New Rikon Mini Lathe

[Craig Fyock]

I purchased another mini-lathe at Christmas. I needed a second so my daughter and I could turn at the same time and besides who can have to many lathes. I have an older Rockwell/Delta I keep sey up for bowl work and a Jet Mini to do pens on.

I really love my Jet but thought I'd just check and see what was out there. My local WoodCraft store had just gotten in the Rikon Mini's and I really liked that all the handles were larger and appeared to be much sturdier than those on the Jet or the Delta. They all have a 1/2 HP motor. The Rikon is a 12 x16 rather than 10x14 and it weighes about 20 pounds more than the jet. So larger turning by 2" in height and length. Bed extensions and stands are also available like the other brands. The Rikon has #2 MT all the way around and also has 1x8 threading. The real factor
that sold me was the ease of belt change. The cover folds down and gives you really easy acces to the pulleys.

I have restrained from posting until I have put this machime through its paces. Lets just say my daughter gets to use the Jet now. I find that the Rikon has much more tourque than the jet. I can really melt a finish on a pen and am sure that it will handle smaller non spindle turning better than my jet due to more tourque and more weight (less vibration). The Rikon also has a 12 position indexing head.

The only negative I can say is I was under impressed with the Drive center and Live center that comes with it. I could not get the points of these two to line up and spin right. I replaced both before I did any turnin and the new ones lined up and spun together with no wobble or movement.

Hope this helps anyone who was looking at this lathe. WoodCraft has them and while I have no affiliation with them I do try thank them with my & as they do support the Freedom Pen Project and have nation wide Turnathons every year.

[Bill Stevener]

Hi Craig, thanks for an overview on the Rikon.
A fellow member of the turners forum, Mr. Bruce S. also praises the Rikon, as well as he works part time for Woodcraft.
I have a Jet vs mini, as well as, four other lathes. At this time I am very satisfied with the Jet mini for its intended use.
I took note to your satisfaction with the Rikon as it has demonstrated a grater torque, or has more torque than the Jet. I was wondering how the greater torque is accomplished, as you noted each having the same hp. of 1/2 ea.
Not downplaying the Rikon, looks like a sturdy lathe, just wondering how you established the greater torque value?

Thanks for your time,
Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Craig Fyock]

Funny you should mention that. I assumed a 1/2 HP electric motor was a 1/2HP electric moter. All I can assume is that there must be more than one way to rate it.

The statement about more tourque comes from the fact that when I apply SHellawax using the Jet I have to change rags often because it build up a hard layer of wax in the bottom of the rag.

Weh I used the Rikon I noticed that the hard build up only occured betwwen finish sessions and that when finishing another pin it built up enough friction to re-melt the wax build up in the rag. I never had this occur using the Jet. With both lathes being set at their max speed. Futhermore with the Jet I can or just about can stop it during finishing if I get real agressive with the "pinch" on the fiish rag (Not reccommeneded as it gets really hot) but with the Rikon there is no way Im going to stop it or bog it down. SO I assume this would be a tourque issue but I may be using the wrong term. Feel free and correct me if Im wrong. Thanks..Craig

[Bill Stevener]

Thanks for your reply Craig,
I can not dispute your approach to testing and evaluating the the torque, the way you have explained it. I am not all that savvy with the workings of all of the electric motors today. Maybe we can not relate hp with tq. in looking at one of features which may influence the purchase of a lathe. I am sure someone with the knowledge will splain this thoroughly.:confused:

John.----------:D ,

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Craig Fyock]

Well Bill I appreciate the question. I should have put that in the original post. While it wasnt to scientific it made my brain thinkit had more tourque. I do believe it applies a better finish due to melting wax off the rag and I assume onto the pen.Thanks again....Craig

[Bill Stevener]

Craig, I have a question, relative to the DAW. I do not have all of the info. in front of me. Will gather it up tomorrow and send a PM off to you.

Tune in again, you may ba able to help,

Thanks,

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[John Hart]

This is just a guess...cuz I have no experience with either lathe...But final HP output and torque is a function of all the workings of the mechanism within the machine...not just motor HP. For example, if you had two identical motors but had tighter bearings on one machine..you would realize more torque on the other machine, because the tighter bearings will rob you of power. Also, pulley ratios can come into play. If there is an electronic speed control, the excitation voltage and signal methodology is very key. MOSFET vs SCR drive devices have varying output power capabilities. Lots of reasons for torque loss...but like I said...I know nuthin' about neither lathe....just guessin'.

[Jim Ketron]

Is the Jet a VS?
I have the Non VS Jet at home and I used a VS machine at a bowl turning class at woodcraft. To make a long story short, I had to take the guy off the VS machine and put him on a reg Jet there was just no torque and it would bog down way to easy IMO and yes I used it and it was not him.
Don't know if it was that particular lathe or not but I was not impressed with the Jet VS lathe.

[Craig Fyock]

The Jet I have is the non-variable speed. Like the Rikon the speed change comes by moving the belts to another pulley location, Not an restate or electronic control.

I did notice that the drive belt on the Rikon appears to be of much higher quality (it is thicker, i believe wider) and appears to be more ridgid. It could be that the Rikon just transfers more of the energy to the headstock , but either way it appears to have more tourque.

[Ron Ainge]

In December I spent the better part of two days doing demos on a brand new Rikon lathe. I had so many problems with it that I know that I would never put my money out to purchase one. The first thing that went wrong was the hand wheel fell off before I started to turn with it. Next the came loose and I spent about 1 1/2 hours getting that back in it's proper place. Every time I tried to change the speed using the pulley system I could not get the motor to move far enough to allow the belt to be moved easily, Ihad to force the belt off of one pulley and then on to the other one. And lastly after the second day the belt had started to fray and would need to be replaced before much more use. I have spoke to other people who have used this same type of lathe and no one I know has very kind words for it. I think that they will have a fair machine when the work out all the bugs. The turning that was done on this lathe was really small work like bottle stoppers, ornaments, pens and the like.

I own a Jet VS Mini and I can attest to the ability to stall the thing if you don't know how to over come the motor capacity. I found out early on that if you do not have to variable speed control at least at half speed you can stall the motor quickly, it is harder to do when you have the power up at higher speeds. You can always stall any small lathe if you are making heavy cuts.

[Bill Stevener]

The comparison between two lathes, each having the same hp? (as stated in the spec.) and apparently having such a great difference in the torque out-put is becoming quite interesting. I fully understand losses generated with vs devices incorporated in the circuit. I also follow johns reply and agree with the somewhat tighter bearings, as well as some other factors, not always evident right up front. However, one would think these areas that contribute to torque loss, would only be evident through the use of electronic measuring equipment. Not physically measurable with the human hand.
If the bearings are that tight, to inflict a loss of torque that great, on one motor in comparison with another motor having, lets say, a free-er running bearing, one would think the tighter bearing would smoke in a very short period of time.
The concept of the belt being wider would not generate or transfer more torque, unless the measurement is taken when the thinner belt is slipping. The wider belt would contribute to loss of power with the added friction generated. Again, one would think only measurable, on a motor of the 1/2hp size with the aid of electronic equipment. Not really that noticeable with the human hand.
At a higher speed, somewhat more torque is experienced, although when subject to an outside force, it eventually catches up with itself (did I say that right??).
Anyway, hp. & tq. are interesting. If we look at horse power and the amount of torque a Clydesdale horse can generate walking on a "horse power", (tread mill), and compare the same with an Arabian, one with a lesser frame, there is quite a difference in the torque. Kinda funny, each being a horse.

I would just like to know, what really makes such a noticeable difference in the torque between a 1/2 hp motor installed on one lathe as installed on another, when such a small thing can be measured with the human hand.
Seems to me, the hp. rating (as noted in a spec) would not be a contributing influence used in evaluating the the qualities of a lathe, if in the same size and hp. range. One would think, the manufacturer would note the torque value. That would surely assist one, when placing check marks in boxes, when comparing a lathe for purchase.

Guess just another thing to ponder over when considering a new lathe.

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Andy Hoyt]

Bill - I have no idea if the two machines have same pulley sizes or not, but if they differed would that have any impact on this?

[Don Baer]

OK time to put my Physics degree to some use.

Hp=TorquexRPM/63000 if the torque is in inch lbs.

so a 1 hp motor running at 1750 RPM will priduce 36 inh lbs of torque and a 1/2 hp motor will produce 18 " lbs of torque.

Now assuming that there is a 2:1 speed up in the pulley between the motor and the headstock then as the speed is increased by 2 time the torque will decrees by 1/2. thus if the pulley is running at 3450 RPM then the torque at the head stock would be 9 inch lbs.
If the Rikon is geared a little less then the Jet then it would have more torque lets say the Rikon could be geared for 2400 RPM vs the Jet at 3450 then it would have more torque 13 inch lbs vs 9 inch lbs.
All this is assuming zero losses due to friction.




:D

[Bill Stevener]

OK Don, following this some what. Would not two spindles running at the same, top end speed, 3900 rpm, each powered by a 1/2 hp motor running at 1750 rpm have the same torque out-put?

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Don Baer]

Assuming that the friction losses were the same yes.

[John Hart]

Well ok...Lets talk about horses again. If you put a Clydesdale on a treadmill and ask him to run toward some beer, he will be able to run at a certain speed and burn a certain number of calories. If you place a drag on the treadmill, he will have to burn more calories to acheive the same speed...Loss of power.

The motor doesn't care about beer, it can only acheive up to 1/2 HP. When it is under a no-load condition, it runs freely and does not put out 1/2 HP. As you increase the load, the power consumption increases, and therefore the HP increases....until eventually, the motor is peaked and suffers a complete loss of power caused by the motor exceeding it's designed current/load limit.(Stall)

All devices in the mechanical circuit are additive to the total load experienced by the motor. This includes bearings, shaft alignment, pulley alignment, belt tension...then on to adding a 5 pound weight, misalignment between Head and Tail Stock, Pressure of the Live Center to the wood, Radial pressure caused by the wood grain, axial pressure on the bearing races, off-balanced wood etc....

After all these things are added up, the remaining available HP is what you have left to work with. So all I'm saying is you could probably put a Ammeter on the power line of both lathes under a no-load condition, and one of them will probably show a higher current draw, indicating that one is working harder than the other with no wood involved. Or, you can place your hand or a dull tool on the wood and apply pressure to see how much it takes to make the motor stall.

All the while, keep in mind that not all 1/2 HP motors are equal. Some companies will make same-rated motors with less than desireable laminations in their motor rotors and stators. I assume Jet and Rikon use different motor manufacturers.

Anyway...don't mean to be argumentative. Just was involved in one or two motor projects once.:)

[John Hart]

OK Don, following this some what. Would not two spindles running at the same, top end speed, 3900 rpm, each powered by a 1/2 hp motor running at 1750 rpm have the same torque out-put?

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

This is a true statement....however, if one is running at a higher current level and closer to its limit, then it will take less pressure to stop it. This is considering that they are AC induction motors.

[Bill Stevener]

Well ok...Lets talk about horses again. If you put a Clydesdale on a treadmill and ask him to run toward some beer, he will be able to run at a certain speed and burn a certain number of calories. If you place a drag on the treadmill, he will have to burn more calories to acheive the same speed...Loss of power.

The motor doesn't care about beer, it can only acheive up to 1/2 HP. When it is under a no-load condition, it runs freely and does not put out 1/2 HP. As you increase the load, the power consumption increases, and therefore the HP increases....until eventually, the motor is peaked and suffers a complete loss of power caused by the motor exceeding it's designed current/load limit.(Stall)

All devices in the mechanical circuit are additive to the total load experienced by the motor. This includes bearings, shaft alignment, pulley alignment, belt tension...then on to adding a 5 pound weight, misalignment between Head and Tail Stock, Pressure of the Live Center to the wood, Radial pressure caused by the wood grain, axial pressure on the bearing races, off-balanced wood etc....

After all these things are added up, the remaining available HP is what you have left to work with. So all I'm saying is you could probably put a Ammeter on the power line of both lathes under a no-load condition, and one of them will probably show a higher current draw, indicating that one is working harder than the other with no wood involved. Or, you can place your hand or a dull tool on the wood and apply pressure to see how much it takes to make the motor stall.

All the while, keep in mind that not all 1/2 HP motors are equal. Some companies will make same-rated motors with less than desireable laminations in their motor rotors and stators. I assume Jet and Rikon use different motor manufacturers.

Anyway...don't mean to be argumentative. Just was involved in one or two motor projects once.:)

John,
I hope nothing on my end would ever be the cause of any arguments when it comes to the electrical end. You are the man when it comes to any questions I may have in the final out-put of what, how and why it goes around end.
I totally agree with all of the factors you pointed out above. Didn't mean to get the horse drunk.:eek: The most being the manufacturing and quality of the components used in the make-up of the motor.

As the review of two lathes of different manufactures has been presented, each supporting the use of a 1/2 hp motor, I believe it would be beneficial to one considering the purchase of a new lathe if the manufacturer would note the torque rating of the spindle out-put. This would be another tool to use in choosing a lathe, other than which one has a better chip resistance in the paint used.

I guess they can all use the hp--tq. forumula and give the same tq. value, if the same hp. motor is used.

Just a nice thing that some take the time to compare "hands-on" experiences with two different lathes of equal?? hp. so others can use that as a tool during a purchase choice.

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[John Hart]

You see...that's why I don't want horses. They drink too much and are a bad influence on my kids.;)

[Randy Meijer]

I think that manufacturer's HP ratings are about like car makers gas milage figures!! Do you know anyone who ever got the gas milage promised on the window sticker?? There is "NO" reason to assume that the JET 1/2 horse motor is capable of the same power output as the Rikon 1/2 horse motor or visa versa just because both are labeled as 1/2 horse motors. While I am sure that all of the suggested possibilities for the differences in performance may contribute marginally; I have no doubt that the Rikon motor just works harder than the JET.

[Cliff Bishop]

I have been turning on my Rikon for the last six months and overall have been very happy with it. It is a tough unit and performs very well, I agree a little clunky changing belt speeds but no big deal. Some loose bolts at first but after tightening up everything it has been a fine tool from pens to bowls no problem. I think it will be even a better unit after a few years when all bugs are worked out. I would buy another one as it stands right now.

[paul ashman]

Just another 2 cents here, but if you are looking at the rikon and the jet mini, then make sure to check out the new jet 1220. It has a 3/4 hp motor with 12 inch swing and 20 between centers. I have had mine for 6 months now and love it.

[Mike Lipke]

Though both the Jet Mini and the Rikon Mini claim 1/2 hp, the Rikon motor is, I believe, pulls 2 more amps than the Jet.

Manufacturers can claim almost anything they want to as far as hp. I have a shop vac that claims 6 hp, but that is obviously absurd.

On two similar motors, the one with the most amps draw will provide the most power.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mike,

With all due respect, I don't know that I can agree with that statement. The reason is that some motors are more efficient than others. In other words, I can have a motor drawing 12 amps....another motor drawing 10 amps but is more efficient and as a result they both have the same resultant h/p. This is one area where I think manufacturers can really take advantage of the consumer. I truly wish there was a standard method of measuring h/p of motors that all manufacturers had to use so the consumer could make an accurate comparison.

[John Cooper2]

Just my two pennies, I had bought a new ricon then a week later I aquired a slightly used Jet. Had time to spend with both. Kept the Ricon, sold the Jet. Yes the Jet was slightly used when I got it, but I don't think it had more than an hour on it when I got it.

Both are good machines, Liked a couple of the features on the Ricon better. The Ricon seamed to be a much smoother machine. Bought it on sale at Woodcraft for under $200.00, don't regret it for a second.

John

[Mike Lipke]

That's why I said "similar" motors.
If you look thru a Grainger catalogue, you will see what I mean.
Similar types of motors by different manufacturers and price points come amazingly close on aperage draw for the same hp.

[Dick Strauss]

Different companies are more or less conservative with their ratings. For example, Delta uses a 9.8A/110V motor and conservatively calls it a 3/4hp unit. Harbor Freight calls their DC a 2 hp unit even though the motor draws 14A (this is a max of 1.25hp in actuality). My Rigid shop vac uses 9A and they call it a 3.5 peak hp unit (what a joke!).

A good rule of thumb to determine the real HP is to take the amps/11=HP for 110V (or Amps/5.5 for 220V) which translates to a 62% efficiency. So an 11A motor should be close to 1hp. If a motor were 100% efficient, it would take only 7A to deliver 1hp. However, most motors are less than 75% efficient.

IMHO the current tells a more realistic story than any other measure given the wide latitude in hp ratings.