Sliding table saw rant

[lou sansone]

good afternoon ww's
I went to take a look at a decent Italian brand slider yesterday ( slider quest ) and was really disappointed. I am not going to publish the name, because it will only mask the issue. here are the details

1. ~ $15000 - 10' slider - over 5 hp
2. 1996 vintage
3. excellent slider design - ( balls in v type grooves)
4. separate scoring motor
5. 12" blade and riving knife


here is the disappointment

Plastic trunnions !!!!! the trunnion slide that is mounted to the base cabinet was made from a filled plastic!! you got to be kidding. where is the cast iron? Does anyone out there have a saw with plastic trunnions?

how can this be?

Lou

[Ed Kowaski]

A bit disturbing indeed. I once rebuilt a Jap outboard motor, crank shaft main bearing were plastic. eeeekkkkk yet these engines have a great reputation. Who'd a thought ceramic cutting tools would munch metal all day long.

What I wonder is if "they" still use plastic trunnions 10 years later?

[Dev Emch]

good afternoon ww's
I went to take a look at a decent Italian brand slider yesterday ( slider quest ) and was really disappointed. I am not going to publish the name, because it will only mask the issue. here are the details

1. ~ $15000 - 10' slider - over 5 hp
2. 1996 vintage
3. excellent slider design - ( balls in v type grooves)
4. separate scoring motor
5. 12" blade and riving knife


here is the disappointment

Plastic trunnions !!!!! the trunnion slide that is mounted to the base cabinet was made from a filled plastic!! you got to be kidding. where is the cast iron? Does anyone out there have a saw with plastic trunnions?

how can this be?

Lou
Yes, I believe the company is called Mattel. You need to look up the accessory section under Ken and Barbie.

[Dev Emch]

Lou...
These are new saws and cast iron costs money. My furnace pump went out on me. Actually I have four of them. One for each zone. That is how they did things many many many moons ago. At any rate, one pump lasted about 35 years and then I had to rebuild it. The center section was replaced with the new aluminum injection design which is published as FASTER, BETTER and CHEAPER. Ever hear those three words. Each time I hear this ditty, I am running for the woods! The new junk is squeezed together and has no serviceable features. You just toss it and hand a credit card number to the dude at the front desk. Two Hundred Fifty dollars and tax later, the pump is sorta running. The shaft alignment is not that good and its balance stinks. In ten years, I have replaced that pesky little center stage no less than three times. That is about 3 to 4 years of life expectancy. What happened to the cast iron pig with gaskets, access plates, bearing boss recesses, actual stuffing boxes, etc.? In looking over the old design, the main cast iron body is rather complex. Sand cast with cores followed up with some pretty trick machine shop work. The main bearing in the stuffing box area was bronze bearing material. The main shaft which sealed in this area was cratered up with cavitation and rust pitting so its shot. I could flame spray this or just hog a new one out of stainless steel. The bronze bearing and seal are turned from marine bearing bronze which I can buy in small amounts from MSC or McMaster Carr.

So right now, that new fancy injection moulded center section is serving me quite well..... as a door stop for my basement! The quality of the machines goes down and the price goes up. And its not just sliders that are being affected here. Granted it took me two years to work out some of the problems with my tenoner but the sliding table has been a dream slider since the get go. I would love to have that sliding table on a table saw. I can run the whole table with a mere push of my pinky yet I could not lift that table without a trip to the hospital. How can they do this? Its old iron magic!

[Chuck Wintle]

good afternoon ww's
I went to take a look at a decent Italian brand slider yesterday ( slider quest ) and was really disappointed. I am not going to publish the name, because it will only mask the issue. here are the details

1. ~ $15000 - 10' slider - over 5 hp
2. 1996 vintage
3. excellent slider design - ( balls in v type grooves)
4. separate scoring motor
5. 12" blade and riving knife


here is the disappointment

Plastic trunnions !!!!! the trunnion slide that is mounted to the base cabinet was made from a filled plastic!! you got to be kidding. where is the cast iron? Does anyone out there have a saw with plastic trunnions?

how can this be?

Lou
For me it's always upsetting when companies cheapen the product and rest on their laurels, much like Maytag did several years ago with their laundrey machines. On the hopeful side maybe the Italian company in question did testing and found plastic to be acceptable for the job?

[Jim Becker]

While I can appreciate the concern...which may very well be valid...it's also important to remember that there are many composite materials available today that are more durable than traditional metals in certain applications and may also have other desirable properties. As Charles mentioned, one would hope that the saw manufacturer has thoroughly tested the design and materials they have used and found them to be able to meet the expectations for the machine.

But if you are not comfortable with the machine for any reason...don't buy it! There are certainly other choices.

[Reg Mitchell]

Hey lou
Need some of these for that saw
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/male_man/myrtelwoodtbltop144.jpg
now those are some trunions......and a pretty green too :D .
The opretive word is acceptable.....didn't say anything about good.:eek:

[lou sansone]

While I can appreciate the concern...which may very well be valid...it's also important to remember that there are many composite materials available today that are more durable than traditional metals in certain applications and may also have other desirable properties. As Charles mentioned, one would hope that the saw manufacturer has thoroughly tested the design and materials they have used and found them to be able to meet the expectations for the machine.

But if you are not comfortable with the machine for any reason...don't buy it! There are certainly other choices.

hi jim
don't worry, I am not going to buy it. Filled plastics can be pretty durable, but still not as strong as steel or cast iron. The bigger problem that I saw was how flimsy they really looked. they were quite small and had what looked like 2 1/4"-20 bolts holding them to the top of the machine base. I should have taken a couple of photos for you all to see. I think most of you would have run away, but maybe I am just an over kill engineer.

lou

[David Fried]

Lou,

I was in Sears last week and spotted a tablesaw with a plastic table! It was the only tablesaw on display that hadn't rusted! I didn't get within 10 feet so I don't know it the trunions were plastic too.:rolleyes:

I realize that part of engineering is taking costs into consideration but given how much that saw must have been new, translated into 2006 dollars, add 8 zeros on the end to convert to lira and you would think they had a lot lea-way. Perhaps the europeans use them differently making that a reasonable choice?

Now if you could channel the McGiever part of Stu and the machinist part of Dev you could use those plastic trunions as cores to cast metal ones! Of course, making Meehanite in your microwave does void it's warrentee!

Keep hunting and I'm sure you'll find a great saw yet.

Dave Fried

[Ed Kowaski]

A kind soul informed me that the term "jap" is derogatory and some may find it offensive. He is absolutely correct. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, none was intended, it's purely lazy typing on my part. :(

In fact it was a Suzuki which I can't spell, *most* 3 letter words I get right.

Ed

[Dev Emch]

Lou,

I was in Sears last week and spotted a tablesaw with a plastic table! It was the only tablesaw on display that hadn't rusted! I didn't get within 10 feet so I don't know it the trunions were plastic too.:rolleyes:

I realize that part of engineering is taking costs into consideration but given how much that saw must have been new, translated into 2006 dollars, add 8 zeros on the end to convert to lira and you would think they had a lot lea-way. Perhaps the europeans use them differently making that a reasonable choice?

Now if you could channel the McGiever part of Stu and the machinist part of Dev you could use those plastic trunions as cores to cast metal ones! Of course, making Meehanite in your microwave does void it's warrentee!

Keep hunting and I'm sure you'll find a great saw yet.

Dave Fried

NOW THAT IS A KLYSTRON!!!!!!! A 1.67 GigiWatt Klystron capable of induction heating iron to its metling point. Home Improvement would definintely approve!

[David Less]

A guess thats what happens when all the steel and cast iron is going to China.

david

[Phil Maddox]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. First off, let me state that if I designed ww'ing tools, I would cast a huge chunk of cast iron and mill the whole thing out of it. The more the merrier.

BUT - On a $15k saw, don't you think that there could be a reason for using plastic? It is almost impossible to believe that they chose to save money on one of the most important structural elements of a saw in this price range. There are saws that cost less than $1k that have lots of cast iron in them.

Granted, I can't think of a decent reason to use plastic unless it absorbs vibration better or something but one of you machine guys should be able to come up with a plausible reason for this.

Or someone could call the manufacturer and ask.

There HAS to be a reason other than saving a $, doesn't it?;)

Phil

[David Less]

I was looking at a highend Euro Slider Combo(not in person) actually thinking about one. It had only a 12" planer and started at $16,000. With some standard options the cost easily went up to around $20,000. I don't know how anyone can justify this cost. Some say it is for a professional shop. Well if that is the case, accounting 101 will tell you that you will not be able to produce much product on a one man machine. I love well engineered machinery and maybe would change my mind if I saw one in person but at the present time am very courious who their customer base or demographic would be. Don't typical American wood workers view a 12" planer as lunch box?, the bigger the better? The 16" would easily set you back $22,000.

My $.02

David

[tod evans]

lou, to answer your question, i`ve never seen or driven a saw with plastic trunions. i`d have run too. .02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

Lou,
While it does not sound right to me there has to be a reason.... now just for kicks I wonder if one was to use a saw like this without knowing would one really know the difference?? Just curious.

Dave,
From the prices you are talking about I pretty much know what brand you are talking about. If it is what I beleive it to be, than yes I agree whole heartily (and from first hand experience) those price premiums are not worth it one bit! In general European style machines are more expensive than what used to the American counterparts but then again today the only real American machines (NorthField, Oliver..) in new condition are through the roof $$ wise. It will only make sense if your extremely rich or have a buisness that warrants it. Now in defense of a 12" combo machine, while I do agree the 12" planer is limiting, you can not compare it to a lunchbox planer. Add things like a 4.8hp motor, cast iron beds, Tersa Heads and it is a whole "nother ball game.

European combo machines, good ones, are not cheap but you need to compare them to comporable quality single machines to really get a fare apple to apply deal. No current American product can even come close to a format style sliding saw. A sliding table on a shaper can open up a whole new world of uses and SAFETY! A 12" jointer is incredible and a horizontal slot mortiser works so effortlessy and accuratley that it is scary.

Within the brands, as you know, there are different levels of quality. The brand you mentioned along with the one I am fond of ;) all produce great but from to different frames of thought. One is simplicity the other is engineer everything. Is that engineering needed? no way it will not do any better for you other than making your wallet thinner. Now some people will like some of those things and that is fine but if someone trys to tell you because I have this brand instead of that one (only assuming they are in the same quality level) my work is much better, they are flat out lying. Eventually you need to stop blaming your machine and take responsibilty for your work yourself. I am not talking about a machine that can not cut square or can not repeatably crosscut or plane to a correct setting or ..... I am talking about gadgets, gizmos, extras ......

In my search for machines for my small shop I looked for accurate, well engineered machines that would produce accurately and repeatably. I also wanted to be able to adjust my machines myself and not have to rely on a tech to come out to repare something for me. I have achieved all of things in what I have.....now the only thing I have to blame is myself

[Chris Barton]

I think Paul made some very good points here. Being the owner of a euro slider combo (not a format saw) that many think came from the "wrong side of the tracks," I find that few people really understand these machines. My machine represents the lower end of the pricing spectrum and I bought it because I wanted it not, because I needed it which, really brings up the unaddressed question. When folks are looking at these machines are they wanting them because they have a demonstrable need for the capacity and functionallity or, simply because they want big and expensive? I think of this in the same way I think of automobiles sometimes. I have lots of neighbors that drive big SUVs and monster pickups and these vehicles have never seen off road conditions or carried anything heaver than groceries. But, these people believe they "need" these vehicles. I seem to hear similar stories in our forums of people that want a huge table saw or band saw but, really don't need them for their size and capability but, because they equate size, weight, iron content, and costs to quality and precision.

[Bill Simmeth]

Lou, sorry for your disappointment. I think running was the right choice. I guess this is why God made old iron!

Ed, you didn't offend me. Sorry to hear the PC Police pulled you over. Happens way too much these days.

[Jim Becker]

II don't know how anyone can justify this cost.
Maybe justification isn't necessary. Why do I have two hybrid vehicles in my driveway? (Well, only one right now as Dr SWMBO took one of the girls to a museum outing) The fuel savings doesn't justify the extra cost (about $10 on the Highlander) so it's certainly not ROI! It's more of a philosophical decision...supporting super low emissions and conserving fuel at the same time. (And they are very comfortable cars, too) People do this with vehicles, homes, electronics, etc. Sometimes "I like that" wins out in the purchasing decision.

Same goes for tools. I don't "need" what I own or plan on owning someday. I just like buying quality and capability. I also like to put my investment in tools towards designs that I think are better and safer. That's why my next (and last) table saw will be a Euro slider...actually with justification this time: I'm going to do all the cabinets for our future home addition and even with the cost of the saw upgrade, we will come out many thousands ahead, leaving more money available for very high efficiency building. ;)

[lou sansone]

lots of good points folks

IRT "there has to be a reason" and "maybe they did lots of testing and plastic is just fine" thoughts..... All I can say is that there are good designs in production as well as poor designs in production - take the yugo for example. BTW there were several things about this slider ( BTW just to calm all the tense nerves down it was not a mini max) that were just plain poor designs and sort of flimsy any way you could look at it.

Case in point. the tilt handwheel had a little $2 bearing steadying it in the cabinet frame. come on guys.. a sears push mower has a better design than that.. will it work , yea it worked ( squeak squeak squeak wobble wobble wobble ). For 15 grand it should have a decent ball bearing or some type of combo thrust / radial bearing there. What I am saying is that even the lowley cabinet saw was much more substantial than this guy. there is something wrong here! When I turn the crank of a machine that costs as much as a car it should have a smooth feel to it.

lou

[Paul Canaris]

I don't know how anyone can justify this cost.


When anyone we know gets a really nice vehicle like a Corvette or puts thousands into rebuilding a classic roadster, everyone lines up to take a turn driving it. No one says boy is that dumb you could have bought a neon and saved a ton of money. Either will get you just as well from a to b. So what’s the problem with spending it instead on a WW'ing tool if you can afford it? :rolleyes:

And yes there are differences between the various makes that are more than cosmetic; otherwise Martin would be out of business. ;)

But I do agree, that when all is said and done a dedicated woodworker can turn out quality work whether it is with a Sears’s bench top or a fully loaded slider. For me it came down to ease of usage, flexibility of features and durability. No regrets even though I still have the loan payments to deal with.:)

[tod evans]

lou, there`s a reason that scmi sells more woodworking equipment than any other manufacturer in the world. all those consumers can`t be wrong. sure there are companies that make equipment that is better engineered but how much better? square is square and a motor works or it doesn`t. in the world of production sliders there`s altendorf, martin and scmi in order of price. is one more accurate than the other? even after 15-20 yrs they all cut square and turn on when you push the button. sure other companies make sliders but industry by and large sticks to the three big boys for a reason...02 tod

[Bart Leetch]

Thats the problem Lou what they consider a real car now days costs from $25,000 to $30,000 sounds like the saw you were looking at might fall somewhere between a Yugo & a new VW bug:D . I am sure that there is some plastic on the new bug somewhere.:eek:

I think I'll keep my 1953 Unisaw. Not a format slider but real iron never the less.

I'd like to recommend ieSpell for those that have problems spelling accuratley, accurately. Thats ok I'm not a very good speller either but ieSpell makes me look like a much better speller than I am. It also helps correct typing mistakes which show up as poor spelling.

It can be found here. http://www.iespell.com/

[Paul B. Cresti]

The plastic trunion just seems "odd". There has to have been some reasoning for it ..... now in cycling these days most of the higher end racing bikes are all carbon fiber frames and some that still do use Aluminum have portions of their frames made out of carbon fiber, like the rear triangle of the frame. You can also obtain many parts out of carbon fiber like: cranks, handle bars, seat posts.... The "reasoning" for the carbon fiber is the damping affect it provides between the rider and the road. In most cases a all carbon fiber bike is lighter than a Alum bike but not necessarily. The new cabon frames are also said to be much stiffer along the lines of the applied force. So.... I wonder if this was an attempt of experimentation to see if this technology would work in a ww'g machine??? Just as companies like Martin switched from an all cast iron machine to now a steel + concrete + steel composite cabinet construction maybe this was an attempt to see if a new material would work elsewhere. Either way it would take a long time for it to be accepted...

[lou sansone]

lou, there`s a reason that scmi sells more woodworking equipment than any other manufacturer in the world. all those consumers can`t be wrong. sure there are companies that make equipment that is better engineered but how much better? square is square and a motor works or it doesn`t. in the world of production sliders there`s altendorf, martin and scmi in order of price. is one more accurate than the other? even after 15-20 yrs they all cut square and turn on when you push the button. sure other companies make sliders but industry by and large sticks to the three big boys for a reason...02 tod

hi tod... I agree with you .. I did not look at an scmi with plastic trunions. This was another decent italian company.... I really like the scmi line

lou

[Dev Emch]

I think Paul made some very good points here. Being the owner of a euro slider combo (not a format saw) that many think came from the "wrong side of the tracks," I find that few people really understand these machines. My machine represents the lower end of the pricing spectrum and I bought it because I wanted it not, because I needed it which, really brings up the unaddressed question. When folks are looking at these machines are they wanting them because they have a demonstrable need for the capacity and functionallity or, simply because they want big and expensive? I think of this in the same way I think of automobiles sometimes. I have lots of neighbors that drive big SUVs and monster pickups and these vehicles have never seen off road conditions or carried anything heaver than groceries. But, these people believe they "need" these vehicles. I seem to hear similar stories in our forums of people that want a huge table saw or band saw but, really don't need them for their size and capability but, because they equate size, weight, iron content, and costs to quality and precision.

Chris...
Thank goodness for these folks with the SUVs. There are others like myself who have tested the design safety margins on my pick up truck. Now that Dodge is using some el-cheapo drive line parts in place of Dana, I have to wait until your neigbors total one of those big urban pacaderms to find new parts for me. The less abused the better! Same applies to woodworking machines. Let someone else buy it new, get into trouble paying the bills and then we pick up the machines at auction. My 2001 Maka came out of an auto repo yard and it was virtually never used and was in better shape than many new machines. I got it for less than 1/4 the new price. But dealers will try to shave every penny off of you and then some. Esp. used dealers! So I tend to avoid those guys all together anymore. The housewife with the mondo SUV is the best place to find stuff for sale cheap!