Another MM16 Quandary (not Electrical) - SOLVED !!

[Doug Shepard]

Anybody else run into this on their MM16? Is this normal?

I've been doing a fair amount of bevel cuts lately and to tilt the table down I've been removing the whole lower guide to get it out of the way. The first time I tilted I ran into a problem with the guide interfering with the chassis when I tried to slide it down all the way so I just removed it. I finally took some time today figuring where the problem is. The post for mounting the lower guide assembly to the slotted mounting bar is hitting the frame unless it's pulled forward somewhat. The bar and guides dont seem to stay parallel with the frame throughout it's travel. When lowered down, with the post able to clear the frame,the whole setup seems to be tilted and there's only about 1/32" or so clearance between the back of the post and the frame. The guide setup is drastically different with respect to the blade from what was need when at the height closest to the table. The guide position on the blade With respect to the gullets is maybe almost 3/8" too far back if you set them up in the lowest position then slide the guide all the way up. So any cuts requiring an occasional table tilt also require a complete lower guide re-setup when you try to lower the guide to clear the table.

[Dean Lapinel]

Doug,

Have you contacted Mini Max?

[Brian Hale]

Can you grind off enough to make it work?

I haven't tilted the table on my MM16 yet but i was disappointed in the lower guide design. Using a single bolt in a slotted bar to maintain position and height for the entire lower guide assembly is a real engineering boo boo.

"So any cuts requiring an occasional table tilt also require a complete lower guide re-setup when you try to lower the guide to clear the table."

This very true and they need to remedy it.

Brian :)

[Cecil Arnold]

Doug, I have the older 14 1/4" resaw capacity MM16 and from looking at your pictures I can't tell what you are hitting when you tilt the table, however I just went to the shop and snapped a couple of pics of the lower bearings on my saw. I don't have a problem tilting, just having to reset the (lowered) bearings before I tilt the table.

[Doug Shepard]

I did email Erik Loza @ MM, but don't expect to hear anything back til Monday. So far (knock on wood) at least I haven't had anymore mysterious instances of the saw not turning on still after the switch replacement.
Cecil - your guides look to be the same as mine - the black post to the right of the thrust bearing is hitting on the backside just to the right of the U-shaped cutout channel. I can get it to clear but not without tilting the whole setup toward your camera viewpoint as I lower it, and that's what throws the whole setup way off. I can't really grind it shorter as the whole length of the post is needed for adjustment when it's all the way down - at least with the current engineering faux pas. Sounds like both you and Brian have resigned yourself to needing to do the whole guide re-setup when moving them up/down. So at least I know this isn't a problem with my particular saw. I guess I really expected something better on a saw of this caliber.

[Dean Lapinel]

Doug,

Any fix for this problem yet? I was told that there was but since I don't own an mm16 yet I don't know how to explain it.

[Phil Winn]

I have the same problem with the "newer" 4.8hp MM16......I dread
reading posts on this unit......electrical issues, customer service?, this current issue, some vibration issues, the bottom door hitting back wheel when removing larger blades issue......hmmmmmmm. If someone hears
from MM about a fix, please let me know!

Phil

PhilWinnDMD@Fastmail.fm

[Bill Webber]

The home grinder seems to be involved in a lot of MiniMax bandsaw fixes! :mad:

[Paul B. Cresti]

Guys I do not see the problem here. The MM saws are the only ones (as far as I know in the saws I have used) that allow the lower blade guide to be positioned directly under the table, I sure could not do that with my Agazzani. So what if you have to lower the guide and readjust it when you tilt the table, tilting the table is not a regular occurance and if you are then just deal with. You should be readjusting you guide for every blade and guide adjustment anyway.

[Gary Herrmann]

I noticed this when I was cleaning and setting up my MM16. I haven't had to tilt yet, but I figure when I do, I'll just make an incline table to put on top.

I also still haven't ground out that little part of the telescoping sleeve that prevents you from getting the rear guide right up to the blade when using 1/4" or narrower. Its always something...

[tod evans]

here`s a novel idea...if a person is tilting the table on a regular basis why not place the guides in the lowered position and leave them there? .02 tod

[Doug Shepard]

Doug,

Any fix for this problem yet? I was told that there was but since I don't own an mm16 yet I don't know how to explain it.

I'm working on a home-brew fix that involves rare-earth magnets, wood, some voodoo incantations, and a Farrah Fawcett centerfold. Still waiting for the mags to show up. I'll let you know how it works.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

here`s a novel idea...if a person is tilting the table on a regular basis why not place the guides in the lowered position and leave them there? .02 tod

Tod, The reason why this wouldn't be good is that the lower guides would be further away from the table and would not support the blade as well. That's the one thing good about the bearings being so close to the underside of the table: great blade support.

[Clint Malone]

Umm, he said "if a person is tilting the table on a regular basis"...meaning that you would have to give up the better support in order to allow for the tilting. If you are not tilting the table frequently, then by all means put it in the top position.

[tod evans]

Tod, The reason why this wouldn't be good is that the lower guides would be further away from the table and would not support the blade as well. That's the one thing good about the bearings being so close to the underside of the table: great blade support.

alan, most of the larger saws i`ve driven deliberately place the lower guide assembly away from the table to permit easy tilting,and don`t give you the option of moving them close as the centuro saws do....02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

Guys I wanted to add a couple of more things to our discussions here and these are just my opinions so take them as you will.

I see these heavy duty industrial bandsaws, like the MM's, as ripping and resawing beasts. They are no nonsense machines built to run all day. They are not scroll saws for intricate work. If you want to do anything other than cambriole (sp?) legs and long sweeping or smooth curves I would have to say these saws are not really designed for that. Yes they can use 1/4" blades but IMHO you should not use anything smaller than a 1/2" blade on these saws. If you want to also do those real tight curves then either get yourself a scroll saw or one of those big "jig saws", a 14 bandsaw ;) . Now tilting the table is an additonal feature that some of these saws provide. Some, like the Agazzani, allow for this by setting the lower guides much lower. The MM's allow the lower guides to be set right underneath the table to provide the max suppport to the blades. You will for approx 98% of the time have your table in the flat position where the blade suport is most critical. It does not matter to me if I have to readjust the lower guide to tilt the table because (very infrequent) when I do, I can then once again set that guide right under the table. To me, that is a very good compromise I can deal with.

One more note on industrial qaulity machines as I made the same mistake intially also. When I was a serious hobbiest I use to equate "quality" machines with fit and finish and how flat this part was or did i have to adjust this or that..... and that was usually my sole reason for determining my feelings on machines. When I started purchasing "industrial machines" I made the assumption that they were already set and good to go, after all I did spend $$$$ on them right? Well I was wrong. In most cases they are set up pretty darn close but sometimes they are not but that is not a bad thing as I have found out, it is on purpose. Remember that these machines are designed with the intent to go into a production and/or professional type evironment. The notion from the manufaturer is that the end user will set up the machine to his requirements and specs. Since these machines have that adjustment capabilties, will keep there settings and are made of heavy duty materials they will provide the production needed. The regular hobbiest machines are generally "as good as it gets" when you get your machine. They do not have the adjustment features, they are not manufactured with the same heavy duty materials and they will not last very long is a heavy use atmosphere.

So these industrial machines are a different animal and as many of us are able to "afford" them for one reason or another we assume them to be the same as our past machines...big mistake. If we wanted these machines to be "dialed in" to the Nth degree from the factory, I do not think anyone could ever afford them. Just my $1.25

[tod evans]

mornin` paul, fyi my mm16 is my "scroller" it has lived it`s life to date with a 1/4" blade i use it for 90% of my tight curves and repetative things like cutting radius segments. and it excells at cabriole legs:) .02 tod

[Brian Hale]

Paul makes some very good points here. These are industrial quality machines (at a reasonable price point) but may need some TLC to get them to work at their best. No big deal for us Creekers! :D

I'm confident none of us MM Owners feel we got a poor machine, rather some things could be improved upon to make a great machine even better. I sure the folks at Mini Max listen us.

For those of you looking for a bandsaw, look hard at the MM line and compare them to others on your list. I did and went with the MM16. No regrets.

Brian :)

[Gary Herrmann]

I've "scrolled" using my MM16 using a 1/4" blade with no problems. Nothing terribly delicate tho. Would a scroll saw have done a better job? Sure. But I don't have one and for the amount of times I'll do that kind of work, don't know that I need one.

[Butch Spears]

You Creekers Bring up a good point,I have a new mm16 ordered for the last 6 weeks it supposed to arrive to MiniMax office in Austin for me to pick up next week. Do I need to rethink or go ahead and pick it up? i feel we are never 100% happy with most things, But what are your thoughts? Rethink or pick up? Butch

[Brian Hale]

Pick Up!!!!!!!!!

[tod evans]

You Creekers Bring up a good point,I have a new mm16 ordered for the last 6 weeks it supposed to arrive to MiniMax office in Austin for me to pick up next week. Do I need to rethink or go ahead and pick it up? i feel we are never 100% happy with most things, But what are your thoughts? Rethink or pick up? Butch

butch, i probably own more minimax equipment than anyone on the forum and there`s a reason i do, it`s good stuff! the folks at minimax are good to work with......in the end it`s up to you where you spend your money but mine`s staying where it is....02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

Butch,
I, like Tod (I think he beat me by 2), own more than a decent amount of MM equipment in my shop. I do rely on this equipment to supply a fair share of my income, so I guess you can see where I stand on your decision. If I had my way I would own nothing but MM equipment in my shop (only two pieces left that are not: A DC and a combo belt/disc sander). This is not only because I truly believe there equipment is top notch, for me, but as a company they have gone out of their way for me everytime I needed them. It is nice to call someone, like my salesman, and be able to have a true conversation and not not feel like I am trying to be sold on something. Now I am sure that many people feel the same way about other machines or companies but once I find a place I can call "home" I am not straying.

[Dean Lapinel]

You guys are pretty convincing and obviously well informed folks.

Hey Butch...I was putting my order on hold...let's both get them things ordered.

Dean

[Butch Spears]

Tod & Paul, all my equipment is Powermatic,I have always tried to buy the best product not best price,I read ,asked and even visited the Minimax offices in Austin,Sam was very eager to answer any and all questions. The opinions seem to be as both of you state. I plan to pick mine up when it gets there,but I wanted to ask just the same because it is a big purchase but like my PM stuff it will last a lifetime. Thanks for your imput. Butch

[Doug Shepard]

You Creekers Bring up a good point,I have a new mm16 ordered for the last 6 weeks it supposed to arrive to MiniMax office in Austin for me to pick up next week. Do I need to rethink or go ahead and pick it up? i feel we are never 100% happy with most things, But what are your thoughts? Rethink or pick up? Butch

Despite my posting of a minor bug or two - PICK IT UP! It's miles ahead of my previous BS (14" Jet). I'm not sorry I bought it but that still doesn't stop me from posting with questions on problems or pointing out areas where I think they could have done better.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul makes some very good points here. These are industrial quality machines (at a reasonable price point) but may need some TLC to get them to work at their best. No big deal for us Creekers! :D

I'm confident none of us MM Owners feel we got a poor machine, rather some things could be improved upon to make a great machine even better. I sure the folks at Mini Max listen us.

For those of you looking for a bandsaw, look hard at the MM line and compare them to others on your list. I did and went with the MM16. No regrets.

Brian :)
Brian,
I am not sure if I made myself clear as I tend to ramble at times but..... do not get the idea that I was saying that these machines are a kit of parts! MM along with all the other industrial lines of machinery do not "come out of the box" all set up to go. Heck I could have spent $40k+ on my slider (ok well not I really) and it still would have required me to set it up and dial it in. Even then there may be a part missing or something that could have gone bad. Lets remember these are all machines and things WILL go wrong at one time or another. What you are paying for is the performance. On top of that most people (commercial shops) already know what they are buying and are familiar with these type of machines. Some of us are new to these machines so there will be a learning curve also. Like I said before, as we are able to "afford more" we are entering into a different class of machines and thus require a different mentality.

Oh one more thing...about the 1/4" blade on the MM16.... IMHO it is akin to driving a Lamborgini to go pick up your groceries or buying a real Hummer and using it to drive your kids to soccer practice. Yes it sure can use a 1/4" blade but did you really buy it do do scrolling? or was it to make veneer, resaw wood and rip anything you can through at it!

[Butch Spears]

Paul & Doug you are right,it is a commercial machine,I plan on spending 2 or 3 hours with Sam when I pick it up.He is going to shorten the learning curve. I then want to learn as much as I can when I set mine up . I am sure I will have several questions that I will need help on. I had to set all of my powermatic equipment up just from the manuals, mod66 TS,15" planer,8" jointer and 3 hp shaper,again that shortens the learning curve,but you know your equipment that way and I am looking forward to learning about themm16,Thanks again for everyones imput. Butch

[tod evans]

butch and dean, i don`t think you`ll have any regrets what-so-ever, this stuff is built to last in a commercial enviroment and i can`t see replacing what i own in my lifetime and i push my equipment hard.
paul, i really like driving the lamborgini (16) to the store,:) i use the peterbilt (28) for the tough stuff. .02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

butch and dean, i don`t think you`ll have any regrets what-so-ever, this stuff is built to last in a commercial enviroment and i can`t see replacing what i own in my lifetime and i push my equipment hard.
paul, i really like driving the lamborgini (16) to the store,:) i use the peterbilt (28) for the tough stuff. .02 tod

I know me too..... if I could afford the Lamborgini I would go out and pick up movie rentals with it ... and then use the Hummer to go to get the milk... you know how those parking lots at the foodstores can get :)

[Butch Spears]

Well my Lamborgini will be here next week for me to pick up in Austin a week from tomorrow. Butch

[Doug Shepard]

OK I guess I'm feeling pretty stooopid now and sorry if I caused anyone to question buying a MM16. I finally figured out what was wrong with my lower guide problem. I'm not missing any parts but they were definitely not installed in the correct arrangement. I had the parts in the same arrangement it came in when delivered and it never occured to me that it needed to be changed. From the infeed side of the table, the attaching scheme should be - Bolt, Small diam. washer, Slotted mounting bar, Large diam. washer, Spacer sleeve. Mine came delivered with both washers on the infeed side of the slotted mounting bar and I never thought to try rearranging it until this morning. I'm not sure why they'd pack it for shipping that way, but like the bolts for moving the brake pedal from it's shipping configuration there's no mention in the manual about needing to change it. I've looked at the manual since this issue came up, but the large diam. washer doesn't even appear in any of the pics and I can't seem to find it in any of the parts diagrams either. Otherwise I'd have probably figured this out long ago without posting this as a problem and stirring up a non-issue. The best pic in their online manual (http://www.minimax-usa.com/manuals/BANDSAWMANUALFINAL(1).pdf) is on page 11 and it doesn't show the washer behind the bar. The washer is quite a bit wider than the slotted mounting bar and would be real noticable. I just assumed they changed to a larger washer for the near side for some reason. I talked to MM yesterday afternoon and they suggested I just add another washer. That got me wondering a bit about the washer arrangement when I started looking at it again this morning. Anyway, the guides now move straight up and down (instead of drastically tilted), parallel with the saw frame, requiring very little (if any) guide re-setup between the extremes of travel.

[Dean Lapinel]

Thanks Doug,

Your topic was valuable for me. I decided to hold back a bit but then with the input of yours and other fine participants I became confident in the mm16 even if it had a flaw. This is even better news!

Now the race is on to see if Texas (Butch) beats out Idaho (me) in getting the new mm16.

Best-

Dean

[Butch Spears]

The Race is on ( Idaho Dean) or The ( Texas Butch ) But Dean I have an unfair Advantage, My mm16 is expected any day,it was held up by Port Authority to check the container. So by next Sat. I think mine will be in my shop, not set up ,but still here. I really hope you get yours tomorrow,you can set yours up and enjoy and I will be right behind you in a few Days. Enjoy and keep us posted. Butch

[Bob D.]

I too was on the fence concerning a MM16 purchase. With all the threads about switch problems and then this issue, I was beginning to think about the Laguna BS, but after reading all the owner's posts here that they wouldn't let these minor problems stop them from keeping or buying another, I think I will go ahead and place my order. Thanks all for the discussion, it was informative.

[Doug Shepard]

Bob/Butch/Dean
When you get your new saw, you'll probably find there's a allen bolt thru the brake pedal that needs to be removed, then the pedal lowered, then bolt re-installed. It's not mentioned anywhere in the setup instructions. I and a few others assumed we had brake mechanisms that were hung up and removed the lower wheel to get at the brake. Other than my prior bad electrical switch problem, every bug I've run into with the saw has had a simple answer IF you're working on it during MM customer service hours. MM's CS is great, but I think a lot fewer folks would need to rely on them if they just did a better job of providing thorough and up-to-date manuals. IMHO that's the only weak part of the package.

[Dick Latshaw]

if they just did a better job of providing thorough and up-to-date manuals. IMHO that's the only weak part of the package.
I with Doug 100% on this one. I'm on my way out to check the washers on my lower guide assembly.:mad:

[tod evans]

just look at the mm manuals a lessons in foreign (4) languages. :)

honestly though it would be a good idea for mm to put together english versions of their manuals directed at the hobbiest market since more hobbiest are getting into the professional grade of equipment. untill recently scm and centuro as companys did not target the "homeowner" market and took for granted that folks buying their machines allready knew how to tear one apart and put it back together. but given that mm is targeting the hobbiest as well as the small shops it would be wise to assemble a clear, detailed assembly manual. .02 tod

[Scott Welliver]

This is my first post at SMC... I received my MM16 on Friday 9/14 and wanted to add my experience to this thread.

I considered several saws in this class, eventually narrowing it down to the Laguna LT16HD and the Minimax MM16. It was a tough decision as each saw had some unique features that I liked better than the other. I finally went with the MM16, based on my perception of its slightly beefier build, the better guidepost, better dust collection, less "pushy" salespeople, and slightly lower price.

The saw is now setup, tuned, and I'm really happy with it. The cut with the included (cheap) blades is a bit rough, but that will be fixed when the Timberwolf blades arrive. I've already done some resawing and am amazed at the performance. It is a great saw.

But it did take some work to get here. I've experienced just about every problem already mentioned in this thread.

(1) No real damage during shipping (yay!), but there were some minor paint scuffs. When I mentioned that to Minimax, they said they would send me some touch-up paint.

(2) One of the black plastic plugs for the top of the saw was missing. Minimax said they would send a new one.

(3) Normal adjustments were needed. I suspect just about any large saw shipped cross country is going to need this. The 90 degree fence stop needed adjustment; the belt was a bit loose; and the guide post wasn't perfectly aligned. These were all easy adjustments.

(4) The fence wasn't 90 degrees to the table, and there isn't any way to adjust this. The bottom simply wasn't machined perpendicular to the face. Sam at Minimax said they would replace it, but I found it faster to spend an hour carefully filing and fitting until it sat flat and 90 degrees to the table. Then I added UHMW strips to the bottom so it would slide without scratching the table.

(5) The fence locking mechanism is just a screw that tightens against the fence rail. There are already some divits in the rail from my few days of setup and testing, and it will no doubt get worse over time. Not sure what the fix is for this. I may have to investigate replacement with Laguna's Driftmaster, if it will fit the MM16.

(6) The blade guides did not adjust freely. I first thought it was cosmoline, but when I took them apart I found a different problem. The outside of the guide is an aluminum barrel with internal threads. The guide bearing itself is mounted on a steel rod, which is threaded and has a knurled knob on the end. The threads on the steel rod were cut poorly -- the threads were rough, with chips and burrs. Again, MiniMax said they would replace them but I found it faster to spend 1-1/2 hours with a needle file and fine abrasive. I was able to clean up and smooth the threads, and the guides now adjust smoothly.

(7) I had the same problem others have reported with setting guides for a 1/4" blade. The forward position of the upper thrust bearing is limited by it hitting the blade guard. This essentially sets the maximum forward position for the "back" of a blade, and correlates roughly to the center of the tire. Try to track the back of a blade any further forward than the center of the tire, and the upper thrust bearing cannot reach it.

Meanwhile, the maximum rearward position of the lower Euro guides is also limited when the lower thrust bearing's locking knob hits the frame of the saw. This sets the rearmost position for the "gullet" of the blade, and correlates roughly to about 1/4" from the front of the tire. Try to track the gullet of a blade any further back on the tire, and the lower Euro guides cannot be moved back far enough to clear the teeth.

Now, if you've soaked all that in -- what this means is that there is exactly one place where you can track the blade, such that the back is just forward of the upper thrust bearing's most forward limit AND the gullet is just forward of the most rearward limit of the lower Euro guides. So it can be done, but it's really tricky because you have to get the tracking in just the right spot.

So using a dremel with a cutoff wheel, I cut out about 3/8" of the blade guard in front of the upper thrust bearing. This will allow tracking the 1/4" (or smaller) blade anywere on the front half of the tire, and still be able to reach the back of the blade with the upper thrust bearing.

(8) The mobility kit wheels interfere with opening the bottom door. The door hits the wheel at about 120 degrees open, yet you need to fully open the door to 180 degrees to get a 1" blade on/off. It's easy enough to screw down the leveling bolt a little to take weight off the wheel, then pull the spring clip and remove the wheel -- this probably takes about 30 seconds, after which the door can be opened fully. Nevertheless, it is a bit of a headache taking the wheel off and putting it back on. I don't really need to move the saw frequently, so I just took the wheels off and left them off. That's a good solution for me, but for someone who needs to move the saw each time it is used, this would be a pain.

All that said -- there is a lot more RIGHT with the saw than WRONG with it.

The table is perfectly flat, the throat plate opening is machined perfectly. Earlier complaints I read about the throat plate have been addressed with a new design. For electrical hookup, I was expecting the "pigtail" cord described in the manuals and in the Mini-Max videos, but was pleasantly surprised to find an electrical box mounted to the saw for connecting my cord.

It starts and runs smoother than a baby's backside. The wheel balance is perfect, and the motor is quiet and smooth. Tremendous power!

It was easy to level using the included leveling bolts. The guidepost and telescoping guard operate smoothly. The tension wheel is easy to use, and the tension spring looks like it could support a Mack truck.

The table is well balanced on the trunnions, and tilts easily and smoothly by hand. I had previously thought the LT16HD had an advantage here due to the rack/pinion table tilt, but a rack/pinion simply isn't needed with the MM16 table and trunnions.

The dust collection is excellent. I'd say something like 98% of the dust is carried away, with very slight amount following the blade into the lower cabinet and upper cabinet.

Fit and finish of doors, knobs, switches, and so forth is all first rate.

I am very happy with the saw now that it's tuned up. The major "design" issue I think MiniMax needs to address is the guide positioning. The upper thrust bearing should go further forward, and the lower guides should go further rearward.

Would I buy the saw again? Yes. Should the fence have been perpendicular, the guide threads smooth, and the saw able to use a 1/4" blade without trimming the blade guard? Absolutely. But on balance, the 2-3 hours I've spent fixing those things is a one-time expenditure, and I'll be using this saw for YEARS to come.

...Scott W

[Bruce Page]

Scott, great post and welcome to SMC.
I'm sure that the MM will give you many years of enjoyment.

Ps., I use a 1" Lennox Tri-Master on mine, it is a awesome blade.

[Howie French]

congrats ! it's a great saw.

regarding issues #7, did you try loosening the screw that attaches the lower blade guard to the guide assembly, then moving the blade guard forward. This should give you some more room.


Howie

[Scott Welliver]

regarding issues #7, did you try loosening the screw that attaches the lower blade guard to the guide assembly, then moving the blade guard forward. This should give you some more room. Howie
I did try that, and it helped some. But it also made the blade guard "bind" when raising it more than about half-way up. I decided the 15-20 minutes spent with the dremel was worthwhile!

[Scott Welliver]

Ps., I use a 1" Lennox Tri-Master on mine, it is a awesome blade.
I am looking to buy one of the carbide blades... I've seen a lot of discussion on the Tri-Master, the King Resaw, and (recently) the WoodMaster-CT. Still trying to decide. The price on the WoodMaster-CT is a lot less than the Tri-Master, so I'm leaning that direction right now. Anyone here used the WoodMaster-CT, and able to compare to the Tri-Master?

...Scott W

[Jim Becker]

The Woodmaster CT is a new offering, I believe...I will likely try it when my TriMaster eventually wears out...

[Bill Reed]

Scott,

You received your saw just a few days after I did. I had almost exactly the same experiences with my saw as you did, with one exception. There is no place that I can track a 1/4" blade and make it work. I have been working with the technical folks at Minimax, who recently ordered a 1/4" blade for their machine and discovered they have the same problem that you and I do. It is clear from this thread that this is a long-standing problem with this saw, and I'm surprised that Minimax was not aware of it. I guess everyone just fixes their saw by grinding off the blade guard, but I still don't know what to do about the lower guide. There is no way it will work in a lower position (like for a tilted table) with narrow blades running in the center of the wheels.

Thanks for your long and detailed post. I resonated with every word.

Bill

[Doug Shepard]

...
The table is perfectly flat, the throat plate opening is machined perfectly. Earlier complaints I read about the throat plate have been addressed with a new design.
...


Scott. Any chance you could take some pics of that new throat plate? Or is it just the machining on the opening that's improved? That's one area I'm still not satisfied with. I never brought that issue up with MM as it's usuable, but not totally flat. If there's a new design I might be interested in upgrading it.
Thanks for the great write-up and welcome to SMC.

[Allen Bookout]

untill recently scm and centuro as companys did not target the "homeowner" market and took for granted that folks buying their machines allready knew how to tear one apart and put it back together. but given that mm is targeting the hobbiest as well as the small shops it would be wise to assemble a clear, detailed assembly manual. .02 tod

Due to the fact that you are a professional and I am an amateur I find this statement very interesting. I would have thought that the professional shop would be the more demanding of the two since time is money to them. If I were a professional I think that I would expect my new tools to perform right out of the box with only minor adjustments and not a rebuild, modification or reassembly of parts of the machine. I guess maybe the large shops spend enough that a tech comes along with the machines to get them up and running correctly, especially with new models or a change of brands. That would certainly explain the difference.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Allen..........First the quote you singled out is 19 months old. Tod Evans is no longer a member here and can't respond. I can tell you that tod is a friend of mine. I'm an amateur too. He would never intentionally insult somebody but he doesn't beat around the bush. If you go to tod's website, you'll find that he is, indeed, a craftsman of the highest caliber that most of us hobbiests try to imitate. tod freely gives advice and information and takes advice and information from "hobbiests". He doesn't hold a lack of knowledge or skill or experience against anyone.

He will take insults against "Roscoe" very seriously!:D

Again...tod is right. The MM-16 was probably built for the commercial shop.....4.8 hp.......it's undoubtedly designed primarily for resawing. You don't need that kind of hp for scroll sawing and most blade manufacturers don't recommend 1/4" blade for resawing......16" resaw capability.....Now hobbiest's are starting to buy it. What he's trying to say.....triple beam construction...it's built stout.....switch interlocked blade brake....

Most machines and equipment are built to operate within a given range. When you start trying to run them at or near the end of the ranges for which they were designed, they don't perform flawlessly. Take some of the other b/s....Yeah they'll operate with a 1/4 fine but due to a lack of h/p or the design of the wheel (crowned) they don't function well with wider blades. That's a function of design considerations....

I find fault in a lot of manufacturer's manuals. So what's new?......

Find what you like and buy it. You don't like.....look somewhere else.

I just off loaded my MM-16 Monday. I may have to make a modification to use the 1/4" blade on mine.......but I'll bet my two son's will argue over ownership when it's still running well and I'm gone from this earth.:)

BTW.....tod evans owns a MM-16 and a MM-24 IIRC....I know he owns 2 different MiniMax b/s......he uses them commercially!

[Allen Bookout]

Allen..........First the quote you singled out is 19 months old. Tod Evans is no longer a member here and can't respond. I can tell you that tod is a friend of mine. I'm an amateur too. He would never intentionally insult somebody but he doesn't beat around the bush. If you go to tod's website, you'll find that he is, indeed, a craftsman of the highest caliber that most of us hobbiests try to imitate. tod freely gives advice and information and takes advice and information from "hobbiests". He doesn't hold a lack of knowledge or skill or experience against anyone.


I find fault in a lot of manufacturer's manuals. So what's new?......

Find what you like and buy it. You don't like.....look somewhere else.

I just off loaded my MM-16 Monday. I may have to make a modification to use the 1/4" blade on mine.......but I'll bet my two son's will argue over ownership when it's still running well and I'm gone from this earth.:)

BTW.....tod evans owns a MM-16 and a MM-24 IIRC....I know he owns 2 different MiniMax b/s......he uses them commercially!

I didn't notice the date. Sorry about that. I know who tod is and was not trying to start a fight. I just found that statement interesting and that is all. Sorry I struck a nerve. My statement was not intended as an attack on anyone. Just curiosity.

[Scott Welliver]

There is no place that I can track a 1/4" blade and make it work.
I was able to find one tracking position, just in front of center, where I could get the guide setup for the 1/4" blade -- but it was like walking a tight-rope.

I thought about replacing the thrust bearing thumbscrew on the lower guide, as that is what hits the saw frame first as the guides are moved back. With a cap screw there instead of the thumbscrew, the lower guides could probably go another 1/2" backward -- but an allen wrench would be needed to tighten it.

I also read about someone who had cut off one "wing" of the thumbscrew, again allowing the guides to go back further. That's another possible solution that, like using a cap screw, would let the guides move back another half inch or so at the cost of making it a little harder to lock down the thumbscrew.

In the end, I decided it was easier to trim the guard a little like others have done, and track the 1/4" blade somewhere on the front half of the tire. I think that's going to be the best solution with the existing saws.

Reading various posts, that problem has been around for a loooong time, so I'm just amazed that Minimax hasn't addressed it. Good to hear you got them to look closer and duplicate the problem -- I will be very interested to hear what their solution is.

One other thing I played with today... In my original post, I mentioned that the table was well balanced and that it tilted easily on the "trunnions" -- that's not exactly true, since the MM16 doesn't really have trunnions but rather a pivot point. That does make it well balanced and easy to tilt, but that comes with a disadvantage: The throat doesn't stay centered under the blade as the table tilts. You have to remove the throat plate and either saw without it (ok for large stuff) or make your own custom throat plates for various tilt angles. I made a couple of them today -- starting by resawing some oak to the proper thickness on the MM16. :)

Back to the guides... I have a Carter Stabilizer on order that should arrive at the same time as a 1/8" Timberwolf blade. I plan to give that a try using no lower guides at all, as Sam Blasco demonstrates in the MM16 video.

...Scott W

[Scott Welliver]

Any chance you could take some pics of that new throat plate? Or is it just the machining on the opening that's improved?
I'll try -- I'm new here, so hopefully I can figure out how to attach the photos.

I don't know when the change was made, it could have been a long time ago. I know that I saw a MM16 review dated 2003 that showed a throat plate with four long tapered "legs" supporting it. The legs sat on four triangles at the bottom of the table casting, and the reviewer complained about the leftover casting slag and the shape making it hard to make your own throat plates. See attachment #1.

The current design has added a machined "ledge" all the way around the throat. Again, it may have been this way for years -- I don't know when the change was made. The plate is larger and sits on the ledge, so it is just a simple, flat rectangle. It still has small screws in the corners to adjust it to be perfectly flat with the table if needed. See attachment #2 & #3.

I made an oak throat plate with a wider opening to allow tilting. You could of course make several of these for different tilt angles, with smaller slots, but I just made one that would handle the entire range. I countersunk wood screws in the corners and filed off the points so it has leveling screws that work just like the plastic plate that came with the saw. See attachment #4.

I also snapped a shot of where I trimmed the blade guard. I just cut out about another 3/8" in front of the bearing, and rounded the corners to match the existing cutout. Works great. You can see the 1/4" blade mounted on it, and the thrust bearing is right at the position where it would have been touching the guard before I trimmed it. Attachment #5.

...Scott W

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Scott.......Thanks for the posting of your photos. I just took delivery of my MM-16 Monday and won't have the opportunity to do anything with it for a couple of more weeks. I'll subscribe to this thread and use it for a guide. Thanks again.....

And Welcome to the Creek!

[Charlie Plesums]

I am looking to buy one of the carbide blades... I've seen a lot of discussion on the Tri-Master, the King Resaw, and (recently) the WoodMaster-CT. Still trying to decide. The price on the WoodMaster-CT is a lot less than the Tri-Master, so I'm leaning that direction right now. Anyone here used the WoodMaster-CT, and able to compare to the Tri-Master?

...Scott W
I had a Tri-Master, and it worked very well. Now I am using a WoodMaster-CT, and IMHO it is every bit as good, if not better, than the TriMaster. When I talked to the Lenox folks at AWFS they pointed out that the TriMaster was designed for metal, even though it works very well on wood. If you need a carbide blade smaller than 1 inch, the TriMaster is your only choice from Lenox. The WoodMaster CT was designed for resawing wood, and only comes in 1 and 2 inch widths. The band is the same thickness as the TriMaster, but the teeth are narrower, so the kerf is narrower, and the smaller number of teeth is optimized for resawing. I worried about the life with less carbide (width and fewer teeth) but at 60% of the cost, the lifespan would have to be a LOT lower to be a problem.

[Doug Shepard]

...
I don't know when the change was made, it could have been a long time ago. I know that I saw a MM16 review dated 2003 that showed a throat plate with four long tapered "legs" supporting it. The legs sat on four triangles at the bottom of the table casting, and the reviewer complained about the leftover casting slag and the shape making it hard to make your own throat plates.
...


Mine is the older style table (no ledge:( ) and throat plate. Mine was delivered in 2005 so it must be fairly recent. Looks like short of a new table or having a machine shop grind out those triangles and insert a machine bolt-on ledge I'll have to make do with the current setup. Thanks for the pics.

[Scott Welliver]

This discussion makes me wonder, when was the change made from more traditional trunnions to the current "tilt plate" design? Looking at photos in the MM16 manual, it shows trunnions. But my new MM16 has the table attached to a plate that tilts on a single pivot point.

It makes for really easy tilt adjustment but I wonder if it will be as stable, especially with heavy loads towards the outboard (right) side of the table.

...Scott W

[Jim Becker]

The change was made with the increase in re-saw height to 16"