rail and stile door question

[Rob Blaustein]

Just checking before buying some wood for rail and stile Shaker-style doors for a vanity. I thought I'd use solid walnut for rails and stiles and walnut veneered ply for the panels. Is 3/4" the typical thickness for the rails/stiles, and 1/4" for the ply panels (note: these are not raised panels)? So if I wanted to keep it relatively simple, I would center a 1/4" groove in the rails and stiles--is that right?

Do people ever use 1/2" thick ply for the panels in non-raised panel doors? I guess that would mean that the inside face of the door is flush, so instead of grooves in the rails/stiles, the panel would essentially fit into a 1/2" rabbet. Is that done? I'm sure all this is discussed in my books at home, but I'm at work and may not stop off before buying some wood (typical last minute planning here).

[Jim Becker]

"Typical" thickness is design dependent, but I think you'll find that most of the commercial and hobbyist build cabinets will have 3/4" thick rails and stiles. 1/4" veneer ply for the flat panels is just fine. Simple groove and tongue construction is the table-saw equivalent of a cope and stick joint cut by a router table or shaper and will work fine. Location of the groove is design/preference dependent. You can center it or move it forward/back, depending on how much reveal you want between the rails/stiles and the panel.

[Chris Fite]

I would center a 1/4" groove in the rails and stiles-
That will work fine. I do that all the time. Of course, the plywood is not exacly 1/4".

[Barry Beech]

Just checking before buying some wood for rail and stile Shaker-style doors for a vanity. I thought I'd use solid walnut for rails and stiles and walnut veneered ply for the panels. Is 3/4" the typical thickness for the rails/stiles, and 1/4" for the ply panels (note: these are not raised panels)? So if I wanted to keep it relatively simple, I would center a 1/4" groove in the rails and stiles--is that right?

Not centered, A little lower that centered. You will need to run some test pieces to get it set to the proper depth. The thickness is really determined by the size of the doors, but all mine have been 3/4in. The panels need to fit into a 1/4" groove on my rail and stile set.


Do people ever use 1/2" thick ply for the panels in non-raised panel doors? I guess that would mean that the inside face of the door is flush, so instead of grooves in the rails/stiles, the panel would essentially fit into a 1/2" rabbet. Is that done? I'm sure all this is discussed in my books at home, but I'm at work and may not stop off before buying some wood (typical last minute planning here).

Somebody else can answer this.

Make sure that you have a sled to cut the ends of the stiles. You cannot hold them and make a safe cut.

Barry

[Charles McCracken]

Rob,

3/4" for the frame is common. the panels vary. 1/4" is probably the most used but it will likely be around 7/32" actual thickness. If you choose to use 1/2" ply I recommend that you make a 1/4" groove in the frame and rabbet the edge of the ply to make a 1/4" tongue for the groove. The panel could then be recessed in the front and flush in the back. Also, we make an adjustable tongue and groove bit set (99-036) that was designed for Shaker doors.

[Quinn McCarthy]

Ready for 1 more option?

What I usually do for a shaker look panel is I use a 1/2" solid wood panel and run it through the panel cutter. It does not cut to it's full depth because the panel is not 5/8 or 3/4" thick. Then I assemble the door with the panel in backwards. Flat on front and small profile on back. You could rabbit the panel as well as use a panel raising bit. The problem I have with a 1/4" plywood panel is that the doors seem like they don't have any weight to them and they seem a little cheezy(IMHO). Also since 1/4" plywood is not 1/4" then you have to get a special plywood thickness cutter for the middle cut on your profile you will have to put something in the void between the wood and the 1/4" panel.

I hope that helps.

[Bill Lewis]

I always thought that "real" traditional shaker doors were really raised panels. It's just that they put the raised panel facing the back side of the door. This gives the door strength and weight.

Frankly I don't like cabinet doors with 1/4" ply rattling around in the frame. This is just my opinion. Obviously you can and should build whatever you like, or the budget allows. Like Charles suggested, 1/2" may be a good compromise.

[Rob Blaustein]

Rob,

If you choose to use 1/2" ply I recommend that you make a 1/4" groove in the frame and rabbet the edge of the ply to make a 1/4" tongue for the groove. The panel could then be recessed in the front and flush in the back.
Thanks for the guick replies. Charles--Are you saying--referring to my picture (a cross section through the panel viewed from above)--to use the method shown on the bottom, rather than on top? Or something different. In the lower option, would you worry about wood movement of the rail revealing the a bigger gap compared to what you'd see with the top method?
32545

[Charles McCracken]

Rob,

Here's what I meant:

http://charlesandkim.com/ShakerPanel.jpg

[Tom Saurer]

I have made a bunch of doors using 1/4 inch plywood centered in a 3/4 stock. It works fine, but the door is lacking in heft. It seems a little weak, which can be a bigger deal if making large doors.

I would try to make the doors using 1/2 and then rabbet it in, like Bill and Charles suggested.

[Joe Chritz]

If you have resaw capability I would use the 1/2in panels flipped backward. I recently built the doors below using that method. I did it to add weight and substance to the doors.

Currently I am planning a kitchen for the in-(out)laws and it will most likely use 1/4" mdf core oak plywood for a similiar door style. They are tossed up between a cove raised panel or a flat panel currently.

The current American Woodworker has a good article on doing panel doors with only a 1/8" slot cutter bit. I preferred the slight chamfer on mine so I bought a set of stile and rail cutters with a 20 degree bevel.

One big advantage of the 1/4 plywood is no wood movement so it can be fully glued in adding strength to the door.

Joe

[Rob Blaustein]

Rob,

Here's what I meant:

http://charlesandkim.com/ShakerPanel.jpg

Ah, yes--I misread your post. You did say a groove in the rail. Thanks for clarifying. I tend to agree with those who've said that 1/4" might be a bit thin. The door won't be particulary big (18" wide x 28" high) but the added heft might make it feel more substantial. I'll try making a version using some extra plywood I have around.

Now I see what Bill means by putting in a raised panel backwards. I guess it jazzes up the inside a bit compared to the above pic.

When making a door like this, using a mix of ply (panels) and solid wood (rails and stiles) do you glue the panel in, or do you need to worry about wood movement in the rails/stiles and let it float using those spaceballs things I've seen mentioned?

[Rob Blaustein]

Joe, I hadn't seen your post when I posted. Beautiful job on those doors. So your panels are solid wood then? I hadn't really planned to do that, but I guess I could, though I've never resawn anything so that part might be a challenge.

[Larry Browning]

Another option is to glue together 2 1/4" ply panels back to back. that way you have the 2 "good" sides. And since they really aren't 1/4" anyway the thickness is something like .420 or so. The trick is to find enough heavy stuff to set on top of the panel while the glue drys. You can then cut a centered groove the exact thickness of the glued up panel in the rail & stile. The added thickness adds weight and the 1/8 to 3/16 inset on the rail & stile looks real nice as well. I have done this on some mission style doors with good success.

Larry

[John Russell]

I'm also interested in the issue of gluing a 1/2 inch panel (rabbet and slot as suggested by Charles) onto the rails and stiles. It seems as if there would be wood movement issues to deal with. Is there another method to attach the panel?

[Charles McCracken]

John,

I have glued plywood panels in doors of this construction and had great success. The only movement to affect it is in the length of the rails and that is very minimal. To allow for this I just glued the center area on all four sides.

[Steve Clardy]

Just a note. Using 1/4"ply, use a 7/32" bit.
They make rail and stile bits sized for ply panels.

[Rob Blaustein]

I've been working with some 3/4" birch veneer ply at HD (I believe Norwood is the mfgr) and by golly it really is 3/4" thick. So when is plywood undersized and when is it not? I just read that last question and realized how much I opened myself to the sort of answer I would supply (when it's 3/4", it's 3/4"...). But you get the idea.

Also--Charles M., why are you not concerned with movement along the width of the rails and styles--shouldn't that be more pronounced than changes in length? Does it have to do with how the rails and stiles are joined/glued?

[J.R. Rutter]

The rails will expand/contract slightly with the seasons or ambient conditions. I've seen extreme examples where the wood was very dry when assembled, then sat at humid construction site before installation. Every door had rails that were expanded out past the ends of the stiles by at least 1/32".

When I make ply panel doors, I either use 3/8" ply and rabbit the panels to fit the groove, as Charles suggested, or use undersized cutter with 1/4" ply. Then I glue the sides only to let the rails epand inwards as outwards. I use 3/8" ply instead of 1/2" so that the ~1/16" reveal around the rabbit is less obvious, and the assembled door frame can be sanded without fear of going through the veneer.

Having said all that, most shaker doors that I make have a "reverse raised panel of solid wood...

[Brad Hume]

Another argument against using a single 1/4" think panel is that most (but not all) of the 1/4" stuff on the market is A-4 grade, which could make the inside of your doors really ugly. The -4 allows the back side to have voids, bark and other nasties in the face ply.

1/2" ply is usually A-2, which looks decent, or you can do what Larry suggested and laminate two 1/4" pieces.

As to how exactly how thick plywood is going to be, you just have to wait until you get your hands on it to find out. I broke out my brand new Freud under-sized plywood dado bit the other day, only to find out the plywood I had was, in fact, a full 3/4" thick...

--Brad

[Charles McCracken]

Also--Charles M., why are you not concerned with movement along the width of the rails and styles--shouldn't that be more pronounced than changes in length? Does it have to do with how the rails and stiles are joined/glued? The change in width of the rails and stiles is definitely more pronounced than the change in the length but the field where the panel is located is not affected by this. This field only changes based on the changes in length of the frame members.

[Jim Becker]

Relative to Charles' drawing, this is somewhat like what I normally do with solid panels, but I use a "Shaker" bit that provides a slight reveal on the back with about a 20 degree "bevel". Here's an example:

[J.R. Rutter]

The change in width of the rails and stiles is definitely more pronounced than the change in the length but the field where the panel is located is not affected by this. This field only changes based on the changes in length of the frame members.

Just a minor nit pick, but the rails are moving across the width, so depending where they are fastened to the stiles, this movement will either be outwards, inwards, or both. That's just part of cross-grain construction. Does it matter, probably not, except for unusual circumstances like I described above.

I've also seen mitered doors move such that the outside dimensions stay constant, constrained by the outer corner of the miter, while the inside grew slightly larger, with the inside miter joint opening up as the wood dried. Like I said, these may be extremes, and must not be all that important in practice.

[Rob Blaustein]

Relative to Charles' drawing, this is somewhat like what I normally do with solid panels, but I use a "Shaker" bit that provides a slight reveal on the back with about a 20 degree "bevel". Here's an example:

I'm guessing I couldn't do that with plywood panels since that reveal would be plywood without its veneer and it wouldn't look so good. So it sounds like if I went with 1/2" ply I would use Charles's approach. I'm leaning towards 1/2" over say 3/8" because I will likely use some 1/2" for other parts and it saves me buying a full sheet of expensive plywood just for a few pieces. I'm also not sure that the place I get me plywood carries 3/8" walnut veneer--I think they have 3/4, 1/2, 1/4.

This has been a very helpful thread--thanks again to all who have contributed.

[Charles McCracken]

JR,

That's a good point but IME with the Shaker door I have found that for 2" wide stock that is grooved then assembled with stub tenons the potential of warping rails is more prevalent than the change in width.

[Jim Becker]

I'm guessing I couldn't do that with plywood panels since that reveal would be plywood without its veneer and it wouldn't look so good.
Agree totally. I just wanted to add this to the thread as it's relevant for "Shaker" style doors. The cutter I happen to have for this is from Lee Valley (green and bought long ago), but many of the bit manufacturers have similar available...I'm seeing it more and more in various catalogs. My kitchen cabinets were made this way. Since they are painted (sprayed acrylic), the panels are all made with 1/2" MDF. The little angled reveal is a nice touch when you open the door and leaves more of the panel mass than a "standard" reverse raised panel would.

But that brings up another point...using Charles' picture again as a reference: It is a good idea to size the panel so that you still have a little bit of a gap between the rails/stiles and the panel once the construction is glued when you are using solid stock for your rails and stiles...it accommodates a little wood movement and space balls or the equivalent will keep the panel centered. This is still ok with plywood...just color the rebate before assembly to provide a suitable look. That could be black to emphasize the shadow line or a dye that colors the exposed (non-veneered) areas similar to the veneer on the panel. You must do this before assembly to avoid a lot of angst!

[J.R. Rutter]

Yes - 2" to 2-1/4" - I agree - no problem.

I tend to do more 3" and even 4" R&S doors, and my most popular miter door style is 3-1/2" frame, so I have to plan for more movement.

[Jake Helmboldt]

So when is plywood undersized and when is it not? I

I can't answer that specifically, but I am making kitchen cabinet doors exactly in the manner you first suggested, but with maple. 3/4" thick w/ 1/4" plywood panels. I got A2 so it is finished both sides. Per many other's suggestions I chose to glue the panels in for both strength and to prevent rattling. Hopefully it won't create a problem. As for "heft" they seem adequate.

But, the thickness is an issue. I bought an undersized plywood bit (15/64 which is the standard) and found it to be too big. Using a dial caliper I found the ply was actually 11/64 I believe. So I found a Freud 5mm bit at a local dealer and used that with good results. I would advise that you measure what you actually get before running out an buying a bit only to find something else would be better.