40% Hidden cost

[Ken Garlock]

Maybe it is just me or the people I know, but does everyone experience an additional 40% spent when they buy a new major first-time tool/machine :confused:

I was talking with Perry Schmidt about his Grizzly cabinet saw, and he mentioned that it costed an additional $400 for accessories to get the saw really ready to use.

Last week I took delivery on a 5hp Ingersoll Rand air compressor, and already I am looking at about $350 in regulators, filters, ball valve, drain cocks, and associated goodies.(On order from McMaster & Carr) That doesn't even count the 15 to 20 10ft. sticks of 1/2 in. copper and fittings needed to "wire" the shop and garage. Sweating the copper will give me a chance to tryout my Milwaukee 1000 deg. heat gun. There is another example, buy a heat gun and then add another $30 for verious deflector nozzles.

Like we used to say at work, no body told me this when I hired in :rolleyes:

SGC=2

Inquiring minds want to know :)

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

Now that's a first for me Ken................I never heard of sweating Copper with a Heat Gun! In these parts, we use Gas. I know what you mean about the add on costs of new toys. It seems like there is always something, doesn't it? But, the upside is that you get the maximum benefit if you outfit your equipment from the get go. Like plumbing your air line in, and adding the regulation, filtering, drain, and other accessories. That is the first rate way to do things, and if you don't get them done at first, they seem to get put off and never done. You remind me of me! :D

[Derek Arita]

Isn't that exactly what "they" are hoping for! Buy the machine at a great price, then spend, spend, spend on the accessories. That's where they make their money. Just like car dealers...they will discount the car if they believe you are going to use them for service and repairs.

[Ron Meadows]

I guess I fall into the minority here. I had my griz cabinet saw up and cutting project stuff with only the addition of a power cord end and a Forrest Woodworker II blade. I used it for almost 2 years in this configuration and all was fine. I've gotten rather dust conscience her lately and added an Excalibur overarm guard, but that's about it. Same for my jointer, bandsaw, drill press, etc. I've made some jigs for most of them, but haven't blown an additional 50% on store bought stuff. Just haven't found the need.

Ron

[Jim Becker]

I'll use that "marketing" word again. It's all too common these days for some products to be offered at what looks like rock bottom prices as compared to other brands of the same type of product--that develops a lot of excitement with prospective buyers, some of whom forget to do their homework. Does it really compare to the other brands/models you are looking at relative to included features, etc.?

Your cabinet saw example is a good one on this, but I consider that a little different than the compressor. The former is more of a tactic to make a product look more attractive...it's up to each of use to do careful comparisons of the "real" price before we buy, including the cost of transportation. The latter, due to it's nature will have a different set of "stuff" required for a full installation in any given shop so having those items a la carte does make more sense. We still need to consider them...but then again, the excitement of picking up a new "whatever" sometimes masks our common sense to think!

Of course, there is that natural law that states, "Anything you buy will require additional investment to put it to good use." So all of the above just doesn't matter one iota!! You can't win this one... :D

[Doug Jones]

Not to jump off topic but,,, its not just the toys we buy that this applies to. Look at going to an event (sports, music, movies, etc.) The ticket price is just the beginning, parking, hotel, camping, food, drinks (for Kevin I assume this would fall under "BEER") shirts, souvenier, and so on.

Have you registered a child for grade or middle school? After you pay the very costly registration fee, within the first week of school the child will bring home a note saying to send $X.XX for this or that.

The list goes on and on. For the last example try getting married,,,,,you'll be paying for the extras for a long time.

[Ken Garlock]

Now that's a first for me Ken................I never heard of sweating Copper with a Heat Gun! In these parts, we use Gas. :D

Kevin, regarding the heat gun to solder with, I got the idea from the Milwaukee website when I was looking for the gun. They even sell a U-shaped nozzle to cup the heat around the pipe for soldering. I will give it a try, if it works - great, if not I will have other uses for the gun. I was not keen on the idea of open flame in the attic of the shop, and then around painted walls, when sweating the pipes together. It is a slick gun. It has a digital thermostat which allows you to set the temp just where you want it. Since the solder melts in the 450-500F area, and the gun will go up to 1050F, I will give it a try.

[Scott Coffelt]

I think it really depends on what you call useable. My 1023 needed nothing new for me to use it other than a plug. I already had a blade so I didn't need a new one. I wonder what he felt was required that would be $400.

Also, it sounds like most of the time it is self induced. Example; Air compressor leading to piping. A azir hose would get the job done, but self induced says lets pipe it.

I would be more concerned if the manufactures made it where you had to buy their products. The other way is our own need to expand on what we want. I think we're all guilty, I know I am. When I built the cyclone, I decided I needed to lower the drop ceiling, which meant I had to have those T-8 through lights instead of the cheap $7 shop lights. Glad I did though cause the lights better and no more humming sounds.

Keep me informed on the heat gun thing, I wonder how well it will work. I use a torch, quick and painless.

[Perry Schmidt]

I think it really depends on what you call useable. My 1023 needed nothing new for me to use it other than a plug. I already had a blade so I didn't need a new one. I wonder what he felt was required that would be $400.

I can answer that:

Good Saw blade: $100 (Forrest).
Mobile Base: $90 (Got the Delta base...)
Biesemeyer splitter: $125
Motor Cover/couple of zero clearance inserts: Approx: $90

So did I NEED any of this to be up and running?? No. But practically speaking the first 3 weren't an option for me. I wanted a GOOD blade (which a lot of you already had a Forrest - I didn't), it had to be mobile b/c I have a very small shop, and a splitter I would actually use was very important to me.

So needed?? No. But safe and useful - for me, yes. And there are a lot more options that I didn't mention - dado blades, feather boards, push sticks, board buddies, etc. A lot of people have these items in a well stocked shop, or if you've been woodworking for a long time. But if you are starting from zero or have been doing this for a short time, then I was just pointing out that it's not a bad idea to factor in options in the cost.

Again, it depends on what you find important and what you need. If I had the blade beforehand, didn't care about the splitter and had a big shop, and didn't care about dust, yea I could have gotten the stock 1023 and not had to spend any more $$$ on options. But I think in many cases that's not practicle for a lot of people - myself included.

And - like Ken pointed out - I think that goes for most of your larger tools. You rarely get by with just the cost of the tool itself. Dust collectors is another good example - how much is ducting?? :)

Anyway, was just trying to help Ken factor in the extras when buying his saw.

Perry

[John Schreiber]

I don't think it's so much a matter of the hidden costs being unknown when you make the purchase. It's that when you are justifying the costs to yourself (and SWMBO), it's so easy to base it on a lowball estimate. Then you have to come up with more to make the tool useful.

I was ready to buy my first router the other day. I could swing the ~250.00 and I could make most of the jigs, but when I made a list of the bits, bushings and bearings I needed I reallized I'd be out another $200.00. Then some wood, some hardware and some electrics for a router table and fence and I was way over my budget.

Hand tools give a lot of satisfaction, but they take a lot more time, especially if you don't have them all and don't have the best.

[Bob Oswin]

That doesn't even count the 15 to 20 10ft. sticks of 1/2 in. copper and fittings needed to "wire" the shop and garage.

Inquiring minds want to know :)

I don't know if this is of any help to you Ken but, you might wish to consider a hose reel ( retractable ceiling mounted) to take care of a lot of the extra copper pipe. I have one next to my bench and it gives me about a 25 foot radius for operation and skoots out of the way when I don't need it. (Count on another $70 -80, bucks) - But less pipe.


Bob

[Ken Garlock]

I don't know if this is of any help to you Ken but, you might wish to consider a hose reel ( retractable ceiling mounted) to take care of a lot of the extra copper pipe. I have one next to my bench and it gives me about a 25 foot radius for operation and skoots out of the way when I don't need it. (Count on another $70 -80, bucks) - But less pipe.


Bob

Yes Bob, that is also a good alternative. I have looked at the hose reels at Nothern Tool and found many of them, ranging from about $50 way up to about $400. I haven't driven the stick in the ground on the subject yet.

Current thinking is to run horizontal lines, at about 4 ft off the floor, along two walls of the shop. I thought I would put 3 quick connect hose attachments on each wall.

In the garage I figured on a quick connect on the wall on each side of the garage door. That would give me easy coverage of the garage without using the ceiling mounted reel.

However,,,,, you do make the ceiling reel sound good. :)

[Steve Jenkins]

Ken, I'd reccomend running the line in the corner of the wall and ceiling and making drops at the places you want them. A horizontal run at 4' wouild be pretty susceptible to damage. When you make your drops put a t about 6" from the bottom and a ball valve on the bottom. Come off the side of the t for your quick connect. That will give you a built in moisture trap and an easy way to drain it. You still need the filter/moisture trap also. I run 3/4 for my main lines then reduce at point of use. Gives you more volume if you are using an air hog so you don't get as much pressure drop. Steve

[Ken Garlock]

I had already planned for drain cocks at several vertical runs, but having them as you suggest is a more complete solution. Also, the runs along the ceiling removes a vulnerability that I had not considered. As I said above, I am still still working toward a solution. I have ordered a coalescing filter to pick out any oil coming through from the compressor, and a particle filter. I really wish there was a cheap water filter unit. Also included are several regulators, gauges, and drain cocks.

I considered using 3/4" copper, but since the outlet from the compressor is only 1/2" I didn't see the advantage to 3/4". What am I missing? Currently I think I will just get the 10' sticks of "L" copper from the borg and run with that.

Oh yes, I have a 24" braided flexible pipe on order to make the connect between the compressor tank and the filters which I will mount on the wall behind the compressor. I picked up an air conditioning "whip", a 6 ' length of 3 conductor #10 in conduit to run between the compressor and the wall outlet. I am waiting on an order with Grainger's to ship that will get me 4 vibration reduction mounts for the compressor tank.

NOw most of the activity is hurry up and wait on shipments.

[Dan Stuewe]

I think the 3/4" pipe is strictly for added volume. You'll have your compressor's tank plus all the copper pipe filled with compressed air. With 3/4" pipe you'll have about 3 cubic inches more volume per foot of pipe.

[Steve Jenkins]

using 3/4 vs 1/2 pipe will give you more pressure at the end of the run if you are demanding a large volume of air. the smaller the line the more pressure drop you get. It may be a moot point depending on the length of the run and your air requirements. Steve

[Bob Oswin]

using 3/4 vs 1/2 pipe will give you more pressure at the end of the run if you are demanding a large volume of air. the smaller the line the more pressure drop you get. It may be a moot point depending on the length of the run and your air requirements. Steve
Think of it (the pipe) as an auxiliary air tank.
The bigger the pipe the more reserve air you have before you trip the pressure switch on your compressor. I doubt that the diameter will make much difference to a hobbyist, particularly given the short runs you anticipate.
If you find your compressor starting to often ( I mean getting hot!),
add an auxiliary tank somewhere. They are cheap and handy outside the shop on occasion.
I think you are overbuilding your stuff but hey, that's half the fun isn't it?

Bob