What's up with "X"?!

[John Miliunas]

So, I got my latest "Tool Crib" catalog today. Inside, I find some huge spreads on Delta's latest "X tools". So, bleeding edge innovations? Some real souped up features? Tons of improved safety devices, right? Well, aside of some fancier window dressing and improved warranty, the only thing I detected really, REALLY different, is the price! Whew! You can't even get into one of the "X" contractor saws for under nine and a half bills! 'Scuse me? And, I didn't even see any pricing for their "old" table saws and such. Granted, I think they all boasted "Made in the USA", but I'd still like to know exactly how much of the whole manufacturing process is done State-side! In looking at their higher end cabinet saw, another half of a c-note will buy you a comparable Powermatic, albeit with the 3 instead of the 5 hp motor. For $150.00 more than the "X" saw, it WILL get you the big Powermatic! What I can easily see happening here is, Delta has just given a great big lead-off to Grizz, Bridgewood and others, many of which offer cabinet saws for *less* than the price of their current "X" CS! Personally, when it comes to a stationary tool, I'm not sure that the additional warranty period can justify an inflated price tag. I don't know 'bout the rest of you guys (and gals!), but I find myself asking: "So, y "X"?!" :cool:

[Jim Becker]

Can you say, "Marketing"?? Paint and warranty are the only differences from the "regular" line and it appears to be just a promo. I was also hoping for a little innovation, but alas...nada.

It may have the positive effect of pushing other vendors to lengthen their warranties, but even the two-year warranties that Delta and Jet have been sporting for a few years haven't really influenced other brands in that direction.

[Mike Circo]

Marketing!!!???

Adding the 5 Year warrenty would be marketing. Adding the warrenty then adding $100 to the price is not.

Oh they add "Free" accessories. Sorry, they have been available on the saws as a package deal for a couple of years. (Table boards, cast iron wings, blades)

They give out a "Free" extra tool, (Drill, router, etc.). But by jacking up the price by $100, it is no longer free.

I am a big Delta supporter, but this program reeks. They are going to shoot themselves in the foot with this one. The 5 year warrenty is a great step toward separating Delta from the rest of the pack. But by upping the prices, they essentially charge you for an extended warrenty. This is going to really hurt them in the Contractor saw and Bandsaw area where the competation and price is most tough.

(BTW, the program is called "X5". It is hard to see in the graphic)

[Jim Becker]

Marketing!!!???

Adding the 5 Year warrenty would be marketing. Adding the warrenty then adding $100 to the price is not.

Oh they add "Free" accessories. Sorry, they have been available on the saws as a package deal for a couple of years. (Table boards, cast iron wings, blades)...{~snip~}

I don't disagree that this program is a dud even one iota Mike, but I assure you that Delta thinks this is all about marketing! Trust me, putting a "new name" on a select product line in order to convince you, the consumer, that the "extra benefits" are worth the extra cost is 100% marketing effort. Corporations do it all the time...all the time...

[Tom Pritchard]

So, I got my latest "Tool Crib" catalog today. Inside, I find some huge spreads on Delta's latest "X tools". So, bleeding edge innovations? Some real souped up features? John, I totally agree! I have been shopping around for about 6 months for a new saw. I have been considering Jet, Delta, Grizzly, Bridgewood, General, and Powermatic (long shot due to $$$). I was at our local WoodCraft this week, and looked at the new "X" series saw. 3 HP, left tilt,50" Biesemeyer fence, Free blade, standard insert, usual stuff for $1799.00! They have a Powermatic on the floor there for $1899 with almost the same features. I want to buy American, and I really like the Delta, but man, are they ever forcing the average WW'er to buy China and Taiwan products! I'm trying to find an older Delta Unisaw somewhere that they are trying to sell off to make way for the new "X" series, but they are almost all gone. Still not sure what I'm going to do....

Thanks for the chance to "rant" a little John!!!

[John Miliunas]

Thanks for the chance to "rant" a little John!!!

I'm not even sure it's a "rant", Tom. It's simply calling a spade a spade. And, it's really not even an original ploy. Many OEM's have been doing similar stuff for years. A number of years ago, a friend lent me his almost brand-new "White" roto-tiller. Worked like a dream. I loved it. He purchased it at his local lawn & garden center and paid a pretty buck for it. Some time later, while wondering through my local Farm & Fleet, I spotted a tiller which looked familiar. Yup, virtually and literally the SAME exact unit, except this one was red and branded as MTD. Oh yeah...Also close to $300.00 LESS! (Been using it for the last 6 years with ZERO problems!)

Sorry for the sidetrack. Back to the subject, if I were in the market for a TS (cabinet type) and I didn't have BIG-$$$, it would, most likely be a Bridgewood. Their sub-$1000.00 unit is, I believe, the carbon copy of the Grizz. They also have a heavier-duty unit and, from what I understand, is built as HD or more so, than the Powermatic and many hundreds $$$$ less! In either case, even though they are imported, they are assembled and teste at Wilke before shipping to the consumer.
Their Customer Service is A-1. They would get my TS business and Grizz would probably get a good portion of my "other items" budget. Basically, as Mike C. put it, I think Delta has put a round or two of lead into their own foot! :cool:

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I think what we're seeing is the other shoe dropping. Delta has clearly established two lines of power tools--first they came out with their cheaper made in China models and now they have branded the high dollar made in the USA line with the X label. No other manufacturer offers two distinct lines of tools so they may be able to attract the hobbiest who would buy Sears or Rigid with the chepaer line and the serious hobbiest/pro with the X line. I guess only time will tell, but I suspect only those who already have a well equipped shop will notice the price difference and they are not marketing to us anyway. They're after the millions of new customers that will be buying tools in the next 10-15 years.

[John Miliunas]

I guess only time will tell, but I suspect only those who already have a well equipped shop will notice the price difference and they are not marketing to us anyway. They're after the millions of new customers that will be buying tools in the next 10-15 years.

I'm thinkin' you're right, Dennis. With Delta's BIG-$ backing, I'm sure they've done a lot of market research and that's what they came up with. They may, however, have not entirely thought it through. With the Internet in so many homes today and buyers becoming more savvy with their purchasing decisions, loads of people are turning to places like SMC for their FIRST tool purchases. I, for one, will pay a WHOLE lot more attention to what actual users have to say about a tool line than that of what their (OEM's) marketers throw at me. In other words, if they hadn't kicked the crap outta' their pricing and disguised it by "adding features", I may be more enthusiastic about buying and recommending their tools to others, including "newbies". I just read a review/comparison on mortising machines and, the Delta came out on top. Yet, even with that, I'd hesitate to get one, simply based on how they're going after customers today.

A couple more things on this subject and I'll get off my soapbox. WW tools, IMHO, are generally overpriced to begin with. (I know, I know...Lots of "specialty"-type of equipment is the same way.) That notwithstanding, you can't shop for most major power tools and find vast differences in price, which leads me to believe there's a certain amount of price protection going on. That being the case, I also have to believe the OEM's are building in a pretty solid profit margin. Lastly, though I understand they're in it for the buck (it IS a business, after all), I feel as though there's a lot of deception going on in order to gain that business. Such practices certainly will do nothing to enhance those of us currently waist-deep in tools already! By that, I guess I feel as though I'm being treated like, "OK guys, we're done with this bunch of customers. On to the next bigger group!"

All in all, I just don't think it's the swiftest marketing move I've ever seen. Time will tell, I guess. OK, stepping down.

[Derek Arita]

The only exception to all of this is Delta's 17-990X, VS 16 1/2" Drill Press. The old version, 17-925 sold for about $949. The new version has new handles and stickers and sells for about $725. As far as I know, no changes internally to cause a $200 price drop. Delta's rep on another site attributes the drop to "marketing". Something's going on here.

[Matt Woodworth]

Delta has done a poor job explaining what is new about their equipment. They've taken a lot of heat for "changing the sticker, improving the warranty, and bumping up the price". The truth is that each of the machines in the X series has been improved.

For the Unisaw, the handwheels are different (improved?), the extension table is improved (thicker than the unifence and with a shelf that the beis was lacking), and a couple of other things.

For the bandsaw, the dust collection is improved, the table is larger, the guide has improved, quick release blade tension was added, etc.

True, these are all little things but they are more than just a sticker. The "up to $500 is free accessories" was a mistake. Years ago the Unisaw didn't come with a miter gauge, motor cover, extension table, etc. Then the limited edition saws came along and the "free accessories" actually were nice package deals. However, they've been around for years and Delta should have known that the X5 package would be compared to the Limited Edition and not the 1995 version of the saw. People no longer thing of the motor cover as an upgrade to the Unisaw. It's part of the deal in the same way that my truck came with doors. When I think of "free accessory" I think tenon cutting jig, not saw blade.

According to me, X5 is an evolution not a revolution. Their customers expected more and Delta didn't do themselves any favors by requiring detective skills just to figure out what's new.

[John Weber]

I really don’t get all the Delta bashing. The X5 series is a different marketing approach for Delta and besides the extended warranty, small changes, and accessories that may have been available in other packages, it encourages, through rebates and coupons, customers to purchase additional X5 series machines. If a person shops around, as woodworkers almost always do, prices are very similar to what you would have found before the X5 introduction.

I really don’t get why some people are so anti-Delta. Yes, they cost more, but they still produce many machines in the US, (yes, using some imported parts as every almost every other company manufacturing in the US does), they offer refined designed, excellent fit in finish, and a superior warranty. I see all the posts praising Grizzly and how great they are, well Grizzly even admits up until 5 years ago there machines were not up to snuff. Yes, I am pro Delta, and yes I derive some income selling vintage Delta parts, but I have always preferred the North American manufacturers to the imports. General, Powermatic (before the Jet purchase), and Delta have always provided excellent support and solid products.

I just sold a 63 year old Unisaw that came out of a school and is undergoing a complete restoration. Almost every piece of import equipment that I’ve seen at auction was either broken beyond repair or not worth the time and effort to get in running condition. Finally my experience with Grizzly service has been less then good. I returned a router bit that broke the first time it hit the wood. Grizzly sent it back with a note stating it was beyond warranty (I had purchased it more than a year ago) – nice, way to stand behind your products Grizzly. My Dad, an industrial arts teacher inherited a school shop with several Grizzly machines and is constantly having trouble getting parts. In every instance I’ve dealt with Delta they have proven to be outstanding in the customer service area.

Lastly, imports bring very little to the table. They have copied designs and I rarely see improvements (i.e. Grizzly coping Powermatic’s less then outstanding shaper fence, whereas Delta recently introduced a completely new design, or the import manufacturers removing the chip breaker from the larger planers to reduce cost while sacrificing some adjustment and possibly quality of cut (Delta 15” import planer does not have a chip breaker either, but the Powermatic Model 100 and General 14” planer do). When looking at machines side by side and comparing machined pulleys, cast iron brackets verse stamped steel bracket, and other refinements the imports to me bring very little to the table but a low ball price.

So before you jump all over me, I have some imported equipment, and I understand price is important, but I get tried of reading how Delta is some giant money making machine. Just check the annual report, they are going ok, but woodworking equipment is not the best way to get rich. It would be interesting to compare Pentair (Delta’s parent) to Woodstock International (to the best of my knowledge Grizzly’s privately held parent company).

And finally, for those looking for great innovation in wooding machinery. I think we’ve seen lots of innovation the last 10 years, but as with hand tools the nature of the business is a bit slower to adopt new ideas. In table saws alone, we seen the proliferation of over arm guards, new splitters (some from one of Delta’s sister companies), super blades, excellent power, large accurate fences, a new saw stop safety innovation, new designs from DeWalt and a similar product from Jet, more European equipment available, etc…

So did the new X5 line bring this innovation about, no, but I don’t think that is the point. I m sorry for the rant, but I really get tried of reading all the negative stuff about Delta. Are we better with the importers, yes. Have they changed the market, yes. So who is to say what the future will hold, but a Unisaw is still a good buy, and for some a Bridgewood, Sunhill, Grizzly, or other import will do just as well. A Grizzly 10” table saw runs between $870 and $970 shipped and a comparable Delta 10” Unisaw runs $1299 shipped, for me the Delta is well worth the additional cost.

John

[Ted Shrader]

Ignoring the specifics of this post concerning Delta and its new "marketing" ploy, here are a couple of observations on the general topic:
Minor changes (handwheels, etc in this case) and advertising hype equal the latest product that everyone must have.
The technique has been used for everything from reducing the amount of cereal in the box and raising prices, to getting you to sign up for the internet with the latest high speed technology.
Will it provide spike in sales volume or will the curve remain the same? We will never know, but certainly it will be discussed in the tool manufacturers offices.
Delta and other manufacturers read this and other bulletin boards. The feedback here will have an input to their follow-on strategy.
The "new and improved" technique is a way to get new people involved. For those that have wanted to become involved for a while, this may provide sufficient impetus to make the purchase. What we here at the Creek can hope for is that some of those new folks find their way here. Expands the pool of ideas and their explanation.
An educated consumer is always the best consumer. That consumer will be able to match their requirements to a given product.


Ted

[Bart Leetch]

But Delta isn't green. People have painted their saw white but hardly ever do they paint it green. White just wouldn't look right in my shop. My shop colors are green & gray with a little gold thrown in for good measure. Besides that who's going to know the difference 100 years from now let alone tomorrow what saw cut the material, as long as it is a nice clean straight cut.

If its a good cabinet or contractor saw & you have a good quality blade & cuts a straight square clean cut that all thats needed.

You could make identical projects 1 on a Delta cabinet X model saw & 1 on a contractors saw or even a Grizzly cabinet saw & if they all perform the way they should you'll not be able to tell the difference when the project is finished.

I am sorry to say this but it reminds me of the Cadillac owns the road attitude.

I grew up around a custom cabinet shop that was running a 10" Sears Craftsman contractors saw that was purchased new 1955 & was the first major shop tool & paved the way for the rest of the tools which also paid for them selves.

That saw is still going fine today. With a new fence. Oh by the way how many of the shops here have completely worn out their fence before they replaced it. I mean so worn out that the system that grips the guide rail won't grip any more no matter how much you adjust it. It only took 35 years of commercial & hobby work. Is sure wasn't a fancy fence you had to measure at the fence & blade with a tape measure. At the end it was being clamped down with a c clamp at the front & a c clamp at the back holding a stick against the back side of the fence to keep it from shifting to the right.

Delta cabinet saw nice to have yes wonderful to work with yes, absolutely necessary no. Especially for hobby shops.

Now this & all the above is just my opinion. If I could get a Delta left tilt cabinet saw for about $900 with a good fence, I'd have one too but not for $1200. The $300 dollars saved would go to another tool.

I may never have any brand of cabinet saw (sure I would like one) my contractors saw works great & I plan on building a base for it to hold jigs for it & the Delta Router/shaper that will be in the right wing. I have a 2' wing area on the right side that will have the Router/shaper & a 18" wing on the left side with a router table in it already.

With a full sized panel saw in the shop I don't need a 52" fence system.

With a sharp blade & the contractors saw properly tuned I have never had a problem cutting hard wood. I may need to rip hardwood a little slower but this is a hobby not a business.

I am happy for those that have a cabinet saw Delta or otherwise & am glad you are happy with it. I would be too.

[John Allman]

Gentlemen:

An interesting thread. I was at a woodworking show last week in Durham, Ontario, where I saw the new X version of the DJ-20 8" jointer. The price was CDN$1500 with a free tool thrown in, and the five year warranty. I paid CDN$2100 for my DJ-20 a few years ago, and I thought I had made an excellent purchase at the time.

It seems that all the tools I own have gone down in price and all the tools I want have gone up in price!

For Tom, if you want a North American made quality cabinet saw, consider the General (and for Bart - it is green). I have many Delta tools, but have been convinced, that when I can sort out the space to accomodate a cabinet saw, that it should be a General.

John

[John Miliunas]

I really don’t get all the Delta bashing.

John, with all due respect, the intent of this thread was NOT to bash Delta or any other OEM. Also, I completely respect your pro-Delta comments. Just for the record, I make my living in the IT field and am a pretty staunch advocate of Microsoft. (Gasp!) At the same time, there is much about MS I don't agree with and don't hesitate to point it out. Does that make it bad product or am I "bashing MS"? Certainly not!

Fact is, my primary WW machine is my table saw. Albeit it's but a contractor saw, it DOES happen to be a Delta. I also have a number of Porter Cable tools. (aka Delta) As well as Jet, Festool, Dewalt, Hitachi and yes, Grizzly too. Typically, I will try to make my purchases on the basis of what will return the quality and features required for the amount of cash I have available for said purchase. Most of the time, each purchase comes after a fair amount of research, hands-on if possible, and even some soul searching.

I guess, in essence, my original post was mainly intended to demonstrate that not everyone goes through the same buying process as many of us do and such marketing may indeed lend itself more to the impulse buyer. On the other hand, if as Matt points out, there are some true innovations and/or improvements to their line, why in the heck aren't they pointing them out? Could one of the reasons be that the only ones who would really care about that are the more "seasoned" tool buyers and that's NOT who their marketing is targeting?

Just some random thoughts of an aspiring woodworker..... :cool:

[Don Farr]

Link here and read what Ridgid is calling their new line. Wait a minute, i thought they were getting out of the business. :confused:
http://www.woodmagazine.com/newsletter/8-15-03.html

[Jim Becker]

Link here and read what Ridgid is calling their new line. Wait a minute, i thought they were getting out of the business. :confused:
http://www.woodmagazine.com/newsletter/8-15-03.html

You misunderstand what is happening...Emerson is no longer going to produce Ridgid brand woodworking tools, but the brand name, itself, will continue to be sold by HD. The products are being made by another manufacturer associated with the same "parent" organization that hawks Ryobi. One thing to notice from the blurb in the WOOD newsletter...the "lifetime" warranty is no more after December when it goes to three years on the new products. I think I'll stick to what I've been buying as I see no compelling reason to consider the Ridgid woodworking products.

[John Weber]

John,

Your post just seemed to be one of several “picking on” Delta as a company and not at a particular tool or feature. Not every product they make is the best in class, but with the demise of Powermatic, they lead many categories. I also think Delta brings a lot of intangibles to the table, US manufacturing jobs, sponsoring shows: New Yankee Workshop, DIY Warehouse Warriors, etc…, attending many of the woodworking shows – these are things I enjoy. My shop is full of Delta and Powermatic, some of the Powermatic machines are imported thus comparable with other import brands. I could have purchased them cheaper from catalog company, but I like to support the local dealers as best I can and they always do the best they can for me.

I also try to spend my limited cash the best I can, and always shop around. If I won the lottery I’d buy a Felder or two. I think Delta’s new program well appeal to people buying multiple machines, as there are additional incentives. It’s true we all shop a bit different, I hope I’m not the only one that creates an excel spreadsheet for a major tool purchase to compare features, dealers, and price.

I have most of the major machines so now my tools wish list is composed of: miter trimmer, left blower (not ww but I want one), hand planes, and “gadgets”. Not as fun to shop for as a new machine, but there won’t be any major “upgrades” until I move, which hopefully won’t be soon.

Time to cut some wood – John

P.S. My guess is your contractor saw serves you very well, especially if it has a Biesemeyer or Unifence…

[Paul Geer]

I see no compelling reason to consider the Ridgid woodworking products.

That's interesting, for years Ridgid has been a top contender in the plumbing field, you couldn't do any better then own Ridgid equipment for your field truck in the plumbing business.

But for wood working...? Fascinating.


As for Delta...

Interesting disscusion, seem like Delta is always in the spot light one way or the other. If the X5 "look" has done anything at all, it has put Delta into the woodworker's sights again. ;)

[Jim Becker]

...but with the demise of Powermatic…

'Splain that please. While PM is now part of the WMH group, I'm not sure that it is a negative. PM seems to be focusing more on the higher end and industrial user, reducing the overlap with Jet in all but a very few items. My local dealer, who has been selling both brands for a very long time finds that to be a postive thing. All companies change over time and much of that change is due to the marketplace changing and economic conditions.

[Jim Becker]

That's interesting, for years Ridgid has been a top contender in the plumbing field, you couldn't do any better then own Ridgid equipment for your field truck in the plumbing business.

'Still true from what I've seen and heard. My plumber has a bunch of Ridgid tools he schleps around in his truck(s) and speaks highly of them. This is probably a good example of when it may have been a better idea to develop a separate brand name to avoid confusion should things not turn out the way they planned. But you know what they say about hindsight... :cool:

My original comment about the woodworking tools really mean what it said...nothing stood out about them over the brands I was already buying. (Some would say the warranty, but one really has to read the fine print on that one to be sure it's fully understood...not to mention the concept of "who's lifetime"! :eek: )

[John Weber]

Jim,

I guess it's just my personal opionion. I delt a fair bit with PM before the purchase and always enjoyed working with the guys in McMinnville. Since the changes they have dropped many of the tools, some imported, some US made, closed the foundry and older plant. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details now. While Jet has good or even great customer service, I miss dealing with the guys that knew Powermatic equipment up and down. I haven't compared a pre buyout 66 with a new machine, but my guess there are some changes. Finally, I guess I said demise indicating while still active in the industrail market, PM appears to be pulling out of the high end hobbiest ranks.

John