybody wants to have the best tools so they always have to make the ones they own look better. I personally know nothing about EZ Smart and, John, the reason I started looking at your site in the first place was because of the Festool demos.

Honestly though, this EZ vs Festool topic is not a discussion I ever want to get involved with. I'm not a fan of arguing, even though it may seem so sometimes. I just come here to learn and hopefully someday I will be able to help somebody out too.

I do have one last observation of my own, this whole thread was started to see how Festool stacks up against a slider, so I dont think it is wrong for an EZ system owner to want to see how their system stacks up.

That's all I have to say on the subject. Sorry if I misunderstood, but I only did what I thought was right. Goodnight

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Hey Allen, I'm very happy that you took my observations in the manner in which they were intended, thanks for that.

You have a good night as well, I hope there are a few "Negra Modelos" in your future :D:D

Cheers!

[Frank Pellow]

Wow, luckily I am up late tonight and can clear things up before this goes any further.

To John, I appologize if I misunderstood you, but I never knew the word pathetic to be anything but bad, so I guess thats why I looked at it as an insult.

Stu and John,

I understand where you are coming from, on the EZ vs Festool subject. Everybody wants to have the best tools so they always have to make the ones they own look better. I personally know nothing about EZ Smart and, John, the reason I started looking at your site in the first place was because of the Festool demos.

Honestly though, this EZ vs Festool topic is not a discussion I ever want to get involved with. I'm not a fan of arguing, even though it may seem so sometimes. I just come here to learn and hopefully someday I will be able to help somebody out too.

I do have one last observation of my own, this whole thread was started to see how Festool stacks up against a slider, so I dont think it is wrong for an EZ system owner to want to see how their system stacks up.

That's all I have to say on the subject. Sorry if I misunderstood, but I only did what I thought was right. Goodnight
This whole thread was started to see how a Guided Tool System (GTS) stacks up against a slider. I happen to have a Festool system, so that is what I used, but I would expect similar results with an EZ system. I really don't care about exact results, I am just happy to know that the results using an GTS are in the same approximate range as those using a European combo machine equipped with a sliding table.

As with any experiments, multilpe tests are good. So I would welcome any results for similar tasks reported by other.

[Frank Pellow]

frank, "now for the small shop or hobbiest who cuts a few sheets per week i`m sure these systems are a godsend."
please correct me if i`m wrong but doesn`t this discription fit your usage?

my statements where made because it`s very dificult for me to envision a person prosessing a unit or two of sheetgoods per week, week in and week out with one of these systems which is what the slider is designed to do. i`m only aware of one skillsaw that will withstand the riggors of continuous use and it`s an oil-bath design. has anybody on this forum used one of these systems for 8hrs a day for one week? how about for a year? i wasn`t discounting this type of system in the right enviornment only saying that they shouldn`t be compared to production equipment. they`re two different animals and each belongs in their respective enviornment. from the sounds of it you have the perfect tool for your use..02 tod
Yes Tod, I have a small shop and I am a hobbiest who cuts a few sheets per week (and not every week at that).

But, I do believe that my system could stand up the heavier use (say an average of 4 hours a day). There have been a few days in the two years that I have owned it when I used my Festool circular saw for 6 to 8 hours and it did not appear to get too hot. I think that all I would need is a set of sharpened blades on hand.

[Kevin Halliburton]

"don`t you guys think industry would have addopted this technology years ago if it where a viable alternative to costly production equipment?"

Guide systems, with capabilities beyond simple shooting boards, are still in their infancy. CNC level monster saws, for huge production runs, are here to stay but the industry has changed the way it does things more than once. Guide systems are getting better all the time. Who knows what the future holds for certain, but I'll wager that guide system saws, for high production, non-CNC sized shops, will be a major part of it. I wouldn't even be surprised to see guide systems, fully automated, and ripping their way through stacks of sheet goods every day within the next five years.

The guides are getting better - The saws are coming along. No doubt the saws can get better, and they will, but ask a post war California framer if a circular saw can handle day in and day out production cutting in a rough environment. There were cut men on some of those framing crews that only set their circular saws down for lunch. Yea - circular saws can hang, and with a solid guide system, they can hang with remarkable accuracy.

Right now, there are a few heavy hitting circular saws on the market that adapt well to a guide system, but I'll further wager there will be an induction motor guided saw system, that will make those saws look weak, in the very near future.

The industry is ripe for change - five years can see a total revolution. I'm just thankful that in these apples to whatever comparisons, there are a few quirky individuals who see a little more potential in their apples than the rest of us. As this thread illustrates - the results can be surprising.

Can you believe what these guide systems are cabable of today? Just imagine what the future holds...

[tod evans]

kevin, i could very well be all wet here and please correct me if i`m wrong, but aren`t vertical panel saws,sliders and beam saws guided systems with induction motors? .02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

Boy does this topic always get interesting results. I think everyone knows my feelings on the subject so I will not say anything more in those regards. Truth is each tool has its place and its use. Some tools excell at specific tasks while others can perform many other ones also and equally well.<O:p
<O:p
The term "slider" tends to get misused a bit in the sense that the type of slider should be more specific. I am not being picky here but there are major inherent differences here. Here are the types of "sliders" I am aware of: 1) Format slider - newer ones are alum sliding carriage and table varying in sizes from 4'-0' up to 12'-0"?? (all of these sliders have the sliding table right next to the blade), 2) cast iron or other material sliding tables - kind of like a crosscut sled but to the left side of the blade and at the same level to the main table (there is a distance between the sliding table and the blade), 3) the aluminum/tube steel sliders like the Exaktor or Excaliber - which are similar to the above cast iron sliders but they can be a bit bigger to handle larger sheets in crosscutting abilities (but once again there is a distance between the sliding table and the blade), 4) then of course there are some of the old style cast iron top sliders like the Tannewitz & Oliver..... which are called a hardwood slider but are much shorter than the others in size and travel (these are right next to the blade)
<O:p
I think that covers the "sliders" but note the next to the blade and distance to the blade .....that is a big difference. Also note that only the Format slider allows the table length and travel distance to "rip" and crosscut stock up to 12'-0" long, wide....or whatever. <O:p
<O:p
As far as use goes that is both a concrete and subjective notion. There are many environments for use: job site, small pro shop, large pro shop, production environment, small hobbyist shop and large hobbyist shop and I am sure we could all add more. Some people will say, “Time is of the essence” others will say, “I want to do this only once”. Then of course you add in the $$ thing and that can be as varied as the site for use itself. So as we can see we will all have different views. I will even add one more thing to that…..someone whom has used both a guided saw system, a slider of some type, a vertical saw, a beam saw, a CNC router….. and once again you will get a different view. I almost forgot to mention what you will be cutting… solid stock, sheetgoods, both or even if it is even a wood product or not!

Now I have had the pleasure of using both an EFSTS and a GCSS and they both have their limitations and strengths. For me, the GCSS was about portability and job site use. I have actually sold my GCSS off because I no longer need those aspects any more. The only thing I feel I have lost is the ability to do that “one quick cut” otherwise my EFSTS does what I need it to and more, once again in my situation. IF I were ever to expand my sheetgood production a mass production needs I would not even thing twice about getting a CNC router. If I went in super high production I most likely would add a beam saw, some type of transport system and a full automated shop…. a very different scenario.

Bottom line is not one of these systems will replace the other as they each have their place and need. What we now have is an abundance of choices for many given scenarios. <O:p

[russ bransford]

Tod, You're not wet, you're right. In the factory you lay the panel on the cnc router or point to point, turn it on, then pick up the pieces. It's all guided on rails or slides. The work piece stays still, the cutting tool moves. Same for metal.

The guides for cicular saws have introduced this speed, accuracy and safety to the jobsite and small shop. Change is hard.

As for the 'race' against time, it's called production. Reduce the time it takes to make a product. The challenge is there for those who don't think it's possible. Many inventions go through the same scenario.

As for 'pathetic', I think some attitudes are pathetic, but the change coming about with guided saws is more 'prophetic'.

Russ

[Kevin Halliburton]

Well yea... see, I told you it was coming sooner than you think! :D

Actually, I was slicing my apples at a little different angle but you do make a good point - industry has already adopted stationary guided saw systems in a big way. We've finally reached the point where those systems are truly mobile, far more versatile and every bit as accurate - I believe those advances, coupled with affordability, and improvements in the mobile versions of the saws, will radically change the industry in the next five years.

You can mark my words, or have your dog do it, but guide systems are going head to head with some of the big boy saws already. It won't be long before some of those saws start to give way to the superior performance of the far more affordable and productive guide system tools that are just over the next horizon.

[Allen Grimes]

This whole thread was started to see how a Guided Tool System (GTS) stacks up against a slider. I happen to have a Festool system, so that is what I used, but I would expect similar results with an EZ system. I really don't care about exact results, I am just happy to know that the results using an GTS are in the same approximate range as those using a European combo machine equipped with a sliding table.

As with any experiments, multilpe tests are good. So I would welcome any results for similar tasks reported by other.Frank,

I know that this thread wasn't about Festool, but guided saws in general, but the fact is you did use a Festool, so it is only natural for an EZ Smart owner to want to see how their guided saw system stacks up, if that is important to them.

I actually thought that this thread was very interesting. I really like the Festool GTS in general, but it is definately not something that I could see myself using on a large production scale.

To Stu,

There will definately be a few Negra Modelos in my future.

To Kevin,

Im sure if somebody ever did make a GCS system like you are talking about, it wouldnt be as affordable" as you think. Tool businesses are out to make money, not to make things "affordable". But good luck

[tod evans]

Well yea... see, I told you it was coming sooner than you think! :D

Actually, I was slicing my apples at a little different angle but you do make a good point - industry has already adopted stationary guided saw systems in a big way. We've finally reached the point where those systems are truly mobile, far more versatile and every bit as accurate - I believe those advances, coupled with affordability, and improvements in the mobile versions of the saws, will radically change the industry in the next five years.

You can mark my words, or have your dog do it, but guide systems are going head to head with some of the big boy saws already. It won't be long before some of those saws start to give way to the superior performance of the far more affordable and productive guide system tools that are just over the next horizon.

kevin, i think you hit on the real reason most folks find this type of system so attractive, cost.
.02 tod

[Andrew Shaber]

I didn't read the whole thread so others may have said this too. I don't like the idea of racing with cutting. Fingers come off in about .2sec each and I'm rather attached to mine.

That said, it is still interesting to compare productivity and I wondered how the festool stuff was for time.

[Frank Pellow]

I didn't read the whole thread so others may have said this too. I don't like the idea of racing with cutting. Fingers come off in about .2sec each and I'm rather attached to mine.

That said, it is still interesting to compare productivity and I wondered how the festool stuff was for time.
Right you are Andrew. I wasn't racing. Nor was Charlie.

[Kevin Halliburton]

Affordable is a relative term. I don't think it will be as pricey as you imagine, but "affordable" could be pretty darn expensive relative to currently available options. At any rate, it's not a matter of if but when...

Could you envision a serious comparison of cut times between a guided saw system and a Minimax even five years ago? Well, here we are... Once enough people start seeing beyond the glorified shooting board potential of these systems, and they get beyond the shortsightedness of the shooting board manufacturer debates to the actual concepts being promoted, it's going to get real interesting in a hurry.

It hasn't been all that long ago that Mr. Biessemyer was trying to convince the world that table saws needed a fence. Now there are jigs and fixtures for just about anything you want to attempt on a table saw. Heck, it wasn't all that long ago that there was no such thing as a table saw at all - certainly not an "affordable" one. Guided saw systems are ripe for similar development and there are some pretty inovative minds already on it.

Not only will you see far better guide system saws pretty darn quick, but in the next five years I believe you will see an influx of jig and fixture development for the guide systems that will begin to expand their capabilities on par with the table saw phenomenon once it took off.

Of course, maybe I just got a defective crystal ball. They threw it in for free when I ordered my rose colored glasses. I like my world - lots of pretty colors... and no one is missing their fingers. ;)

I have no affiliation with any manufacturer but I do have a well accessorised guide system. It regularly bends my mind with its potential. Maybe that's why I'm starting to see things...

[Ed Kowaski]

I'm with Tod, guided saws will replace panels saws in industry shortly after pigs can fly. :)

It's generally faster to take the part to the machine then the tool to the part. Guided saws are not as accurate as panel saws and sliders are not near as accurate as CNC beam saws. Perhaps I'm missinterpreted your opinions but I think it's hopeless folly to suggest an extrusion and some clamps will ever replaced 10's or 100's of thousands of dollars of machine in industry or production work. There is also that little matter of scoring, sure they have a place but I've never seen one in a "production shop" nor do I expect to anytime soon.

As far as the timings go I believe the timings for the slider are on the high side and are not really production times. Now lets start stacking 6 high on a beam saw. :)

[tod evans]

kevin, something i foresee happening is the borgs as well as the wholesale yards will soon be offering "cut to size" panels while you wait. some pimple faced nintindo commando will push a few buttons and your cabinet parts will be waiting at the cashiers allready dadoed and pilot holed, possibly even edgebanded. will this affect the small to medium production shop? i doubt it. will it effect "joe in his garage"? heck yes! will it affect the big equipment manufacturers? yup, they`ll be outfitting the borgs-n- wholesalers..will it affect the guided system manufacturers? not if they addapt. but when "joe" can have all his panels cut for him for only a few dollars a project with no dust in his garage and no noise for his neighbors to whine about what avenue will he choose?

and my crystal ball shattered years ago but there`s just too much money lying on the table and i don`t think the likes of delta or powermatic have the ability to jump into this field...02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

Just a question for you guys.... just curious.... How many of you guys have actually used all of these systems in a real working scenario and which ones?? I have only used a GCSS and a EFSTS so I can only really comment on those two.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I must work different than Frank. In Dennis time, 4:30 is four hours and thirty minutes and I don't think I could retrieve my saw horses and set them up much faster than that.:) I think I'll probably get a "less expensive" guided system sometime in the future to break down sheets of ply to a size I can push across the table saw.

Doesn't it take more room to lay a 4'X8' sheet of ply across two saw horses than a vertical panel saw? The advantage to the GSS is I can set it up in my drive way when I need it and pack it into a small box when I don't. I think you lose that advantage if you have room for a permanently mounted panel saw don't you?

Of course, both panel saws and GSS will probably be eclipsed by CNC milling machines anyway.

[Allen Grimes]

Affordable is a relative term. I don't think it will be as pricey as you imagine, but "affordable" could be pretty darn expensive relative to currently available options. At any rate, it's not a matter of if but when...

Could you envision a serious comparison of cut times between a guided saw system and a Minimax even five years ago? Well, here we are... If we are talking about affordable in a relative sense then arent Format Sliders affordable to the people who use them in production shops?

Also, I dont see this as a serious comparison. A serious comparison to me would be to put the GCS system side by side with a Format Slider doing the exact same cuts at a safe reasonable speed and not only seeing which system cuts faster, but which system dies first.

I am relatively new to WWing, I only started in August of 2003, and for the first year I only used hand tools. My experience with power tools and machinery is very limited, but I dont think that people would be spending 10s of thousands of dollars on format sliders, if they could get "compairable" results at a production level with less than 1000.

EDIT: Frank, I want to clear this up, before you come to the conclusion that I am knocking you or your comparison.

I think that your comparison is great, but I on a hobbyist/small shop pro level. I dont think that it is relevant on a production level. And even if it was, you averages about 1.3 minutes to Charlies about 1 minute. For every 3 hours of work from him you would take 4 to do the same, and that is a big difference in my opinion.

[Thomas Walker]

Before everyone starts using the word 'pathetic' thinking it's harmless, I think it's common usage in the US is much more in line with the 2nd difinition from this dictionary. That is, it's generally taken as a 'fighting' word.

-------------------
pa·thet·ic
adj.

1. Arousing or capable of arousing sympathetic sadness and compassion: “The old, rather shabby room struck her as extraordinarily pathetic” (John Galsworthy).
2. Arousing or capable of arousing scornful pity
---------------------

[Don Baer]

I've been using a cicular saw guide for 30 years to break down sheet goods. The one I have is simlar to this one from the blue borg.

<TABLE class=grayborder cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=782 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class="tir grayleft_align" vAlign=top height=90>Swanson®
100" Cutting Guide


Item #: 119887 Model: CG100</TD></TR><TR><TD class=dot_x_1 vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class="tir grayleft_align" width=208>$18.98
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>It packs away very nice and can be used with any Circ saw or router
It doesn't require any adapters.

The I finish milling on my table saw using either my fence or sled.
:D
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Don Bergren]

I saw this as a very informative post about guided circular saw systems. As Frank said initially, there have been recent discussions about the practicality of using a GCSS for cutting sheet goods instead of a table saw equipped with a sliding table. Frank worked with numbers that were previously provided by a member who owns a MiniMax combo machine, which is not what most of us think of as a typical table saw equipped with a sliding table, but it was the gauge that Frank wanted to work with. Frank ran his comparison and posted his results. I liked the post because it showed that the GCSS, with no brand preference expressed, was a viable alternative to a table saw equipped with a sliding table. When one can get results like those in Frank's post when using a GCSS, it makes such a system a very attractive alternative for many users. Frank didn't make it a Festool only thread, or a Festool versus MiniMax thread. It was a fair objective post by someone who approached it in a fair and objective manner. I really like that type of approach.

I have read so many threads about the F and E systems that I couldn't begin to guess the number of posts that I've read. When I finally waded through all of the disagreements (all too often heated) among the enthusiasts of each system, I was actually able to see the benefits of the GCSS without getting caught up in all of the emotions. I guess the real problem we keep encountering in these threads is one of emotions and perceptions. In this thread some saw it as an attack on production machines, others saw it as an attack on Festool, some saw it as dangerous racing, and possibly there were a few MiniMax owners who saw it as a butt kicking for Festool. But when you weed all that emotion out there is some good information here.

The end result is that Frank illustrated one thing quite clearly, and there were others who concurred, and that was that a GCSS can hold its own when it comes to cutting sheet goods in the typical home shop. In his post it didn't matter if you prefer Festool or EZ Smart, the post showed that GCSS's do have a realistic place in a great many workshops. And it showed that a GCSS can accurately do the final processing of sheet goods with the same accuracy as a table saw. Many of us who use one of the systems already knew this, but Frank's post showed the many who may not own a GCSS that a GCSS is both accurate and fast while providing quality cuts.

Thanks for the great post Frank!

[Allen Grimes]

Don,

You said what I meant but better, when you take the post for what it is, it is great and very informative and also very helpful.

I will most likely buy a GCS system, to help speed up production until I can afford a good Format Slider. But I would never think that a GCS system could replace a Format Slider. That is where some people, I think, are getting confused.

I dont know Frank very, very well, but I'd like to think that I know him a little, and I know that it wasnt his intention to make GCSs out to be production equipment, much less a replacement for a FS.

[Kevin Halliburton]

Just a question for you guys.... just curious.... How many of you guys have actually used all of these systems in a real working scenario and which ones?? I have only used a GCSS and a EFSTS so I can only really comment on those two.

There is production, then there is mass production. It sounds like some folks got the impression I'm talking about mass production on the caliber of beam saws and CNC equipment. I'm not... but I wouldn't rule it out entirely.

I've used table saws for production, and multi-head CNC routers for mass production.

I'm in architecture now so my production, and mass production, days are over, but for a little over a year now I've been using a well accessorised guide system building our dream home and I'm faster and more accurate with it than I ever imagined I would be. I've built several jigs and fixtures, and have picked up several more from the manufacturer, to make it do more than I ever imagined it could.

I'm not putting forth any challenge or trying to start a comparison war. I haven't even mentioned what guide system I use. I'm simply trying to get people to think about the potential of these systems beyond fancy shooting boards. I've got a $20 straight edge and a pair of C-clamps too. There were reasons I invested far more. These guide system are light years beyond shooting boards. Folks that see nothing more are just flat missing it.

Accurate production level work, say medium sized cabinet shop level, is very doable with a guide system right now. These bad boys are money makers and they are going to get a lot better very soon. Of course they won't replace beam saws, or even high end table saws for that matter - but they will make high end table saw accuracy and production doable for a lot less money. Maybe even doable enough that you will see them replacing SOME of those high dollar saws even in production environments.

Guide systems like the ones discussed in this thread are in their infancy. It's going to be fun watching them grow up.

[Michael Ballent]

OK Kevin, you have me intrigued by what you are using as a GCSS?? There is E, F, and Maefle, and homemade versions.... so what is it? or are you the next great inventor and working out the kinks on your own system :D If you are inventing your own thing I would love to see it in action when you are ready to show it to the world :D I agree with you that these are in their infancy and there will be some pretty clever things coming out. WW are tinkerers and we love improve things.

I too found Frank's test very interesting, and appreciate him taking the time to share his results. Considering the price difference between a full blown slider and a GCSS its pretty impressive that he was able to cut with speed and accuracy.

Some mentioned that comparing these is more like apples to Tequila... My take is oranges to Gran Marnier. Both taste like oranges, but one packs a punch ;) :D

[Paul B. Cresti]

I'm in architecture now so my production,

I'm not putting forth any challenge or trying to start a comparison war. I haven't even mentioned what guide system I use. I'm simply trying to get people to think about the potential of these systems beyond fancy shooting boards. I've got a $20 straight edge and a pair of C-clamps too. There were reasons I invested far more. These guide system are light years beyond shooting boards. Folks that see nothing more are just flat missing it.

Accurate production level work, say medium sized cabinet shop level, is very doable with a guide system right now. These bad boys are money makers and they are going to get a lot better very soon. Of course they won't replace beam saws, or even high end table saws for that matter - but they will make high end table saw accuracy and production doable for a lot less money. Maybe even doable enough that you will see them replacing SOME of those high dollar saws even in production environments.

For example, with a large saw on the guide system I own you can stack and cut several sheets at once right now. (I don't own a large saw so this is one of those seen it done scenarios) I've set up multiple flip stops on my repeater jig and square to cut different sized parts without changing my setup. I've even modified my table saw to use the guide system on it occasionally. I know of at least one manufacturer working on an induction motor saw I'll be able to use on my guides in the near future as well.

Guide systems like the ones discussed in this thread are in their infancy. It's going to be fun watching them grow up.

I have to ask because you brought it up but what is, "in architecture" ? You are either a licensed Architect or you not...Please do not take this as an attack...as it is not.... I just can not take it when people call themselves "designers" or "architectural designers" when there are Licensed Professionals like myself and many others on this forum that have put a lot of sweat behind that title to earned us the priviledge of being an Architect. After all would you go to a "doctor" that dabbles in medicine or a "lawyer" that kind of knows the laws?

I am not talking about manufacturers at all, I have not even mentioned one, at least I do not think I did :confused: but there is still a big difference between a GCSS and a format slider period. I will try to add some of the things that can be done with a simple 8ft slider: rip/edge joint long stock - both solid and sheet goods, crosscut solid and sheetsgoods, miter soild stock and sheetgoods, compound miter solid stock and sheetgoods, cutting odd shaped pieces, cutting very thick pieces, quickly squaring pieces, dadoing, cutting large sheetgoods at angles, cutting very small parts..... and these are all without any special jigs. Now add jigs and the options can become even more impressive. Look at my recent posts of something as simple as my ripping jig and now I can just about eliminate a joiner. Add electronics and computer interface and you can automate a format slider to automatically set up or even cut pieces to preset/stored dimensions. They can become so "simple" to operate in the sense that one no longer needs a tape measure and simply becomes an "operator" that just pushes buttons. My point is.....there is a heck of a lot more to these saws then you seem to elude to.

Once again I point out through my experiences (as that is the only thing i can base it on) a GCSS can not perform all of the functions a Format slider can. If industry really thought that GCSS had anything up on a format slider do you really thing companies like SCM, MM, Martin, Altendorf, Felder, Format 4, Casolin, Casadei, Rojek, Panhans, Paloni, Holzer, Robland........ I could go on and on, would still be around?

It is great that the GCSS is here and it provides a great tool for the fraction of the cost of these format sliders but please do not tell the whole industry that they are wrong and a little contractors saw attached to a aluminum board will replace and supercede everything you have to date.

[Kevin Halliburton]

[quote=Michael Ballent]OK Kevin, you have me intrigued by what you are using as a GCSS?? There is E, F, and Maefle, and homemade versions....

Mine is an "E" with just about all the factory accessories and a few homemade steroids. I use a Bosh 7 1/4" saw that I finally built a custom dust collection system for. It seriously sucks. (In a good way) I'm considering adding a bigger saw to the arsenal but I think I'll wait and see what else hits the market this year.

I'm not a "pro" any more but I've been in construction, in one form or another, since I went full time summers on my grandfather's framing crew at the age of 8, so this is a little more than a hobby to me. When the house is done I'll be trying to convert all that free time into a little money so I'm honing my setup for low end cabinet production as I go.

I'm with you, this is a great thread - It has me wondering how my set-up stacks up time wise to Frank's. I've got a couple of sheets worth of cabinets in my near future. I know the accuracy is there. I may have to get the kitchen timer and see how my system stacks up against his for production. I don't have to set up any saw horses so I'm pretty sure I can whoop his butt. <KIDDING> :D

[Kevin Halliburton]

[quote=Paul B. Cresti]I have to ask because you brought it up but what is, "in architecture" ? You are either a licensed Architect or you not...Please do not take this as an attack...as it is not.... I just can not take it when people call themselves "designers" or "architectural designers" when there are Licensed Professionals like myself and many others on this forum that have put a lot of sweat behind that title to earned us the priviledge of being an Architect. After all would you go to a "doctor" that dabbles in medicine or a "lawyer" that kind of knows the laws?

I'm with you 100% there - No offense taken and I appreciate you asking. In my case "In architecture" means that I'm completing my I.D.P. hours to sit for the exam. At 37, I'm a late bloomer with about 10 years design experience. I have a clear understanding of the sweat blood and tears you've been through and respect it enough to handle the earned titles with care.

I don't think I've told anyone in the industry that they are wrong, except the folks bent on seeing guide systems as nothing more than fancy shooting boards. You make several good points about the slider but I didn't see anything on your list that a well accessorised EZ Smart can't handle. I used the repeaters to rip a dead on 1/6", chip free strip off the side of a 5/8" strip of melamine the other day, just to see if my system was calibrated. I don't know if you can do that on a slider or not, I've never tried. No doubt, the slider can do many of the things you mentioned better... at least for now. Guide systems are capable of far more than most people realise though - at least the one I use.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Kevin,
Best of luck to you on your forth coming exam schedule, it will take some doing but is well worth the accomplishment. Just think when you are done you can look forward to liability insurance, licensing fees, continuing education classes $$, LEEDS certification, arguing with Engineers :D and then trying to undo what an interior designer does to your work :D (sorry just a joke), and trying to actually make a living! Joking asside, I love my choosen "two" fields and the best way to describe it is, it is not what I do but whom I am.

If you have never tried using a format slider for any length of time you will not know what you are missing. They can be a very simple cast iron/steel/aluminum beast, like what I have, to something extremely mechanized with all the digital/electronic components one could want. When people talk about a GCSS they always seem to talk about sheet processing not solid stock, well a format slider can easily handle all of those also. If you see the need for a cabinet saw, scms/miter/chop saw, router dado station, edge joining and sheetgood processing in your shop then a format slider can excell at all of those and beyond. I have used both and I just can not see (from my experience) a GCSS doing all of those well enough in a shop environment. These saws are not new as they have been around for quite sometime and all along they have been getting better and better.

[Kevin Halliburton]

[quote=Paul B. Cresti]Kevin,
Best of luck to you on your forth coming exam schedule,

Thanks Paul - My boss actually wrote much of the new exam in Texas but I can't get a word out of him. It's probably still an advantage. I'm trusting him to make sure I know what I need to know when I'm done with the I.D.P. requirements.

If you have never tried using a format slider for any length of time you will not know what you are missing.

I haven't, well sort of haven't any way, at least not the real deal monster like the one you have. I did use my guide system to effectively create a slider with both a movable fence and table. With that set-up and all the square, repeater and clamping capabilities at my disposal now, I can attach pretty much anything to the guides and mill it, with a variety of blades, at just about any angle, and do it quickly, repeatedly, and accurately, on as many parts as I want to. It's really opened a few doors for me.

How productive does something need to be before it's considered productive? How versatile does something need to be before it's considered versatile? How durable... how repeatable... My guide system isn't a format slider, but in my book it's all of the above and more.

This ain't your momma's shooting board... I think it has a little more potential than most folks realise. Actually, a lot more potential... I don't know where the apex for this guide system is but we are not there yet.

[Dino Makropoulos]

This whole thread was started to see how a Guided Tool System (GTS) stacks up against a slider. I happen to have a Festool system, so that is what I used, but I would expect similar results with an EZ system. I really don't care about exact results, I am just happy to know that the results using an GTS are in the same approximate range as those using a European combo machine equipped with a sliding table.

As with any experiments, multilpe tests are good. So I would welcome any results for similar tasks reported by other.


Nice thread Frank.
With the "Cabinet Maker" the (GTS) can produce cabinet parts
in less than 20 sec per piece.
Most of the time is lost on measuring and setting up the rails.
This timing was on a slow pace and the accuracy within 0.005"

Routing first, is better and faster.
At least 50% faster and even more accurate.
I think you made the right choice going with a (GTS).

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Before everyone starts using the word 'pathetic' thinking it's harmless, I think it's common usage in the US is much more in line with the 2nd definition from this dictionary. That is, it's generally taken as a 'fighting' word.

-------------------
pa·thet·ic
adj.

1. Arousing or capable of arousing sympathetic sadness and compassion: “The old, rather shabby room struck her as extraordinarily pathetic” (John Galsworthy).
2. Arousing or capable of arousing scornful pity
---------------------
Thomas, you may be correct that the word is often used in the more derogatory manner, but the milder use of the word is still correct.

If I'm talking about my female dog, should I not use the word bitch, as some have taken that word to new levels of bad use? :D

My point was that the use of the word in this case was NOT the derogatory one, but the one that is closer to the first meaning.

Words mean things, and one should not jump to the conclusion that the worst possible meaning is intended, if you are not sure about how a word is used, why not just ask for a clarification???

Give the writer the benefit of the doubt, I would think this would be the default position here on SMC.

Do you remember the story where the city worker got fired for using the word "niggling" do describe the actions of a manager.......?

Someone who had a poor vocabulary overheard the conversation and was "offended" and the person using the word, in the proper way, was fired.


Niggle;
1 a : TRIFLE (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/trifle) b : to spend too much effort on minor details
2 : to find fault constantly in a petty way : CARP (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/carp) <she haggles="" she="">niggles, she wears out our patience -- Virginia Woolf>
3 : GNAW (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/gnaw)
transitive senses : to give stingily or in tiny portions
I bring this up to point out that we should all give each other the benefit of the doubt, and it would be better to assume the best, instead of the worst.

Just my 2 yens worth :D</she>

[Frank Pellow]

Nice thread Frank.
With the "Cabinet Maker" the (GTS) can produce cabinet parts
in less than 20 sec per piece.
Most of the time is lost on measuring and setting up the rails.
This timing was on a slow pace and the accuracy within 0.005"

Routing first, is better and faster.
At least 50% faster and even more accurate.
I think you made the right choice going with a (GTS).
That's very impressive Dino! I assume that the "Cabinet Maker" is one of your EZ rails with a repeater and with some other supports and jigs.

But, I very much doubt that I could achieve that sort of speed if I had one of your "Cabinet Maker"s in my shop. I would still have set up time, time to bring each sheet from ourside the shop, etc. Heck, I doubt that I could even push the saw that quickly through the plywood.

[Frank Pellow]

I saw this as a very informative post about guided circular saw systems. As Frank said initially, there have been recent discussions about the practicality of using a GCSS for cutting sheet goods instead of a table saw equipped with a sliding table. Frank worked with numbers that were previously provided by a member who owns a MiniMax combo machine, which is not what most of us think of as a typical table saw equipped with a sliding table, but it was the gauge that Frank wanted to work with. Frank ran his comparison and posted his results. I liked the post because it showed that the GCSS, with no brand preference expressed, was a viable alternative to a table saw equipped with a sliding table. When one can get results like those in Frank's post when using a GCSS, it makes such a system a very attractive alternative for many users. Frank didn't make it a Festool only thread, or a Festool versus MiniMax thread. It was a fair objective post by someone who approached it in a fair and objective manner. I really like that type of approach.
I have read so many threads about the F and E systems that I couldn't begin to guess the number of posts that I've read. When I finally waded through all of the disagreements (all too often heated) among the enthusiasts of each system, I was actually able to see the benefits of the GCSS without getting caught up in all of the emotions. I guess the real problem we keep encountering in these threads is one of emotions and perceptions. In this thread some saw it as an attack on production machines, others saw it as an attack on Festool, some saw it as dangerous racing, and possibly there were a few MiniMax owners who saw it as a butt kicking for Festool. But when you weed all that emotion out there is some good information here.

The end result is that Frank illustrated one thing quite clearly, and there were others who concurred, and that was that a GCSS can hold its own when it comes to cutting sheet goods in the typical home shop. In his post it didn't matter if you prefer Festool or EZ Smart, the post showed that GCSS's do have a realistic place in a great many workshops. And it showed that a GCSS can accurately do the final processing of sheet goods with the same accuracy as a table saw. Many of us who use one of the systems already knew this, but Frank's post showed the many who may not own a GCSS that a GCSS is both accurate and fast while providing quality cuts.

Thanks for the great post Frank!
Thanks for the compliments Don. I was attempting to do just what you said and it is good to know that I achieved my objective (at least, with some people).

[tod evans]

maybe somebody could set me straight here? if this "guided circular saw" idea progresses along the lines layed out we will have an induction motor powered blade,(read heavy!) attached to some sort of guide that has very close tolerances along its length,(read linear bearings).....okay, now this monster is accurate and powerfull but there are two issues i haven`t seen addressed, 1) weight and 2) cost, induction motors and linear rails-n-bearings will make this contraption so heavy that it is easier to move the goods than the equipment. and these components don`t come cheap! one thompson bearing will cost almost as much as the porter-cable saw currently in use, and a pair with rails cost more than the whole festool set-up. in fact by following this train of thought, the "new" system now cost and weighs more than the units offered by safety speedcut that have a proven track record on jobsites across the country. so progression of this "idea" all of a sudden is in charted territory...isn`t it possible that portable guided systems are close to the apex of their true ability now? i`m asking........02 tod

[Dino Makropoulos]

Frank.
There many good surprises on the DWC and GTSs
The 20 SEC per piece was ... going very-very slow.
If we can eliminate the measuring-aligning and clamping, what we have left?
Just the cutting.
The "cabinet maker" is made up from two parts.
The self aligning sliding square with one 26" repeater arm.
Much faster than the two repeaters.
But even here we need to rethink the cut.
Due to machine and space limitations, we rip first and cross cut after.
Now we can cross cut first and rip after.
The pieces are much easier to handle, the cross cuts are limited to 3 cuts per panel.
The rip cuts are less than 24" and we don't need to set up two repeaters.

If you think that was fast...Imagine this now.

4 consecutive dimensional cross cuts. 4" x 24"on 3/4" ply.
Less than 13 sec.
But the best part of all this, is the safety and accuracy.
No more kickbacks and no more mistakes.

I'm sure one day soon you will cut your timing in 1/2.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

But the best part of all this, is the safety and accuracy.
No more kickbacks and no more mistakes.

Dino you are speaking for yourself here, I know that with anything I use there are going to be mistakes, MY mistakes :o

The old grey matter just goes "Hiccup" sometimes......nothing to do with the wood working machinery..... ;) :D

Cheers!

[Frank Pellow]

maybe somebody could set me straight here? if this "guided circular saw" idea progresses along the lines layed out we will have an induction motor powered blade,(read heavy!) attached to some sort of guide that has very close tolerances along its length,(read linear bearings).....okay, now this monster is accurate and powerfull but there are two issues i haven`t seen addressed, 1) weight and 2) cost, induction motors and linear rails-n-bearings will make this contraption so heavy that it is easier to move the goods than the equipment. and these components don`t come cheap! one thompson bearing will cost almost as much as the porter-cable saw currently in use, and a pair with rails cost more than the whole festool set-up. in fact by following this train of thought, the "new" system now cost and weighs more than the units offered by safety speedcut that have a proven track record on jobsites across the country. so progression of this "idea" all of a sudden is in charted territory...isn`t it possible that portable guided systems are close to the apex of their true ability now? i`m asking........02 tod
Tod, I fail to see why such a saw is needed. The present repetoire of circular saws seems to be performing accurately and standing up to heavy use.

[Frank Pellow]

Frank.
There many good surprises on the DWC and GTSs
The 20 SEC per piece was ... going very-very slow.
If we can eliminate the measuring-aligning and clamping, what we have left?
Just the cutting.
The "cabinet maker" is made up from two parts.
The self aligning sliding square with one 26" repeater arm.
Much faster than the two repeaters.
But even here we need to rethink the cut.
Due to machine and space limitations, we rip first and cross cut after.
Now we can cross cut first and rip after.
The pieces are much easier to handle, the cross cuts are limited to 3 cuts per panel.
The rip cuts are less than 24" and we don't need to set up two repeaters.
...

Dino, I think that I understand (although a detailed picture sequence would help).

You said: "what we have left? Just the cutting." You forgot some things thing we have left. As I said before, in my shop I would need to include setup and tear down time for the table. And everyone needs to include the time taken to get the plywood and to position it on the table. Everyone also has to take the time to deal with the wood that has been cut in order to get it marked and piled neatly somewhere so that it is not in the way of the next set up cuts.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Dino you are speaking for yourself here, I know that with anything I use there are going to be mistakes, MY mistakes :o

The old grey matter just goes "Hiccup" sometimes......nothing to do with the wood working machinery..... ;) :D

Cheers!
Stu.
My mistake.;)
I thought, if I can cut without mistakes, anyone can.:D
With 100 things on my mind...:confused:
I like to leave the "thinking" to the tool.;)

Cheers from Edison.:cool:

[Paul B. Cresti]

Tod, I fail to see why such a saw is needed. The present repetoire of circular saws seems to be performing accurately and standing up to heavy use.

Frank,
Tod was speaking in regards to the comment that a GCSS could be made into a heavy duty production type machine. I think his final question/observation is as is the GCSS may have reached its peak as far as its use.

I can see how a one man shop, if one wants to not spend any money, can use a GCSS to cut sheetgoods and some solid stock (within limits). At the same time this will only be straight cuts. I have not seen any way to repeatably cut angles, miters and compound angles. As far as the size of the shop.... I would say it would have to be a hobbiest or part time professional doing one-offs. When it starts to enter a more "production type" scenario be it either more employees or more volume a stationary machine dedicated to a task becomes more econmical and easier to use. Something like a format slider in processing sheetgoods (for this example) only requires one to lay the sheet on the outrigger. All the operator needs to do is slide the table and rotate the sheet as needed...all the fence settings and crosscut stops are preset. There is no manuvering of rails or saws or clamps or jigs or making sure you are on a support table. When the format slider becomes to slow...in comes a CNC router....then another and then maybe a CNC beam saw where stacks of sheets can be cut. I have no experience on these so this is only from my "understanding". One you reach those levels all you do is press a button

Again I repeat myself in saying the GCSS is great invention in allowing the "regular joe" a way to process sheetgoods, a way to handle this work on the job site but it has its limitations. Talk to anyone using a format slider and ask their opinion, talk to someone using both a format slider and a GCSS and see what they say. If you have not used both you can not honestly give a real view on both.

We all can share our experiences on what "works for us" but to think this new invention, GCSS, that does fits a great nitch will outproduce industrial equipment is just plain wrong.

[tod evans]

paul is correct, i`m wondering if these units haven`t reached the apex of their usefulness vs cost? here`s a link to the safety speedcut unit i spoke of that contractors/jobshops have been using for years.
http://www.panelsaw.com/products_combos_sr5u.htm
.02 tod

[Kevin Halliburton]

maybe somebody could set me straight here? if this "guided circular saw" idea progresses along the lines layed out we will have an induction motor powered blade,(read heavy!) attached to some sort of guide that has very close tolerances along its length,(read linear bearings).....okay, now this monster is accurate and powerfull but there are two issues i haven`t seen addressed, 1) weight and 2) cost, induction motors and linear rails-n-bearings will make this contraption so heavy that it is easier to move the goods than the equipment. and these components don`t come cheap! one thompson bearing will cost almost as much as the porter-cable saw currently in use, and a pair with rails cost more than the whole festool set-up. in fact by following this train of thought, the "new" system now cost and weighs more than the units offered by safety speedcut that have a proven track record on jobsites across the country. so progression of this "idea" all of a sudden is in charted territory...isn`t it possible that portable guided systems are close to the apex of their true ability now? i`m asking........02 tod

Maybe all of those things can get smaller, lighter and more affordable and maybe they won't all be necessary at all.

"The advancement of the arts, from year to year, taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end." Patent Office Commissioner Henry Ellsworth - 1843 report to Congress.

Boy, wouldn't I love to instant message that guy and ask him when we should expect the presaged arrival of that imagined apex! I can't get anything over on you guys but I bet my guide system would impress the heck out of him. :D

[Allen Grimes]

If you have not used both you can not honestly give a real view on both.Paul,

Like I said earlier (I think), I have not used either system. My view of these 2 systems is from the outside looking in, even though one day, I will use both, I really dont know all that much about either one right now.

But Im looking at this whole thing from a logical/common sense stand point. It seems illogical to me for somebody to think that a GTS system can compete with a Format Slider on a production level. Frank, I am not talking about you.

Another thing about this thread is that it is a comparison of one retired hobbyist to another. I'm sure you, Paul, could double or even triple the times that Charlie posted, and if you cant now, Im sure that someday with more experience you woud be able to. Where would that leave this comparison?

Kevin,

The problem is that you are taking this comparison for more than what it is. You are not taking into account all of the important things. I remember when Charlie first got his combo machine and it was not too long ago. Im not sure how long ago it was but Im thinking a year maybe? Also you have to take into account that neither he nor Frank were working at production speeds and that they are both retired hobbyists.

I dont think that we would get even close to the same results if we had someone running their production shop routine with a FSlider vs say Dino, doing the same cuts with his system.

Kevin, I know that you are happy with your system and you should be. Right now I would be happy with anything I can get, but I think that what you are saying is more along the lines of wishful thinking than anything else.

[Michael Ballent]

You know the whole thing is moot. I think that everyone is in agreement that the format style TS will always be faster, just due to the fact that it's already there in place, connected to electric ready to cut. I would assume that both the E and F systems would be equally fast provided they both have the exact same jigs for the repeat cuts. No one has mentioned the time (in total) one would have to take to set up the jig(s) so you can even begin to make all those cuts, let alone the time to reset the jig so you can make subsequent cuts. The format style machines you set the stop and you just go.

The GCSS will continue to evolve, but I do not believe they will take over in production land (CNC will continue to rule there) For a one man shop without the funds to get the slider then the GCSS will rule that market. The horizontal panel saw (the one that Tod Evans showed) I think may go the way of the RAS. At least the ones I have seen that are extremely accurate are extremely expensive, and for the price I would think that a format TS would be better choice, just for the flexibility...

Just my hobbiest $.02 :D

[Burt Waddell]

Allen,

I have had the opportunity to use both of the Guided Saw Systems we are discussing and I have never been more surprised than when I took a square with an attached fence with a stop on the fence and went to work. It was quick. Work was much easier. When I finished I wasn't as tired because the big board had to be moved only once. Material handling was greatly reduced. I personally believe better things are on the way for the guided system. Bottom line is the guided systems seem to be to good to be true. Most of us are just having a problem accepting the fact that something so simple can work so well.

[Allen Grimes]

Burt,

I have no problem accepting that GTSs work well for what they are designed for, but I dont think that they were designed to take the place of Format Sliders.

Like I said earlier, I will definately get both on my way up to mass production. That may be quite a few years from now, but it will definately happen.

I just want to point out one thing. I think Paul may have touched upon this a little, but I will say it again, in my own words.

It seems to me that some people dont realize that, GTS systems may be evolving, but so are Format Sliders, even if one day GTSs can compete with the Format Sliders of today, the Format Sliders of that day will still blow GTSs out of the water. I dont think that the evolution is even close to over for Format Sliders as even Paul comes up with jigs of his own to improve his FS.

I really do respect GTSs for what they are, but I think it would be foolish to expect them to do more than what they are designed for.

I may be on the outside looking in in this situation, but I do have a pretty clear view of whats going on. Only time will give me the hands on experience to truly understand the difference, but I am not an idiot either.

Trust, me the day will come that I will give Uncle Bob a call and I will have a huge order for him, but I dont expect to buy a furniture factory from him, just a way to speed up my production until I can afford a furniture factory.

[Burt Waddell]

And that factory will be full of Dino's stuff.

Burt

[Allen Grimes]

And that factory will be full of Dino's stuff.

BurtYeah, Im going to be the first man ever to build an entire factory full of GTSs. :cool:

[tod evans]

And that factory will be full of Dino's stuff.

Burt

sorry guys, i`m done with the discussion. when the actual merits can no longer be discussed i see no reason to contribute any further.

frank, my sincere appoligies for the direction this thread taken....02 tod

[Burt Waddell]

Todd,

You can't laugh a little?? Allen said he was going to order his system from "Uncle Bob" (I assume Bob Marino) and I said the Factory was going to be supplied by Dino.

Frank, this is an excellent thread. Thanks

Burt

[Allen Grimes]

Honestly, Burt, I didnt think that the comment was all that funny either, but you did show me that I was taking this thread way too seriously. So with that I am done as well.

Thanks again Frank for posting your findings. I does give me a little hope of what to look forward to on the way to reaching my goal. Sorry if I said anything that may have offended you, through-out the course of this thread.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

ALL you guys take these threads too seriously. Fact is, no one knows which way furniture manufacturing will head. You can speculate, but its only speculation and there is no argument to win at this point.

BTW Tod, Burt's comment was kinda funny in a smart alec sort of way.

[Steve Clardy]

Ahmmm. Could we get back on track?

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Ahmmm. Could we get back on track?
Is that a guided or format track..... ;) :D

Seriously, this has been a GREAT thread, I'm just happy to sit back and read it.

Tod, you have presented some really good and insightful points, I very much enjoyed reading them.

Paul brought some good points too, as well as Kevin, and others.

I can only stand here and watch this lively good discussion.

If it is over, that is fine, as it has been a good thread and a good read, thanks to all that participated!

Cheers!

[Rob Blaustein]

You know the whole thing is moot. I think that everyone is in agreement that the format style TS will always be faster, just due to the fact that it's already there in place, connected to electric ready to cut. I would assume that both the E and F systems would be equally fast provided they both have the exact same jigs for the repeat cuts. No one has mentioned the time (in total) one would have to take to set up the jig(s) so you can even begin to make all those cuts, let alone the time to reset the jig so you can make subsequent cuts. The format style machines you set the stop and you just go.

The GCSS will continue to evolve, but I do not believe they will take over in production land (CNC will continue to rule there) For a one man shop without the funds to get the slider then the GCSS will rule that market. The horizontal panel saw (the one that Tod Evans showed) I think may go the way of the RAS. At least the ones I have seen that are extremely accurate are extremely expensive, and for the price I would think that a format TS would be better choice, just for the flexibility...

Just my hobbiest $.02 :D

I think Michael has hit the nail on the head here. I think not hitting the apex for the guided systems doesn't mean that the saw will get better, but rather that setting up the system will get better and easier as more clever jigs are developed. Thus far it seems that two companies are taking the lead here in terms of endowing these guided systems with capabilities that in the past were only in the realm of sliders/format saws. They (guided systems) have a niche, and although there is surely overlap with the format saws, the latter will likely continue to reign in the production shop. But I do love my guided system, which is good, since it is the only realistic option for me as it is for others.

[Dino Makropoulos]

I think is nice to learn about the capabilities of the GTS
the same way we learn about all other tools.
Can we do that without anyone getting upset? :confused:

In this link we can see the GTS in action.
The first link shows the versatility of the "JIG".
Exact dados-line drilling and cut to size without moving the part or the guide rail.
what other tool can do that? A multi head CNC?

http://eurekazone.com/gallery/ez-gismo-32-line-drilling

In this link we can see the speed and ease of the system.
No more tape measure and pencil marks.
No more pushing the panels.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/ez the cabinet maker.


http://eurekazone.com/gallery/repeater the repeaters
Here we can see the repeaters in action.
Accuracy-speed and safety like never before.
You set the repeaters, and you can cut as fast as you like.

I know what's coming now.
But how we can talk about a tool
if we don't even know the tool?:confused:
And how we can talk of what's next
if we don't even know what is here already?:confused: :confused:
Have fun.

[Frank Pellow]

Most informative (and on topic :) ). Thanks Dino!

[Kevin Halliburton]

ALL you guys take these threads too seriously. Fact is, no one knows which way furniture manufacturing will head. You can speculate, but its only speculation and there is no argument to win at this point.

BTW Tod, Burt's comment was kinda funny in a smart alec sort of way.

No argument here - I'm just a very pleasantly surprised guide user trying to get people to see their potential. My guide system far surpassed my early, limited expectations so I ramped those expectations up quite a bit. My participation in this thread has been an attempt to get others to ramp up their expectations as well.

I hope a few people have been surprised by the present GTS capabilities showcased in this thread. I think many of us will be even more surprised by GTS development in the next five years. I've had to stretch my brain a few times to find a way but the EZ Smart has cleared every bar I've set for it - I'm just looking forward to seeing how high Dino and his tools can really jump, and whether the competition can match him. I believe that the more we all stretch our expectations, the higher that bar will ultimately be.

Whatever bar they ultimately clear, the woodworking profession will be better for it. That's going to be good for all of us. It sure is fun cutting stuff up and putting it back together. The higher the quality, the better the safety, the broader the capability, and the more affordable the tools are that let us do what we do, the more fun it is. The serious profit potential is an awfully sweet perk!