Befuddled with electricity......

[Barry Stratton]

Well, the big white truck rolled up and dropped off a box with a Jet Mini lathe VS about 3 weeks earlier than scheduled.

I unboxed, admired, set it up in the garage, plugged it in where I normally plug in my Ridgid 3650 tablesaw, hit the switch and "POP", threw the breaker. Scratched my head, plugged into a different receptacle and "POP" again. Still befuddled, I plugged it in outside.. you guessed it, "POP" again. Next, after some colorful language, I lugged it into the house, plugged it in and.......purred like a kitten.

All the garage circuits are GFCI's. The one in the house where it actually spun round and round is not. Do these things not like GFCI's????? Am I going to have to wire in another circuit to use this puppy? The tablesaw, router, scrollsaw, drill press, etc.... have no problems in the garage. Just the new baby lathe. Any thoughts????? And turning in the living room is, unfortunately, not going to be an option!

I'm still waiting for a starter tool set from Harbor Freight and a grinder/jig from Woodcraft. I'll probably find something suitable, and safe, to use til they show up. Will post a picture or two once I solve this electrical "issue" and actually butcher something into a contorted round shape......

So, any thoughts/idea's/input would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Gary Max]

Makes no sence to me---- your table saw should pull more amps on start up than the lathe????????????????

[Jim Dunn]

Just a thought but why not dedicate a nongroundfault circuit for the lathe. Some motors don't like ground fault protection. It could be that the motor needs a separate ground?

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

Barry,

Your can just change the plug or plugs in the garage. If every plug in your garage is an actual gfi outlet with the little re-set button then you will need to change each outlet on that circuit. Most of the homes built around here have the first plug on the circuit as an actual gfci outlet which make all downstream outlets gfci, even though they are regular outlets. If this is the case, you can simply change the one outlet at the beginning of the circuit and the rest will all be non-gfci.

The best way to check which outlets are on the same circuit would be to plug in something that makes noise, such as a radio and then turn off the breakers one at a time until it goes off. Then leave it off and move your radio to the next nearest outlet. If it does not work, continue on until you find one that does. The one that does is on a different circuit.

Some folks might try to tell you that GFCIs are required by code in a garage. This is true, except when the circuit has a dedicated purpose, such as a refrigerator or woodworking tools. This is based on the National Electric Code, whcih I would assume is the code in your area but may not be. I am a custom home builder in Texas and I study and know the codes around here quite well so I do have experience with what I just told you.

Hope that helps some.

[Bill Stevener]

Hi Barry,
Just a wild thought, considering where you live, generally quite cold. If the lathe just came in from the cold and placed in a warm environment, the motor could have some excessive condensation that has accumulated inside the same, therefore the GFI maybe sensing the same and tripping.
If you have not already, leave it in the house for several days to dry up, and give it a try again.

Might be worth a try, before changing anything.

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Dave Mcintire]

Before you go much further you better check that the problem is not what the popping circuit breaker may be trying to tell you - ie: the new machine has a ground in the motor or controls. In that case its dangerous to use it.

[Barry Stratton]

Thanks for all the input. I am amazed how fast a person gets quality help here!!!!!

All the plugs in the garage are "normal plugs", but the circuit breakers in the box are GFCI (GFI?). The outside plug is an actual GFCI plug. The garage has a 10' ceiling, with the framing sitting on top of 5 courses of concrete blacks - probably why everything is hooked up to a GFCI breaker. I could run a dedicated line up the ceiling and around to maintain some distance from the ground but would obviously prefer not to..... might have to though.....

I understand the cold and condensation problem, but I can rule that one out. While had a two week cool spell (-5 to -25) recently, its been 35 to 40 the past several days and looks like spring about 2 months early!

Finally, being electricity challenged, how do I check the baby lathe wiring for a grounding problem? Pop the hood and look for bare wire touching metal where is shouldn't??

Thanks again to ALL of you, I really appreciate it.

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

In this case, replace the gfci breaker in the box with a non-gfci breaker.

I have read numerous times on different forums that EVS lathes have problems with tripping GFCI breakers. My new Nova DVR even says in the manual to not use it on a gfi circuit. It is very easy to change the breaker and it is actually preferable to not use GFCI for things such as tools.

If you had a grounding problem, more than likely, it would have also tripped the breaker inside the house. It think that is a pretty slim posibility.

On the GFCI and EVS lathes, like I said, I am just going by what I have read on numerous thread in different forums. As a matter of fact, there is a thread on another forum about a fellow having problems with a Jet 1642 on a GFCI circuit. He changed to non-GFCI and the problem went away.

[Travis Stinson]

Yup, change to a non GFI breaker for the lathe. The contoller for the dc motor will fool a GFI outlet into thinking there's a ground fault.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Just for the record.....my Jet Mini VS is running on a circuit with GFCI on it.......?

[John Hart]

Just for the record.....my Jet Mini VS is running on a circuit with GFCI on it.......?

It might be a different rating Ken. I don't know the exact configuration of the speed controller or the motor on the Jet, but if it what I think it is, there will be a tremendous in-rush current at switch-on that is too long of a duration for the breaker to ignore. In-Rush is the normal condition of a motor at start-up where it is essentially a lump of iron with electricity running through it. The current is extremely high during this time and drops off once the motor begins to move. Typically, in-rush only lasts 100-250 milliseconds, but it does replicate a dead short to ground and if the circuit breaker is sensitive to that time period, it will trip.

This is really just a guess though, since I don't know the specifications of either the breaker or the motor circuit.

I just felt like typing while waiting for my ice cream!:D

[Randy Meijer]

IMO, you would be making a "BIG" mistake by removing the GFCI in your garage without further research....particularly if the code in your city requires them. Couple of possible problems........... If you have fire and the fire marshall determines the wiring is a problem, your insurance might not pay off. If your house is up for sale and inspected, the sale might be delayed until the wiring is brought up to code. Remove the GFCI at the box and you lose "ALL" protection at every receptacle in your garage. GFCIs are required for a reason......personally, I would not be comfortable without that protection.

Of more concern is the possibility that there is a problem with your lathe and simply removing the GFCIs will only mask; but not fix the problem. Seems to me that your first course of action is a call or email to JET and see what they have to say.

You should also give some thought to the possibility that the GFCI is faulty......doesn't happen often; but it does happen.

[Dave Fifield]

Oh, never mind - I didn't see the bit where you said you dragged it into the house and it works fine there.....I was going to ask if the motor was free to turn, belts okay etc.

I have an air compressor that does something like this once in a while. It seems to depend on the phase of the ac voltage at the exact moment that I turn it on. About 9 times out of 10, it just powers up normally - the 10th time, it trips a 30A breaker.

Dave

[Andy Fox]

I'm not an electrician, nor do I play one in online forums. :rolleyes: But here's what I would do:

Keep your garage GFCI protected. It could be that your GFCI breaker is wearing out and needs replaced, or maybe has a loose connection at the terminals. Either of these conditions is a safety and fire hazard. GFCIs often have false trips near the end of their life, and maybe your lathe is the only thing pushing it to its limits as John described. The GFCI receptacle in my garage tripped a lot right before it went out in a blaze of flames. Fortunately the flames only lasted a few seconds until the GFCI tripped permanently. :eek: Also, I've heard that some older GFCIs are just more prone to false trips than newer ones with updated circuitry.

Check for a short in the lathe with a meter ($10 or so) set to measure Ohms or continuity. With the lathe unplugged, measure resistance between each of the flat blades and the round ground prong. If either blade has less than infinite resistance (or has continuity) with the ground prong, there's a short. Narrow blade is the hot side, and wide blade is the neutral side.

You might want to pick up one of those plug-in circuit analyzers to make sure your house receptacles are wired correctly, but it's unlikely that more than one is wired wrong.

Edit: Follow Dave's good advice before diving into the electrical stuff.

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

Another thought...if you are really concerned about having GFCI outlets in your woodworking shop, then you could always replace the GFCI breaker with a regular breaker and then find the second outlet in the circuit and install a GFCI outlet there. That would make the first outlet non-GFCI and the rest would be GFCI protected I believe.

Take a look over in the Woodnet.org turning forum for a fellow that had the exact same problem with his 1642. He contacted Jet and they told hime that the GFCI was the problem,that is was totally normal, and that they do not recommend running the machine on a GFCI.

Once again, code DOES NOT require GFCI outlets for dedicated circuits in a garage, at least not the National Electrical Code. You will NOT be at risk from the fire marshall but you may have to change it back when you move out and sell the house, mainly because you will be converting the woodshop back to a garage.

[John Hart]

I've been thinking about this all night. Please tell me again...What's wrong with Turning in the living room?:confused: :D

[Curt Harms]

I've been thinking about this all night. Please tell me again...What's wrong with Turning in the living room?:confused: :D

As long as your SWMBO doesn't acquire one of Ken's "Salmon Bonkers" and ignores the "Salmon" part:eek:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Hey Curt! You just keeping making fun of my salmon bonkers! Someday I'll get skilled enough to get them down to toothpick size! Then we'll see who's laughing!

[Curt Harms]

Hey Curt! You just keeping making fun of my salmon bonkers! Someday I'll get skilled enough to get them down to toothpick size! Then we'll see who's laughing!

but whacha gonna bonk wit dat?:D

[Dave Mcintire]

The GFI breaker trips at typically somewhere around 4 milliamps GROUND current (not load current) - thats .004 amps. A non GFI breaker trips somewhere around its load current rating (printed on the breaker handle), supposedly a little above that after a certain amount of time. You can look up all the specs for the breakers and quantify that better, however, the cheap breakers for your house panel are very poorly calibrated so theres no use getting picky about when its supposed to trip. The non GFI breaker is actually intended to protect the wire - not the load or you. The GFI breaker is supposed to protect you somewhat (from ground faults) and the wire.
What everybody said about the GFI breaker being sensitive to variable speed drives is true as these drives produce a lot of harmonics that the breaker may see erroneously as ground current. Some GFIs are more sensitive than others and calibration on these may be suspect also (do you think Home Depot does calibration?). It may also just be bad.
The lathe you purchased new could have a defect allowing a few milliamps ground current and tripping the breaker, (remember its new - your the first person running it) or it could be some of the other causes discussed above. It takes only a few milliamps through your heart to produce electrocution. I'll look up the number if anyone wants to know. Wouldn't it be prudent to check the lathe out a little further before you rip out the GFI breaker or run it on a non GFI circuit?

Dave McIntire
Registered Professional Electrical Engineer - Virginia

[Barry Stratton]

Wow, this place never sleeps!!! More great advice.

I got ahold of a buddy of a buddy who is a licensed electric install type dude this morning. He suggested checking the lathe and exisiting garage wiring for any problems - takes a few minutes - although he doubts we will find any. Then we will install a new breaker in the box, hang some conduit, pull some wire, and install a big bank of new NON GFI plugs solely for the power tools/work lights in the 1/2 of the garage that I use as a shop. This is a great solution to me......

Evryone who replied and offered advice - THANKS!

And John - ain't nothing wrong with turning in the living room - just not an option in this house........ :eek:

Ken - you just keep turning those salmon bonkers. I'm sure I can find a market for you up here if you want! Or, if you pay the freight, I could send you a frozen one or two to see if they'll hold up to use!