Dev's Holy Trinity: Wood Shaping Machines.

[Dev Emch]

I wish to introduce you all to Dev's Holy Trinity. Its a description and classification of wood shaping machines. What they are and what they do.

Imagine a triangle. On the top point of the triangle I place the wood shaper. To the left and down, I place the tennoner. To the right and down, I place the moulder. This is Dev's Holy Trinity. These are the machines that shape wood.

Now, there are two primary types of shaping cuts. The moulding cut and the coping cut. Moulding cuts are done inline to the grain and are easy to do. Coping cuts are simply put, end grain cuts. These tend to be a bit more problamatic. A single work item can have both. A raised panel or a door stile for example.

The first machine is the tennoner. Tennoners are specialized multi head machines that cut end grain. That is what they do. You can adjust a tennoner to cut simple tennons or you can do complex shapes like multiple tennons with offset shoulders or coped undercut shoulders. In the world of router based tooling, the multi router would best be placed in this category.

The next machine on the list is the moulder. Often moulders have four to five heads. These machines can shape all four sides of a rough blank in seconds. They are optimized for long grain cuts. They also weigh many thousand pounds with some as much as 12,000 pounds and more. They are also extremely large and very expensive with modern ones costing $100,000 dollars and more. Others are very small. For example, the single head W&H moulder or the Logosol Moulder/Planer. Both of these are truely versatile machines and you can even cut curved mouldings on the W&H moulder.

The last machine on the list is the shaper. The shaper fits no predefined definition or stereotype. No two shapers are often identical. Some have sliding tables and some have tilting spindles. Others have quick change spindles and yet others run only tiny fixed spindles. Some can do tennons and others can run moulding with power feeders. The important point to remember with a shaper is that it is truely versatile and configurable. It is the swiss army knife of these machines. I can run end grain coping operations one day and long grain moulding operations the next day. And for desert, I can finish up using it to run raised panels. So the shaper is often the machine of choice as it can do lots of various coping and moulding operations. I can even use it to do template shaping with template follower bearings. In the world of router tooling, the router table is the best example of what a shaper has come to personify.

[Tyler Howell]

Pictures Dev!!!

[Dev Emch]

Pictures Dev!!!

Tyler...
This post was not a gloat post but rather an explaination of what it takes to shape wood. I personally do not own a moulder. I do have a tenoner and a shaper. The shaper pix are already posted under

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=19608&highlight=belated+gloat

And I am currently putting my tenoner back together after fixing some problems it was sold to me with. Ah the problems of dealing with dealers. I will be posting it soon.

But as I said, there seems to be some confusion about shaping wood and this mental memory trick helps out to better understand the problem. That is all it is.

[Jim Becker]

Dev, I think you can probably find some pictures "somewhere" to illustrate what each of these machines look like, especially the tenoner and molder. (Most folks have seen pictures of shapers, although not everyone, believe it or not) It would really help make your point!! ;)

[Steve Clardy]

pics pics pics
And, how about some project pics, instead of machine pics.
What do you make Dev? [in wood]

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Steve, You mean we're supposed to be making things with all this iron we own. Now that's a funny idea. :)

[Steve Clardy]

Steve, You mean we're supposed to be making things with all this iron we own. Now that's a funny idea. :)



:D Well I always thought that was the general idea.:rolleyes: ;) :D :D :D

Course, I guess there are machinery colleckteeerrrrr's out here.:eek:

[Dev Emch]

:D Well I always thought that was the general idea.:rolleyes: ;) :D :D :D

Course, I guess there are machinery colleckteeerrrrr's out here.:eek:

Well that is why God created used machine dealers. So you pay extremely high prices for used machines with issues. Then you can spend all your time rebuilding these beasties. And sometimes, you may actually get to make something.:rolleyes:

One thing I have noticed about using hard core industrial machines. Tooling is a pain. You dont just buy something off the shelf but rather have to have it either custom ordered or custom made. The last Leitz shaper head I bought took me 10 weeks to get. They had to order it, make it, ship it, take two weeks off for some european holiday and then I get to pick it up. The word instant gratification is non existant.

This means you sometimes have one or more projects on hold waiting for tooling. Spare parts can be even worse. If one of these old iron machines goes down, your down! And of course now you get to pay a crash fee to a machinist to drop everything and fix or reproduce a part. Good thing I make most of my parts. But still, its a pain. I have spent four hours today working out details with others regarding this. FOUR BLOODY HOURS! Who ever invented the automatic telephone help system should be promtly exceuted by firing squad on pay per view!

Sorry for the rant.

[Tyler Howell]

Dev and All,
I'm not a bully or a hard nose. I and a majority of the population obtain the 2nd best learning experiences from seeing the lesson in question.
The only thing better would be to get "hands-on" with these wonderful devices.
Thanks:)

[Chris Barton]

I suppose that my concern is a bit more fundamental than simply asking for pictures. Many of our members and visitors are beginners in this adventure and I think that advocating or appearing to suggest only commercial equipment will adequately address the needs of shaping wood is a disservice to these folks. Until the advent of the industrial revolution all furniture was made by hand and using human powered tools and continues to be held as the "state of the art" by collectors and conservators. I think there are many ways to shape wood and none are by default the best or only way. I hope we all keep in mind that we can influence our newer and less experienced brethern and that we focus in providing lively conversation, share our experience but, also keep an open mind.

[Scott Banbury]

:D Not to compete with Dev but here's my trinity of wood shaping tools for this week (and I've got pictures):

;)

First in the trinity, the Disston Crosscut Saw. This is some serious old "arn". With a couple of strokes of the file and few taps with the setting hammer, this baby can cut clean and plumb though a 24" diameter Cypress log. It's hard to find these bad boys in decent condition anymore but every woodworker should have one . . .

http://www.scottbanbury.com/crosscutbasin01.jpg

(Seriously, I usually make these things level and coplaner by screwing them to a piece of plywood and clamping it to the bed of my Woodmizer, but this one is to be a sink basin and the 'Mizer will only cut 30" :o )

The next tool in this weeks' wood shaping trinity is my trusty Husky Rancher 55 but sorry, I don't have any pictures to share since I wouldn't want my insurance company to have any documentation of how I was using it :eek: If you must, please make blind plunge chainsaw cuts with care!

The final tool in the trinity is my trusty 4 1/2" Harbor Freight angle grinder fitted with a Harbor Freight Arbortech carving/shaping head. It does a fine job of cleaning up the marks left by the chainsaw :cool:

http://www.scottbanbury.com/plungingbasin01.jpg

I did rest the grinder on my 12" tablesaw while I worked with it but I don't have any pictures of that--you'll just have to believe that I have one :D

BTW, here's a pic of the latest old iron restoration in my shop . . .

http://www.scottbanbury.com/grizzlyrestoration.jpg

It's a used/returned G5049 6"/12" variable speed combo that Grizzly through in with the rest of my tools whenb I cleaned out their shop here in Memphis. It sat around in my carport for almost 6 years before I finally cleaned, painted, lubed, tuned and plugged it in last week.

Sweet, ain't she? :cool:

[Dev Emch]

:D Not to compete with Dev but here's my trinity of wood shaping tools for this week (and I've got pictures):

http://www.scottbanbury.com/grizzlyrestoration.jpg

It's a used/returned G5049 6"/12" variable speed combo that Grizzly through in with the rest of my tools whenb I cleaned out their shop here in Memphis. It sat around in my carport for almost 6 years before I finally cleaned, painted, lubed, tuned and plugged it in last week.

Sweet, ain't she? :cool:

I have already posted photos of my shaper and as I recall, there is a photo of a tenoner floating about in the SMC files I have posted. I just got back from working on some more items on my tenoner and I am almost ready to fire up the old girl again. So hang on, the beastie is enroute to swamp the picture cops.:D

Dev's trinity is as much about approach as it is about tools. And I have included two modern tools to illustrate this. The multi router and the router table. I have yet to find a router based replacement for the moulder. That monster is in a world all its own and we are all better off not getting involved!

But regarding your pictures. I am more interested in the bandsaw. Would that be a 30 or 36 inch Yates american bandsaw by any chance? How about some photos of the lower base assembly. I have been looking for a complete example of this beast for a while. Based on the head design, this is an older model than the snowflakes. Most likely a narrow foot. I am very much interested here.

[Dev Emch]

Lesson two. The trinity is a guide for knowing what to do. It can almost apply to any set of tools. For example, hand tools used to shape wood such as planes can also be grouped into this grouping. For coping work, you have planes with low angles and skew blades. Examples even include an undercutting coping plane designed only for end grain. Planes like the LN 073 are tenon planes. On the other hand you have planes like hollows and rounds which are designed for the moulding cuts. They dont do as well on end grain but they work great on long grain cuts. Then you have bench planes which sorta sit in the middle. Like the shaper who also sits in the middle. End grain specific planes frequently carry shear angle as well which is not needed on moulding cuts. That is why tenoner tooling is shear angled and moulder tooling is often not. Router tables inhabit that middle position so you will see many router bits today made with shear angle. You can use shear angle on moulding cuts but it excels on end grain cuts. Shear angle also makes grinding conventional knives harder and since its benefit in moulding cuts is questionable, its not worth it to do so.

Here is a photo of an oliver 125-D tenoner. This one is slightly newer by about two or three years to mine but is dead spot on identical down to the tilt table and upgraded 2 HP Louis Allis motors.

[Dev Emch]

I suppose that my concern is a bit more fundamental than simply asking for pictures. Many of our members and visitors are beginners in this adventure and I think that advocating or appearing to suggest only commercial equipment will adequately address the needs of shaping wood is a disservice to these folks. Until the advent of the industrial revolution all furniture was made by hand and using human powered tools and continues to be held as the "state of the art" by collectors and conservators. I think there are many ways to shape wood and none are by default the best or only way. I hope we all keep in mind that we can influence our newer and less experienced brethern and that we focus in providing lively conversation, share our experience but, also keep an open mind.

I agree! And I will do you one better. Years ago when I was but a beginner too, I was fascinated by how the pros did rail and stile work. I got some solutions but never anything concrete. Then I went to the woodworking shows and saw the start of the router revolution. Over many years, I have seen the woodworking shows become almost dominated by router this and router that. For many woodworkers, the router, its table and its collection of Norm special bits is the only way they know how to do something. When your only tool is a hammer, its funny that all problems resemble a nail.

Some have already asked why the horizontal router table or flip up router table is not popular. Well, its because the masses are not familar with the concepts of the trinity. If you understand the fundamental base principle of the trinity and forget about the heavy iron it may superfically represent, then you will see that horizontal router tables are indeed represented on the end grain cut portion of the trinity triangle. They can be extremely useful for cutting tenons and floating mortise and tenon joinery. They become even more useful if they are guided as in the case of the multi router and some of its home made brethern we have seen represented here and elsewhere. I have even seen some articles on home made router tables with adjustable horizontal router mounts in FWW magaine.

So the root lesson is to understand where you are on the triangle and then to select your tooling of choice accordingly.

[Scott Banbury]

Y'know I'm just razzin' ya, Dev ;)

And makin' a little more sport of the pic-policin' :p

Personally, I'm just terribly jealous that you have bigger iron than me and want to see some photo-evidence that its all bein' put to good use :rolleyes:

The big green behemoth (almost all my tools are green) is actually an American. I believe it was poured in 1926 or '27.

Though it's seen some heavy abuse--first in the public schools and later in a pallet shop--it's never been broken and the orginal 7.5 horse motor still purrs like a kitten (big Lion kitten, that is).

It's undoubtedly the most used machine in my shop. I use it to cut out all my parts from rough random prior to face joint, plane, edge joint, rip and edge joint. I also use it to resaw and cut cheeks on tenons. A couple thousand feet of WRC goes across it every year for architectural brackets and tail cuts.

This is a 7' long 8"x12" going across it . . .
http://www.scottbanbury.com/bigbracket01.jpg

To become this (what architects dream of :rolleyes: ) . . .

http://www.scottbanbury.com/bigbracket02.jpg

[Dev Emch]

Y'know I'm just razzin' ya, Dev ;)

And makin' a little more sport of the pic-policin' :p

Personally, I'm just terribly jealous that you have bigger iron than me and want to see some photo-evidence that its all bein' put to good use :rolleyes:

The big green behemoth (almost all my tools are green) is actually an American. I believe it was poured in 1926 or '27.

Though it's seen some heavy abuse--first in the public schools and later in a pallet shop--it's never been broken and the orginal 7.5 horse motor still purrs like a kitten (big Lion kitten, that is).

It's undoubtedly the most used machine in my shop. I use it to cut out all my parts from rough random prior to face joint, plane, edge joint, rip and edge joint. I also use it to resaw and cut cheeks on tenons. A couple thousand feet of WRC goes across it every year for architectural brackets and tail cuts.

This is a 7' long 8"x12" going across it . . .
http://www.scottbanbury.com/bigbracket01.jpg

To become this (what architects dream of :rolleyes: ) . . .

http://www.scottbanbury.com/bigbracket02.jpg

This is bizzaro! That is a yates-american narrow foot. And based on the size of motor, its 36 in right? I will bet you that my old yates project machine came about from a merger between yates and american to form yates-american and the design carried through until the snowflakes showed up.

I really need some photos of the lower front of the machine. To see how it was guarded. I may need to make a few serious metal parts here. Mine is in very sorry shape right now and I consider it more a castings kit than a complete saw. Mine is also a 30 in making the motor a bit smaller. But its identical down to the body holes in the back and the motor attach flange.

[tod evans]

i`ll comment on the moulder leg of this "trinity" most productive cabinet shops that i`ve worked at or been in run at least one 5 head moulder and a gang rip to feed it. the moulder is used to run every board that comes into the shop, some are s4s at various dimensions for panels, face frames and cornice stock. all door sticking is run full length and slightly fat(13/16). crown, bed mould, beading, fluting and reiding, scribe, ect. are all run through the moulder in lengths and stored for later use. these machines are not practical for a hobbiest but if a fellow wants to compete in the cabinet industry a moulder and its support systems are just about manditory. .02 tod

[Dev Emch]

i`ll comment on the moulder leg of this "trinity" most productive cabinet shops that i`ve worked at or been in run at least one 5 head moulder and a gang rip to feed it. the moulder is used to run every board that comes into the shop, some are s4s at various dimensions for panels, face frames and cornice stock. all door sticking is run full length and slightly fat(13/16). crown, bed mould, beading, fluting and reiding, scribe, ect. are all run through the moulder in lengths and stored for later use. these machines are not practicle for a hobbiest but if a fellow wants to compete in the cabinet industry a moulder and its support systems are just about manditory. .02 tod

I would tend to agree here. For the hobbyist, I like the logosol moulder/planer. It has four heads. One top head and one bottom head which are more planer like and then two side heads on 30 mm spindles. Cast iron work is metal planed. Its about the size of a small planer.

But when it comes down to serious moulders, your looking at several thousand pounds of iron and the newer ones like wadkin, scmi and weinig can cost in excess of $100,000 new. Even used weinigs bring in serious money although I would tend to favor a wadkin in the newer used market. In the old iron arena, you had mattison and vonnegut which later became diel. Both of these are known as push feed moulders. The next stick always helped push the last stick out. Often you saw stange profiles hanging on the wall. These were the push sticks made from scrap wood used to get the last item out of the moulder. New moulders are pull feed and this is no longer done.

Moulders need a complete and balanced diet in order to work. You will need lots of lumber. LOTS! Then you need profile grinders to maintain and sharpen knives or make new knives. Then, of course, you need a rip saw. I almost bought a rust bucket mattison 202 for fify bucks a couple of weeks ago. But its 4 feet wide and 6 feet long. I NEED A NEW SHOP SPACE! Moulders can chew lumber so fast that you need to rip blank stock like its going out of style to keep the moulder happy. And dialing in a moulder is much harder than other classical machines. Lots of thing to set up and adjust. For example, if your not paying attention to feed rollers, etc. your final result may come out wavy and not straight.

My biggest issue with moulders is the power draw. My shop can run most stuff but its still limited due to phase conversion. Even a smaller vonnegut can have some serious power draw. A small vonnegut may have 10 or 15 HP motors for the top and buttom cutters, 5 to 7.5 HP motors for the two side cutters and then the feedworks motor which can be as much as 10 or 15 HP on some smaller moulders. So you may need as much as 40 to 70 horsepower of combined capacity when this beastie is running! I could probably get away with running 40 to 50 HP but not much more and then the lights may be flickering or browning out.

Moulders come in various sizes. The smaller ones like the XL or the oliver 202 are 4 by 2 or 4 by 6 inches max. Good for smaller profiles. And thier footprint is pretty good. I have seen a poulsan that is an XL on steriods and I liked it quite a bit. These are all 4 head moulders. When you get into five head moulders, things get a bit more complex.

The following photo is a photo of a vonnegut V-8 which is one of my favorate moulders. Hopefully I can get the owner of this beastie to upgrade to some more modern version so I can relieve him of this hunk of scrap metal.:D Photo courtesty of owner and OWWM. The name vonnegut is related to the author Kurt Vonnegut. Kurt's family used to own vonnegut and he himself worked there as a youngster.