A Demonstration Of What NOT To Do!!!!!

[Bill Stevener]

Hi Gang,
I guess like all of us, I get out surfing around. If I find something of interest, as long as it is not copyrighted, I may add it to my photo collection.

This is one I just found, along with others in the same add that I have elected not to post........ This guy sells lathes, or the like, he is demonstrating this one. :eek:

Several other tools, of the same purpose type, were noted not for sale, they were laying next to the lathe.

Talk about an all around shop.:D

This thread is spinning wood related--:confused:

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Keith Burns]

Now thats TURNING !:eek:

[Mike Ramsey]

Ok Batman, where's the lathe?? Unless your talking about that potato
peeler that feller is using :D

[Chris Rolke]

i think he is referring to the fact this guy is using a wood chisel on the wood lathe

[Bill Stevener]

i think he is referring to the fact this guy is using a wood chisel on the wood lathe

Well if your guna use it, at least turn it right side up--------:D :confused: :rolleyes: :p

[Mike Ramsey]

Missed that!! Was looking for a lathe!!

[Bernie Weishapl]

I saw that one to Bill. I did a double take when I saw he was turning with wood chisels.

[Randy Meijer]

OK. Guess I will demonstrate the fact that I am a self taught turner and ask what is wrong with using a wood chisel with a lathe?? Seems to me that a sharp edge is a sharp edge?? I don't see a great deal of difference in the configuration of a wood chisel and my little skew?? Randy

[John Hart]

OK. Guess I will demonstrate the fact that I am a self taught turner and ask what is wrong with using a wood chisel with a lathe?? Seems to me that a sharp edge is a sharp edge?? I don't see a great deal of difference in the configuration of a wood chisel and my little skew?? Randy

Far be it for me to criticize someone using various odd things to turn with. I think most folks will try any kind of tool to see if it will help in our efforts. But that said, I have an expectation that someone who is selling and demonstrating a piece of equipment should actually know how to use it. The fact that he has the chisel upside down indicates that he knows not what he is doing. Some inexperienced, yet energetic individual buying that lathe and following his example is going to get frustrated with the fact that Turning is the act of "rubbing the wood til smooth".;)

[Keith Christopher]

Turning is the act of "rubbing the wood til smooth".;)

You mean it's not ? What the heck did I buy all this sandpaper for ?? :eek:

Is this the same little lathe that comes in a nice little shrinkwrapped package ? ROFL
Wonder if he'll get a catch or not ?

[Raymond Overman]

If he'd ride the bevel of that chisel he'd get a lot better results instead of scraping with it. As it is, he's going to get a lot of tearout scraping across those long grain fibers.

There again, how many kite string holders do you need? :eek:

[David Fried]

Maybe he's sharpening the chisel on a piece of Maple ... or perhaps just burnishing the burr off! Nawww.

I stayed away from the lathe for twenty years after my first attempt at turning with a wood chisel. Scary! By now my friend has probably gotten my chuck of wood out of his shop ceiling!

David Fried

[Andy Hoyt]

Good thing he's holding on for dear life with both hands.

And if he has a catch, I sure hope he's wearing protection - the lathe will fly off the dowel and smack him in the face.

[Dave Richards]

I had to ask if he recommended using bench chisels for turning with this lathe.

He responded to my question thusly: "YES YOU WILL NEED A SET OF CHISELS OR GOUGES. YOU CAN FIND A NICE SET FROM STANLEY FOR ABOUT 10 BUCKS AT A HARDWARE STORE !"

This turning thing is going to cost less than I thought! :D

[Bill Grumbine]

Well I looked and looked at this thing, and to tell you all the truth, I can't see a whole lot of what he is doing that is unsafe. A bench chisel is not the best choice, but he has it with the bevel down. In fact, it is very close to my straight chisel, known in some circles as a straight skew (sic). In that orientation, it will behave much like a skew. Of course, it looks like he is scraping with it, and he is going to get the same results as if he were scraping with a skew. Ineffcient maybe, but I would not say unsafe - at least not any more than a skew is unsafe. :D

Bill

[Mike Ramsey]

Good thing he's holding on for dear life with both hands.

And if he has a catch, I sure hope he's wearing protection - the lathe will fly off the dowel and smack him in the face.

Twenty minutes later and my sides are still hurtin....:):D:p

[John Hart]

I think it is tremendously important for people who have the ability to influence new turners, to take their responsibility seriously by recommending and demostrating using the proper tools. I put this on the same level as doing a demonstration on Parting, using a dovetail saw...sure, it'll work, but it hurts when it smacks you in the face!:eek:

...But...I guess he's just trying to sell cheap lathes by showing that it's cheap to Turn.:rolleyes: I think I'll go make a kite string holder now.:p

[Bill Grumbine]

I think it is tremendously important for people who have the ability to influence new turners, to take their responsibility seriously by recommending and demostrating using the proper tools.

That's all well and good John, but I don't think that this illustration rises to the level of dangerous. I have seen nationally known, regularly published turners do stupid stuff with arrogant attitudes when demonstrating, things lots worse that this. This just isn't that bad, and to tell the truth there are worse ways to turn than using a bench chisel on a spindle. In an ideal world everyone would be concerned about the impression they were creating, or the information they were dispensing, but I suspect that this person does not even know enough to know what he doesn't know.

This also begs the question, how much influence do you think he really has?

Furthermore, I know more people that scrape with their chisels, straight or skewed, than cut properly with them. And, if an experienced turner took his bench chisel and turned a cylinder with no problems, what would you have to say about that?


...But...I guess he's just trying to sell cheap lathes by showing that it's cheap to Turn.:rolleyes: I think I'll go make a kite string holder now.:p

That is exactly what he is trying to do, and like anything else in this world, the phrase caveat emptor prevails. Being that it is Latin, it gives you an idea of how long people have had to beware! And perhaps his techniques serve him quite well for what he wants.

Bill

[John Hart]

Yup...I get your point Bill, but I guess what bothers me is that the particular lathe that he is selling would not be bought by an experienced turner. It would be bought by someone who has never done anything remotely close to turning. For that reason, proper tools should be shown to decrease the possibility of injury. But then that's an ethical argument. As far as I'm concerned, an experienced turner can use a shovel if he wants to.:)

[Keith Christopher]

Well I mean come on how badly can one get hurt from a lathe spinning powered by 4 D batteries ?



Good thing he's holding on for dear life with both hands.

And if he has a catch, I sure hope he's wearing protection - the lathe will fly off the dowel and smack him in the face."


I nearly spit water all over my keyboard when I read this.

[Mike Vickery]

My understanding is that wood chisel are more prone to breaking and that would be very dangerous. Also I would think with the small handle you would have leverage problems that could be dangerous.

[Bill Stevener]

My understanding is that wood chisel are more prone to breaking and that would be very dangerous. Also I would think with the small handle you would have leverage problems that could be dangerous.

Hi Mike,

I have been, some what very patiently, sitting back and reviewing the posts presented, with respect to the photo in my thread.

I placed a title on the thread, as "what not to do.
It is often said that a picture is worth a thousand words, or something like that. With so many new, wishing to be turners, just discovering this wonderful way to create a form of art, additionally with the amount of questions being asked, that so many of us just take for granted today, I felt very strongly that the photo was an extremely bad influence on one lacking any knowledge at all about turning.

In one comment that was noted, I was just wondering, what part of the "lot" would be the unsafe part?
Additional comments brought to mind the old saying -- "two wrongs do not make a wright.
Others could not see an unsafe act, that would be the cause an accident. Well someone must be watching over you.

Mike, I applaud your observations, as you are one that "sees what he is looking at.

A wood chisal is designed for a forward thrust and NOT designed for any form of leverage imposed on the same or by repeated downward thrusts from a spinning turning blank. The steal in a wood chisel can and will fracture and can be a cause of embedded shrapnel in ones self.
The only thing I may change in your post to this part is (would be) to IS.

The next point you noted is the short handle. Very good. Wonder why we pay so much for that extra amount of wood on a turning tool. Guess that's why wood chisels are so much cheaper. All you get is the short end of the stick.
The other verbiage I may take a liking to change in your post is (could be dangerous) and change it to IS EXTREAMLEY DANGROUS.

For any turners that don't see anything wrong with the picture, as John has noted, use a shovel if you wish.

For you folks just starting out, buy and use the tools for what they were designed for. The photo presents the wrong message, the tool in use is very unsafe and is the cause of an accident waiting to happen.

Don't become a primitive Pete!

Thanks for your post Mike,

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:) (CE):D

[Bill Grumbine]

A wood chisal is designed for a forward thrust and NOT designed for any form of leverage imposed on the same or by repeated downward thrusts from a spinning turning blank. The steal in a wood chisel can and will fracture and can be a cause of embedded shrapnel in ones self.
The only thing I may change in your post to this part is (would be) to IS.



Bill, I would really appreciate it if you could enlighten me, since I am obviously one of those unenlightened and inexperienced turners who don't seem to get it. How exactly is this wood chisel all that different from a turning chisel? I guess I am not nearly as experienced as you, but it sure looks a lot like my skew or my straight chisel. The big difference is in the single bevel instead of the double bevel. There is not even a lot of difference in the thickness.

I'll tell you what I do know. I know that anyone using a chisel of any type where the wood is subjecting it to "any form of leverage imposed on the same or by repeated downward thrusts" is not using it properly, regardless of who made it or for what they made it. A properly used skew or straight chisel meets the wood at a tangent and slices the wood. If you're subjecting your chisel to a beating, perhaps you should investigate your technique with a view to improving it.

I also know that while the steel in a bench chisel is different than that of a high speed steel chisel, it is not very different from older non HSS chisels. Do they fragment and shower the turner with splinters? I've never seen that happen, but hey, I've only been turning for 13 years, and taught hundreds of others to turn in my shop and in the shops of places like Woodcraft, the Woodturning Center, etc.

Now if you want to talk about the dangers of using old files, then we can talk about shattered steel, but wood chisels aren't the same thing.






The next point you noted is the short handle. Very good. Wonder why we pay so much for that extra amount of wood on a turning tool. Guess that's why wood chisels are so much cheaper. All you get is the short end of the stick.
The other verbiage I may take a liking to change in your post is (could be dangerous) and change it to IS EXTREAMLEY DANGROUS.



All that long handle is nice, but most people hold it at the tool rest with one hand, and the other is wherever it feels comfortable for the cut being made. A lot of the time that is right back of the ferrule. Simply put, all that handle is not always necessary - unless of course, you are subjecting that tool to a beating.




For any turners that don't see anything wrong with the picture, as John has noted, use a shovel if you wish.



As a matter of fact, a very famous turner (and the name slips my mind at the moment) did that very thing. He used a shovel to show that anything with a sharp edge can be made to cut on the lathe.

Does that make it a good idea? No. Does it make it so dangerous that we need to run around waving our arms in the air for fear of someone hurting themselves? NO. You don't like it and you say it is dangerous. Fine. I say different, and I will pit my skill and knowledge against anyone here on this forum to back up my words. I have taught hundreds of people to turn over the past 11 years, from elementary aged school children to grandparents in their 70s. A lot of people have come to me with their skew in their hand not knowing the first thing about how to use it, and go home with the skills to make themselves a good turner with it. This picture obviously has you all in a dither Bill, but the fact of the matter is, this guy is not going to hurt himself or anyone else any worse than an inexperienced turner with a skew or just about any other tool in their hand. I know, I've been there, and I have helped lots of others get past that point as well.

Bill

[Randy Meijer]

.....Also I would think with the small handle you would have leverage problems that could be dangerous.

Without knowing what the scale is on the picture, it isn't possible to know exactly how big/long that chisel is; but my guess is it is not a whole lot different than the little sets of chisels that "ALL" of the pencrafting suppliers sell to folks who want to turn smaller items. Not sure the size argument hits the mark unless we assume "ALL" of the suppliers out there are selling dangerous tools???

[Dave Fifield]

I'm finding it hard to see anything in the low-res undersized picture at all. How can you possibly tell what's going on in it? Are my eyes (monitor?) really that bad?.....

[Robert E Lee]

I don't think that the lathe in that picture would have the power to bend a soft screw driver. That maybe the wrong tool for the job but on that lathe I can't see it breaking a wood chisel
Bob.

[Mark Rios]

Yup...I get your point Bill, but I guess what bothers me is that the particular lathe that he is selling would not be bought by an experienced turner. It would be bought by someone who has never done anything remotely close to turning. For that reason, proper tools should be shown to decrease the possibility of injury. But then that's an ethical argument. As far as I'm concerned, an experienced turner can use a shovel if he wants to.:)



A shovel, NOW YOU'RE TALKIN'. That's the tool that I want to use when I start turnin'! :D

[sascha gast]

I gotta agree wit Bill Grumbinde here, I have done the same thing when I had my mini lathe and turned a pen blank, man, if i had to, I'd sharpen my car key and turn the pen. Now if I was turning a bowl on my Stubby with that thing I agree with Bill S, no way. but for such a tiny piece, I wouldn't be afraid for 1 second.

[Don Eddard]

On a full-sized lathe, it'd be crazy. On the Wilton mini, I'm with Sasha and Bill G. It's just a short-handled single bevel skew. No more dangerous than a cheap harbor freight turning chisel, and many of us here have used those and lived to tell about it.

I do agree with Bill S that it's a poor example to be showing to new turners, even if someone is in the business of getting people started turning on minimal dollars.

[Leo Pashea]

In my opinion, that action in the photo presents no more danger than using, as mentioned, a skew chisel, or a scraper.

[Ron Sardo]

Lets see...

I've used allen wrenches, open end wrenches, screw drivers, hack saw blades, sawzall blades, bandsaw blades, carving tools and even a kitchen knife to turn.

No reason wood chisels wouldn't work.

[Brett Baldwin]

It seems like there are an exceptional number of old posts being uncovered and argued lately.

[Bill Stevener]

On a full-sized lathe, it'd be crazy. On the Wilton mini, I'm with Sasha and Bill G. It's just a short-handled single bevel skew. No more dangerous than a cheap harbor freight turning chisel, and many of us here have used those and lived to tell about it.

I do agree with Bill S that it's a poor example to be showing to new turners, even if someone is in the business of getting people started turning on minimal dollars.

I am not one to generally pick at an old scab, but.

First, Thanks. That was the point in my post!

"I do agree with Bill S that it's a poor example to be showing to new turners, even if someone is in the business of getting people started turning on minimal dollars.[/quote]

Second, ??.
"and many of us here have used those and >*lived to tell about it."

>*But those that didn't----Can't.

[Gordon Seto]

I hate to admit it. I have been hit from a branch coming off a Oneway lathe(not mine), with a Sorby or Crown Pro PM gouge and Talon chuck when I tried the back hollowing after watching the video from Richard Raffan. Can I blame Oneway because two of the equipment were from them? I couldn't even learn the technique from a teaching video; I doubt anyone could have learned what should be learned from a small picture. We can't protect people for being naive.

I still not smart enough to find out what's wrong with the picture.
In the picture, the toolrest is very close to the blank; just the tool shaft itself (not counting the handle) is more than 10 times the tip overhang. That is plenty of leverage. If we are not having the tool over hang the tool rest a lot, we don't necessarily want a long handle for doing detail work.

I am not a fan of high carbon steel turning tools; but there are plenty of turners who swear by the old carbon steel tools for their final finish cut. A steel edge is a steel edge; the only thing matters is the included angle of the blade. I can't see the edge angle from the low resolution picture.

Any power tool is potentially dangerous, what happens to the common sense of getting more usage information or some lessons?

Would I recommend this set up? A definite "NO".

Gordon