Stabilizing materials...need product ideas for testing

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

Follow Creekers,

Some of you have seen and know that I have been playing with different materials to use for strengthening and stabilizing punky blanks. I have played with a number of different products and methods including:

Epoxy thinned with DNA
Epoxy thinned with acetone
Plexiglass disolved in acetone
Minwax Wood Hardener
Lacquer
Shellac
CA

My experimetns to date have not been very controlled and this has led me to an idea for an article. I plan to do some penetration tests with various different products in a controlled manner, measuring the penetration. I will then turn a piece stabilized with each product and see how it works and finishes. I will take pictures throughout the process and then write an article that I will share here for everyone's use.

I need your suggestions for products and or methods you would like to see tested. I plan to re-test all the products listed above in addition to these:

PC Rot Terminator
PC-Petrifier
System Three Rot Fix
Elmer's Wood Hardener
PolyAll 2000 (If I can get it. Currently out of stock according to their website)
CPES

What others do you know of that I should test? Thanks for your input.

[Dave Wimmer]

Curtis, how about 50/50 white glue and water?

[Dick Parr]

I have had some good luck with 50/50 Polyurethane and Acetone

[Rich Stewart]

I read an article somewhere about a guy that uses a DIY brake bleed air pump from an auto parts store. Puts his piece in a pickle jar filled with DNA. Pickle jar has a hole in the lid. Sucks out the air and it forces the DNA into the piece. Supposedly better than just letting it soak in. I am assuming this is mainly for pen blanks and other small pieces. Another question I have is, does putting wood in various recipes for stabilization change the color of the wood?

[Bill Stevener]

Hi Curtis,

With some what of a one page library that I maintain on the subject of stabilizing, for a better word, punky wood, email chats with System Three have not answered the questions I presented. However, in a reply, they suggested to use System Three Clear Coat Epoxy a Solvent Free product.

I have not tried this product and didn't see it on your list. May be one to include in your trials and final report.
System Three, also stated this is what most turners use that wish to stabilize wood. I have not found any pro or con reports, on the product, published by other turners, you may well have though.

As far as the wood rot products go, they have very good bonding properties, not very good penetrating qualities and act more like a filler and a build-up, repair type of fix all.

So far your findings of the DNA - Epoxy blend, seems to be doing the trick, as noted by those that have tried the same.
I have not given it a go as of now, just waiting on some more reviews by others, as I have quite a pricey piece of wood I am hoping to find a fix for.

So far I have called your finding an "Epoxy Manhattan", however, it's your drink, so call it what you wish.:D

Best of luck with your trek down a long dark passage.

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Stuart Johnson]

I have done a little testing with Nelsonite. So far it has just been liberal soaking with a paint brush but I would like to try using vacuum and then pressure. It's a product used by poolcue makers.

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

Hi Curtis,
As far as the wood rot products go, they have very good bonding properties, not very good penetrating qualities and act more like a filler and a build-up, repair type of fix all.


Yeah, that is pretty much what I have found with the couple that I have tried. Although, Minwax Wood Hardener does seem to penetrate well for me, it just does not get the wood nice and hard. It is always a litte gummy. I have taken the Minwax and added a little red dye so I could check the penetration and it completely penetrated a pen blank that was not yet drilled.

I will add the System Three product you mentioned and see how it compares to the "Epoxy Manhatten", though! BTW, looks like your name sticks!

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

Curtis, how about 50/50 white glue and water?

Dave, will add it to the list! Thanks for the suggestion. The Elmer's Wood Restorer or whatever it is called smells like white Elmer's glue so I suspect it is similar but will test the 50/50 to compare. Thanks again for the suggestion.

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

I have had some good luck with 50/50 Polyurethane and Acetone

Dick,

I will add that to the list as well. I tried it on a small piece and was not very pleased with the hardening ability but will test it again with a more controlled test. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

I read an article somewhere about a guy that uses a DIY brake bleed air pump from an auto parts store. Puts his piece in a pickle jar filled with DNA. Pickle jar has a hole in the lid. Sucks out the air and it forces the DNA into the piece. Supposedly better than just letting it soak in. I am assuming this is mainly for pen blanks and other small pieces. Another question I have is, does putting wood in various recipes for stabilization change the color of the wood?

Rich,

The DNA alone will not do anything to harden the punky wood, it will just help to dry a rough turned piece without cracking and warping. The vacuum pump would probbly be a good idea for some of the other materials but I really want to test without so that those without vacuum pumps will still have good information. I may do a follow up test to see if the vacuum pumps help any. Thank for the suggestion.

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

I have done a little testing with Nelsonite. So far it has just been liberal soaking with a paint brush but I would like to try using vacuum and then pressure. It's a product used by poolcue makers.

Stuart,

I will add the Nelsonite to my list if I can get some. Like I mentioned above, my test will not use a vacuum pump, at least not the first test, since I would like to have a simply, cost effective solution to write about. I may do a follow up test with the better products to see if the vacuum helps the penetration. Thanks for the suggestion on the Nelsonite. BTW, where is the best place to get it?

[Jim Sample]

Curtis/ Bill

I have been gone from the computor or 2 trips and can not find this "home brew/witches brew" or whatever in a search on this site. Can someone lead me back to this "fix". I have a pecan log I brought home from the last Spring TMA get to gether that is all spalted and soft in a few spots. So far, I have used Minwax Wood Hardner with good results, but I have some System Three on hand.

Thanks

Jim Sample

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

Jim,

What I do is turn my piece with a wall thickness an !/8 or so more that I want to finish with. Take the piece off the lathe and mix up some S3 epoxy like your normally would. Thin this mix with DNA until you get it the consistency of real maple syrup, pretty thin but not too thin. Now use a cheap brush and flood the piece with the mix. It will soak in real quick. Keep adding the mix until it doesn't soak up any more. Let it cure for at least 24 hours and then re-mount and finish the piece. The epoxy will solidify the punky and any bug "dust" present. Remember that adding the DNA will significantly increase the cure time on the epoxy so if it is a little soft, wait another day. I usually put a little in a puddle on a piece of paper to determine when it is hard.

Hope that helps!

[Stuart Johnson]

Stuart,

Thanks for the suggestion on the Nelsonite. BTW, where is the best place to get it?

I bought mine from Dennis Ellis :

Darren@EllisCustomKnifeworks.com

You can buy it in larger amounts but Dennis will sell it by the gallon. He also has a web site as listed in the e-mail address.

[Frank Stevens]

Curtis,

I appreciate your work on this project. I've wondered myself what some of the pro's use. It would seem that a vacuum of some sorts and complete penetration would be needed to have complete stabilization.

I figured I could get double duty out of a vacuum pump for use as a chuck on the lathe and use it for stabilizing. A good excuse for more toys! :D

I'm waiting for a brochure from Nelsonite. It's made in Grand Rapids, Michigan about 45 minutes north of me. A visit to the company is probably in my near future and I'll let you know anything I find out.

In my own searching on this subject I want to say I ran across some people that were using Gorilla glue and similar poly products thinned with (mineral spirits)? but you know how some of that late night surfing goes. :o

Anyway I'm sure about the GG and similar Elmer-etc. products. I just can't say for sure what they were cutting it with.

Something else to play with. Hope it turns out good.

Frank Stevens

[John Hart]

I'm going to try using my kitchen Seal-a-Meal vaccuum thingy to see if I can get better penetration. Gotta rig up some kind of tub with a fitting, but I bet I can do this on the cheap and still get the results. I'll keep ya posted on my progress.

[John D Watson]

Hey all, has anyone used LV's wood restoration kit. I have not used it for turning but have used it on window sills and door sills with good results. I believe its an epoxy mix of some kind and it cures Hard. The last time I used it the 2" oak sill drank the stuff up thru to the back side which IMHO is excellent penitration. No matter what, I'm looking forward to the results of your efforts.

[Rob Bourgeois]

I'm going to try using my kitchen Seal-a-Meal vaccuum thingy to see if I can get better penetration. Gotta rig up some kind of tub with a fitting, but I bet I can do this on the cheap and still get the results. I'll keep ya posted on my progress.

John..they make an attachment for it that fits canning jars. If I am not mistaken you can put pen blanks in a quart canning jar. The attachment was shown for storing coffee adn flour adn other stuff. My only hesitation woud be using a flamable material with the seal a meal OR trying to sneak it outside in the first place....

[John Hart]

....My only hesitation woud be using a flamable material with the seal a meal OR trying to sneak it outside in the first place....

Ooops...Oh yeah...I Forgot about that little explosion problem.:eek: May have to re-think this a bit.:o Thanks Ron!:)

[Bill Stevener]

Ooops...Oh yeah...I Forgot about that little explosion problem.:eek: May have to re-think this a bit.:o Thanks Ron!:)


300' of vacuum hose :confused:.


I was thinking about the same thing... Sooooooooo, as you posted it first, let me know how you make out.:D

Thanks for your time,

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[John Hart]

....I was thinking about the same thing... Sooooooooo, as you posted it first, let me know how you make out.:D ...

Thanks Bill. If you don't hear from me for a month...you'll know it didn't work out.:)

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

John,

I have used my Tilia FoodSaver Pro with Minwax Wood Hardener which is very flamable without any problems. It didn't seem to help a lot, though.

On a side note, I had a nice spalted pecan pen blank that was way too punky to use but too pretty to throw away. I decided to try my Epoxy Manhatten to see how it would work. I wanted to add some color so I mixed it up and added a few drops of Bordeaux Transtint dye. I then soaked the blank with it unti it would not take anymore. I drilled and turned it last night and I got 99.95% penetration and the blank turned like plastic. Nice long curly shavings. This was with a 90 degree cross cut blank, too. I would have never guessed it was so punky to begin with, let alone cross cut.

I will post a picture as soon as I get a chance.

[Mike Vickery]

I've wondered myself what some of the pro's use.
Frank Stevens

My understanding is that professional shop are actually doing the opposite of the vacum, they are useing preasure to force the stabelizer into the wood.

[Paul Downes]

Hi Folks, I have just gotten back into turning after a year off. I have a couple of questions. I have some wood that is very green, as in wet. I am almost certian that it will split if I try to dry it. I am wondering if there is a way to process the wood to keep it from splitting and then harden it with one of the methods you have been discussing. I got out my LDD and water bucket tonight and have been thinking about soaking the pen blanks in that for a day and then dring and finaly soaking the blanks in a hardener. I know just enough about chemistry to be a little worried. :eek: It would be really nice to have a knowledge base article on the forum dealing with this subject. I apreciate the work some of you have been doing on the subject. I also live an hour from Grand Rapids Michigan and am planning on a trip to get some Nelsonite. I bet if a person picked up an old pressure cooker at a garage sale and pressurized it with an air hose that might work to drive the chemicals into the wood. Just don't blow yourself up. It is unfortunate that the more figured wood also has lots of stress in it. This is my main motivation for trying to stabilize green wood. Also I hate waiting around to turn a nice piece.
My second question is; what is the method for making the plexiglass/acetone mix?

[Ed Scolforo]

Curtis: Just an FYI, the best way to stabilize wood is having it injected with a plastic resin under high pressure. That's how the better pen blank suppliers do it. I used this company before when I was doing alot of pens. It's cheaper than buying the blanks pre stabilized. They did a good job.
Ed


http://www.stabilizedwood.com/price.shtml#customerwood

[Jeff Walters]

I have had some good luck with 50/50 Polyurethane and Acetone

HI Dick,

Any particular Polyurethane you can recommned?

Jeff Walters

[John Keeton]

Jeff, this thread is 7 years old!! You may not get a response from Dick.

[Steve Busey]

Jeff, this thread is 7 years old!! You may not get a response from Dick.

Indeed, Dick's last forum activity was in 2009...

[Jeff Gilfor]

There is a product that is used by museums to stabilize and preserve rare manuscripts, wooden artifacts, and bones. It is a synthetic resin called Paraloid (B72). It is relatively cheap (about $20 per pound of dry pellets, delivered), but can only be purchased through one distributer (Conservation Resources) (http://www.conservationresources.com/Main/section_40/section40_04.htm). The folks there are very helpful, and they have other products of this type.

A while back, I purchased a pound to play around with. I've used it to coat pieces when turning them green, if I can't finish in one session, and am past the "rough out" and let it dry stage. Also have used it to stabilize punky wood. It works VERY well.

It can be dissolved in most solvent, but they recommend DNA. It dries quickly and is completely colorless, doesn't change the color of the wood at all, and feels like there is nothing on/in the wood once dried. Turns as if it's not there too. I have applied it with paper towel to the piece, until it is as saturated as I can get without making a total mess. Starts to get tacky as it dries. In about an hour, you have a nicely "preserved" piece of wood.

I'm also convinced that it serves to drive out the water from green wood, and minimize checking, cracking, and warping. I am in the process of doing some experimenting myself. Too soon to publish, but it is promising.

[Jeff Gilfor]

Oops. Me too. Responded to the new post without checking date of the OP. never mind.