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Keith Outten
08-01-2003, 7:00 AM
This is the sign Aaron and I made this week for Ken Salisbury's woodworking show display. It is made from alder, the center logo is cherry and is set into a 1/8" deep hole so that it is just slightly raised above the surface of the sign. Overall dimentions of the sign are 10" x 13" x 7/8" thick and it is engraved on both sides. The lettering is engraved almost 1/32" deep and the plaque was given a roman ogee edge treatment on both sides. Finished with 3 coats of laquer and power rubbed with Johnson's past wax before the engraving was done.

Ken hasn't seen this sign yet, I'm sure that by now he has already left Alabama for the 5 Barns Picnic so I'm posting the picture of the sign to share with everyone before we surprise Ken at the picnic.

I had hoped to have time to build a wrought iron stand for this sign but time ran out on me this week.

Glenn Clabo
08-01-2003, 8:13 AM
Keith,
Very nice and I'm sure the ol guy will love it.

Bob Oswin
08-11-2003, 5:25 PM
This is the sign Aaron and I made this week for Ken Salisbury's woodworking show display. It is made from alder, the center logo is cherry and is set into a 1/8" deep hole so that it is just slightly raised above the surface of the sign. Overall dimentions of the sign are 10" x 13" x 7/8" thick and it is engraved on both sides. The lettering is engraved almost 1/32" deep and the plaque was given a roman ogee edge treatment on both sides. Finished with 3 coats of laquer and power rubbed with Johnson's past wax before the engraving was done.

Ken hasn't seen this sign yet, I'm sure that by now he has already left Alabama for the 5 Barns Picnic so I'm posting the picture of the sign to share with everyone before we surprise Ken at the picnic.

I had hoped to have time to build a wrought iron stand for this sign but time ran out on me this week.
Kieth:
Excellent layout and good choice of fonts!
Did you do both sides?
What power is that machine of yours?
I am thinking about a used 45 watter.

Bob

Keith Outten
08-11-2003, 8:48 PM
Thanks Bob,

Yes, we did engrave both sides of the sign. We made it for Ken to use on his table at woodworking shows. We had hoped to build him an iron stand with a corian baseplate but we ran out of time. I finished the design of the stand and got the first piece of 1/2" square stock twisted and the scrolls sized, but another job I was working on went beyond the alloted schedule because I goofed up laying out the back of an iron bar stool and had to rebuild it...geez when you get behind schedule you make mistakes trying to get caught up.

Aaron did the graphic design and selected the fonts. I did the shop work with one exception, I let aaron sand the plaque :)

My laser is a 35 watt CO2 and I wish I could have bought the 100 watt power supply...MORE POWER!!

I was looking at web sites today of other laser manufacturers, there are some really nice machines available today. Lots of changes in the last 18 months. Before you buy call me on the phone and pick my brains. I wish I had known someone who had experience with them before I bought my laser.



Kieth:
Excellent layout and good choice of fonts!
Did you do both sides?
What power is that machine of yours?
I am thinking about a used 45 watter.

Bob

Bob Oswin
08-11-2003, 10:56 PM
Thanks Bob,

Yes, we did engrave both sides of the sign.

I was looking at web sites today of other laser manufacturers, there are some really nice machines available today. Lots of changes in the last 18 months. Before you buy call me on the phone and pick my brains. I wish I had known someone who had experience with them before I bought my laser.

Thanks for the reply Keith:
I have experience with sign design and layout having operated a large format ink-jet studio in the mid 90's.
The laser engraving appears to be a really interesting niche market for a guy me slowing down and wanting a method to keep my hand in the game.
I was thinking of custom styles (tattoos) that could be applied to wood etc products at the point of sale for the tourist promotional trades.
Could a set up be portables say in a cube van or similar?
I am thinking of fairs and exhibits during the summer months as well as cottage signs etc.
I'm rambling a bit here but that's the way I figure out things.
I will definitely call you when I have zeroed in on a game plan.

Thanks again Bob

Keith Outten
08-11-2003, 11:51 PM
Bob,

Portable isn't how I envision lasers when I think of them but it's not impossible. Although I saw mine at a woodworking show, the sales rep hauled it with him to do demos but there are issues. You have to have a small air compressor...a little air brush compressor will do. The big ticket item is an exhaust filter and fan (400 CFM minimum). I use my shop dust collector for the exhaust fan and dump to the outside. Indoors you must build a filter box to collect the dust and vapor effluent. At an outdoor event you could dump via a 4" PVC pipe but there is an odor when cutting wood and plastics so the filter may still be required at a crowded event.

Another concern is the insurance, hauling a machine worth 13 to 20 grand might be hard on the premiums. Remember also that laser engravers are precision machines and aren't made to take a constant beating from truck or trailer transporting. The small desktop units would fit in a large back seat but the exhaust issues are the same as the larger units.

My Laser weighs about 350 lbs.

If you could setup a desk unit at an event you would sell every item you made but some projects can be time consuming...up to two hours of engraving time. A simple sign can easily take 30 minutes in the engraver.
Lasers are absolutely fascinating to watch and will draw a major crowd.




Could a set up be portables say in a cube van or similar?
I am thinking of fairs and exhibits during the summer months as well as cottage signs etc.
I'm rambling a bit here but that's the way I figure out things.
I will definitely call you when I have zeroed in on a game plan.

Thanks again Bob

Bob Oswin
08-13-2003, 8:18 AM
Bob,

If you could setup a desk unit at an event you would sell every item you made but some projects can be time consuming...up to two hours of engraving time. A simple sign can easily take 30 minutes in the engraver.
Lasers are absolutely fascinating to watch and will draw a major crowd.

I will have to reconsider my options.
The time factor is a killer in this type of a business.
Many people don't want to pay for the design either.
I did not realize that the systems were so bulky and heavy either.
Thanks for your input Keith.

regards
Bob

Keith Outten
08-13-2003, 2:24 PM
Bob,

I didn't mean to scare you away but it is best that you know the facts before you even consider buying a laser.

People generally don't like to pay for design time and a laser engraver is definitely design intensive. Every job you do has some graphics layout and design work involved. Hey you have to have a drawing to send to the laser before anything can happen.

Time is definitely a factor. Would you believe that the most profitable job I have done was a precision cutting job on plastic boxes and the job payed $350.00 per hour...each box took 15 seconds to cut. Time considerations are why I recommend that people call me before they buy a laser. I learned quickly that some jobs will never be profitable.

Once you learn the types of projects that are profitable you are on your way to making a very handsome hourly rate. The hard part is keeping the work-flow steady as is the case with any shop work. I don't mind sharing what I have learned. Some things I prefer to discuss over the phone and not post publicly.




I will have to reconsider my options.
The time factor is a killer in this type of a business.
Many people don't want to pay for the design either.
I did not realize that the systems were so bulky and heavy either.
Thanks for your input Keith.

regards
Bob

Bob Oswin
08-13-2003, 5:03 PM
Bob,

I didn't mean to scare you away but it is best that you know the facts before you even consider buying a laser.

Some things I prefer to discuss over the phone and not post publicly.

Don't worry about the Griz.
I am just doing my homework before I make my next move.
Some of the myths surrounding piece work are that small signs are cheaper than big signs and "you're the artist- impress me with a few sketches and let me choose"
So, having had that experience on occasion, ;) I was looking more for a deal to do some simple branding like "hand crafted for>>>>>>name>>>>"
>>>>date>>>>etc" to go on various crafters products.

I thought that I could build these boiler plate logos and tattoos in DXF or postscript and just fill in the variable data at point of sale.
It would be nice to get a production run or two from a manufacturer but there are already a few trophy shops offering short run stuff here.
I am doing some more research this week Keith and will arrange a call to you when I have some reasonble questions formulated.

Thanks so much for your help to date;

Regards
Bob

Nick Silva
08-28-2003, 11:33 AM
The big ticket item is an exhaust filter and fan (400 CFM minimum). I use my shop dust collector for the exhaust fan and dump to the outside.

Well I guess great minds think alike. I've done the same thing and rigged a portable dust collector to the laser. It does a pretty good job, but as with most dust collectors - it is LOUD. The guys at the shows generally have a great indoor filtration system. However, they are expensive (about 3k) and you will go through a lot of filters. They too are not cheap.

It is not impossible to move the laser around in a van. But I wouldn't want to be the guy in the booth next to yours. Besides the loudness of the collector, it is also spewing some noxious smells (especially if you're engraving leather!).

My roomate did tell me he saw a guy done in New Orleans Bourbon Street doing some quick plaques/souveniers with a laser system out of his van. But he couldn't tell me how he was filtering it. Anything quiet (like a squirlcage setup) couldn't have enough cfm throughput, so it had to have been something bigger. It might have just been the Bourbon streetnoise that covered it up. peace.

Keith Outten
08-28-2003, 2:34 PM
Nick,

I just spent almost two hours on the phone with a marketing manager with Universal Laser. Everyone I have talked to recently at Universal has been very friendly and helpful. I discussed amoung other things my upcoming visit to a local distributor to view their equipment. We also discussed marketing ideas for woodworkers and their new drivers and machines they are working on now.

I have some samples prepared for them to engrave so I can compare their machines to mine. I really like their platform and the options they have for their machines.

The new portable machines are a real kick, I hope there is one in my future :)

I asked them if they are interested in getting involved with us at SawMill Creek and I think they will in some capacity in the future. Entry level lasers are getting very affordable and I would like to have a representative who can provide good advise concerning hardware for our members who are considering making the trip to the "Light Side" (Pun Intended).

Aaron Montgomery
08-28-2003, 4:17 PM
Nick,
Entry level lasers are getting very affordable

Glad to see lasers/computers making inroads to the woodworking shop, but define affordable. While I'd love to have a laser in the shop I would consider it more of a "toy" than a serious must-have tool. The ones I've seen at wood shows have been 10-20k and that's way out of line for 98% of us. Bring these things to the shop for < 1k and I think there will be a market. I would also think that they should be big enough to do panel inserts for doors

What is the maintenance/upkeep and life expectancy of these things? Repair costs? I guess I've gotten used to the idea of replacing my computer every 3 years, but I usually expect a quality shop tool to last a lifetime with routine (and fairly inexpensive) maintenance.

BTW - the sign kicks ass! :)

Thanks!

Nick Silva
08-28-2003, 4:18 PM
Nick,
I just spent almost two hours on the phone with a marketing manager with Universal Laser. Everyone I have talked to recently at Universal has been very friendly and helpful. I discussed amoung other things my upcoming visit to a local distributor to view their equipment. We also discussed marketing ideas for woodworkers and their new drivers and machines they are working on now.


You know, at the core all the laser engravers out there are basically the same. You indicated you have an Epilog. I think they make a great machine (and I see their DFW rep every year at the shows). Same with ULS. I do think the rotary fixture that ULS has is better (at least for the things I was doing with it). Epilog had a superior driver for a while with thier 3D mode. ULS now has that. However, I'm pissed at them for not making it backward compatible to Win95/98. My old laptop won't handle Win2k or Xp so unless I'm willing to spend the money (which I'm not) on a new laptop, I don't get the 3d mode.

I'm happy the prices are coming down. I know its because of all those pacific rim knockoffs. While I haven't taken any of those for a test drive, I'm happy with the quality of my ULS M300 and the fact that they are regionlly local. My M300 is a rugged machine. I've given those servos quite a workout in the past and have never had a problem. I know that Epilog is in the same category of quality. But I don't really see a lot of difference in them that would force me to choose one over the other. If I had to choose a new one right now, I'd probably look very carefully at price. Of course service is definately one of those things that would tip the scales. peace.

Keith Outten
08-28-2003, 8:24 PM
Aaron,

First of all thanks for the nice comment on the sign. I would love to take all the credit but the laser did all the hard work. Aaron Koehl did the design and I made the plaque.

My comments concerning woodworking shops owning lasers is directed toward small businesses. Although there are some hobbyists who could afford to purchase a laser out of pocket the reality is that lasers are business machines.

A large group of our members do run small part time businesses, I think these people are excellent candidates for adding laser capability to their shops. My reasoning involves the kind of work these people do, many produce very high end products often beyond anything you could purchase in a conventional outlet. Adding engraving to their projects can often expose them to a new level of clients and higher profit margins. Almost every woodworker at SawMill Creek owns a table saw, router, joiner, etc. When clients want to add engraving or personalization the field immediately drops to just a few.

We can also consider that hundreds of new product options open up to those who own lasers as a woodworking tool. Any business owner who can double or triple their profit margin by purchasing a new tool will do it in a heart beat... it's a no brainer.

As far as lasers being toys well thats not a word I would have ever used in relation to a laser. Consider if you can use a CAD program you can pick up precision machining work and make $350.00 an hour. Engraving black marble tile with photographs can go as high as $250.00 each and if you do four tiles a day...easy math. Designing signs for commercial properties is also very lucrative work, engraving glass for cabinet shops, etc.

Lasers are killer machines and in my opinion the ultimate woodworking tool. Success is in marketing, not production since production is relatively easy if you can use Corel Draw!

Maintenance is mostly a daily cleaning procedure. Lasers are very tough machines but they won't last forever. Some manufacturers say that major maintenance should be expected between 10 and 20 thousand hours. Established engraving shops generally pay off their new lasers in six months, starting from scratch takes a little longer. Lasers should be considered another production tool for the shop, not a stand alone business.

Stay away from the traditional engraving market, engraving companies can't compete in your world and you can't compete in theirs.

Aaron Montgomery
08-28-2003, 8:47 PM
Just so it's not taken out of context, my "toy" comment was aimed more at the hobbiest shop and not at anyone doing this for profit. How long ago was it that drum sanders were out of reach for most hobbyists and now there are several good sanders within reach of woodworkers that have the space and some discretionary funds. I hope someday that lasers will also fall into that category. What pricepoint are these at today?

While not being that familiar with the machines, I don't see that the hardware is all that complex. Is it not basically a plotter with a laser instead of a pen? Is the expense for these not tied up in the software to control them?

I'll be keeping my eye on this forum and look forward to seeing more unique and stunning pieces as you move forward.

Doug Littlejohn
09-04-2003, 4:18 PM
Hey Keith -

When you get back, please give us an update on the 'presentation' as well as the BBQ.

Thanks.

BuLLdoGG
09-11-2003, 7:26 PM
looks great thx for sharing

Aaron Koehl
09-12-2003, 11:08 AM
Just so it's not taken out of context, my "toy" comment was aimed more at the hobbiest shop and not at anyone doing this for profit. How long ago was it that drum sanders were out of reach for most hobbyists and now there are several good sanders within reach of woodworkers that have the space and some discretionary funds. I hope someday that lasers will also fall into that category. What pricepoint are these at today?

While not being that familiar with the machines, I don't see that the hardware is all that complex. Is it not basically a plotter with a laser instead of a pen? Is the expense for these not tied up in the software to control them?

I'll be keeping my eye on this forum and look forward to seeing more unique and stunning pieces as you move forward.Indeed, the software written to control such a system is pricy, but much of the
code for controlling servos is readily available, and the math has been
around since Newton invented calculus.

The price of the machine comes in with the servos and precision indexing, as well
as the laser itself. The laser tube itself is stationary, and is guided by means of a series
of precisely positioned mirrors and a translucent, moving laser head.
The hardware is incredibly complex--much more than an XY plotter.

With all of this in mind, however, I am certain they could bring down the
price of laser units significantly--once the complex software is written,
the programmers are paid and the release goes into maintenance mode,
which leaves the hardware to add to the price.

_Aaron_