New lathe; first of many questions - sharpening

[Gary Herrmann]

I use scary sharp for my chisels and plane irons and am very happy with that process - altho lapping can take awhile. I don't do it freehand, I use a honing guide. Some day, I'll free hand.

For turning, I'll need curved tools, so I'm beginning to think of a powered sharpening system. I'm leaning towards either the lapsharp or the Veritas Mk II system and wanted to hear your feedback.

I've read that a lot of folks here like the Tormek and the Wolverine jig. Because I do more flat work than turning (none yet) I feel I'll get more utility out of the "record player" approach. I'm using hand tools more in my flat work, and I'm sure that will continue to increase.

Will it require a great deal of touch to be able to roll a gouge on the disk to get a fine edge? I'm willing to listen to arguments for a grinding wheel, but intuitively, I just like the idea of the platter style better.

Thanx

[John Hart]

Gary...I've been wanting to try the platter method forever...but just haven't pulled the trigger on buying it. I think that I would use it if I had a lot of time, but in most cases, I just want to hit the wheel while I'm turning to get a fresh edge and fear that the platter might be filled with shavings if it was anywhere near the lathe. Just rambling.:rolleyes:

[Bob Noles]

Gary,

Being a neander at heart myself, and now entering the vortex of turning, I think you will find the opposite is going to apply to what we have learned about tool sharpening. I think the largest objective and one that John eluded to is the time factor. When you are in the middle of turning something, speed is going to come into play in getting that tool back to work. While I have all the respect in world for the Tormek, I simply feel that the grinder for lathe tools makes more sense. As a matter of fact, I see a really good argument to have both in our shop :eek: :D :D :D

Lathe tool sharp and hand tool sharp have 2 different meanings IMHO. If you try to put a scary sharp edge on a lathe tool, you are going to spend a lot of time doing it and it is going to roll in most cases. (skews excepted (maybe)) :p

This should turn out to be a good thread.

[Mike Ramsey]

From what I've read here, I don't think a scary sharp edge would
last but a few seconds on a turning tool...

[Dennis Peacock]

I think the largest objective and one that John eluded to is the time factor. When you are in the middle of turning something, speed is going to come into play in getting that tool back to work. While I have all the respect in world for the Tormek, I simply feel that the grinder for lathe tools makes more sense. As a matter of fact, I see a really good argument to have both in our shop.

This should turn out to be a good thread.

Bob,

Here's my take on this. I have two 8" grinders in my shop. 1 is dedicated to a Wolverine setup for speedy lathe tool sharpening. I also have a Tormek with most all the jigs for the Tormek. Before I got the grinders and Wolverine setup, I used my Tormek exclusively for ALL my sharpening needs.
Once I switched over to the Wolverine setup I realized pretty soon that my tools didn't stay as sharp as long as an edge coming off the Tormek.

For speed and getting back to the lathe? You are only primarily concerned about sharpening your gouges. Requires 1 jig for the Wolverine and the grinder. The Tormek require 1 jig and the water cooled wheel. I do notice that I loose a little more metal off the tool via the grinder than with the Tormek. I've also noticed that the edge off the Tormek is a finer cutting edge than off the grinder. This is due to the Tormek having a 220/1000 grit wheel and the grinder is 100 grit or 120 grit. Grinding? The tool tip gets warm to hot, and off the Tormek the tip is as cool as the water bath the wheel is turning through. The grinding wheel does build particles that requires dressing the wheel more frequently that the Tormek since the water bath carries most of the metal particulate away during the process of sharpening.

Now, don't get me wrong here and this is only my "opinion" and "experiences" with both. I do use both. I use the grinder the most when roughing, but also use it when finishing as well. When I want a cleaner edge that will last a little longer? I go to the Tormek.

To me, the Tormek brings me economy of the turning tools as less metal is removed during the sharpening/grinding process. Both take me just as long to "freshen" the tool cutting edge, so to me, that's a toss up for time sake. The key here is "freshen" the tool edge. I've seen some that sharpen the tool edge enough to cost them several thousandths of HSS at each sharpening session.

Overall? I'm pro for BOTH setups. I like them both and I use them both as they BOTH bring the key thing to sharpening my turning tools....consistency of bevel angle and edge sharpening. This point alone saves a lot on the cost of your turning tools over time. I'm not one that can "freehand" an edge on a turning tool and I learned this early on. This is why I have ways of getting my tools sharp for the work I need them to do.

I'm not here to fight about which is better....Wolverine or Tormek, but only here to share what I've learned over the past 3 years of working at the lathe and sharpening my tools at both the Wolverine and the Tormek.

Confused? I sure hope not....but either setup will serve you very well for a very long time.

[Bob Noles]

Dennis,

I am the last to argue especially with a treasured cyber friend with turning knowledge light years beyond mine ;)

I don't even own a Tormek (yet) :) , so I am only presenting an opinion formed by what I have heard from others. Now that I have heard your opinion, I can assure you that I will remain with an open mind in using it for "turning tools" as well as for my "scary sharp" tools :D

Seriously though Dennis, it is my dream to have both machines in my shop someday.

Thanks for straightening my thinking out :eek:

[Jim Dunn]

So far, and I don't have any sharpening equipment to compare to, I've sharpened my spindle gouges by hand. I then use a piece of 800 grit sand paper on a granite plate, you could use a piece of glass, to sorta hone an edge. I can tell the difference after honing as the tool cuts better. I only grind when absolutely necessary. I hone the tool quite frequently and so far it has worked.

[Gary Herrmann]

The conversation raises an interesting point which I hadn't thought of yet - because I don't know nuthin about turning yet. Even if I decide to go the platter route, it seems like I wouldn't need to go as high through the grits to get that razor edge like on a chisel. I guess this is because the tool is being held to a spinning chunk of wood and needs the "strength" of having a less fine edge. So how high do I need to go? Jim does 80 grit; It sounds like Dennis may go to 1000 on the Tormek.

I go to 2000 when I want a really sharp edge for flat work. Whats a good rule of thumb for turning tools?

[Mike Ramsey]

I go to 120 with 8" slow speed grinder and wolverine jigs,
but thats only because thats what I have.....Works very
well for me...

[tod evans]

gary, on any edge tool regardless of use the finer you take the edge the longer it will last....picture the ragged edge of steel off an 80 grit wheel, the little"fingers" of metal will quickly break off at random. now picture a highly polished edge there are no weak protrusions hanging in thin air to break off when they come in contact with the wood....02 tod

[Mike Ramsey]

Uh oh! I think we are gonna do that sharpening thing (minor skirmish)
again :D .

[Jim Dunn]

Gary I only grind when I feel it's absolutely necessary. I hone much more frequently than I would probably have to if I had a sharpening system for lathe tools. That said I'm going to buy a Norton wheel of 120 grit and see if I still need to hone as often or as much. Remember, I'm just getting into this turning stuff and am as interested as you in the responses here.

Jim

[Andy Hoyt]

Gary - When you say "Platter" are you referring to a tool such as this?

31831

If so, I found that for turning tools it had little or no value. Too slow, too much time, stone too soft. Thusly, it's shown here all boxed up ready to go to a new home

[Gary Herrmann]

Gary - When you say "Platter" are you referring to a tool such as this?

31831

If so, I found that for turning tools it had little or no value. Too slow, too much time, stone too soft. Thusly, it's shown here all boxed up ready to go to a new home

I think so Andy. Something where the wheel is parallel to the ground, rather than perpendicular like the Tormek.

[Glenn Clabo]

Well said tod...That's what I've been trying to say with too many words. I've just now started the spinny tool thang...but everything I've sharpened with the Tormek has lasted longer and worked better...and safer than any dry sharpening I've done.

[John Hart]

I'm going to leave myself open to harsh criticism here, but I really need to know something... Over the past few months, I've found that my best edge on the grinder has been acheived by approaching the wheel 90 degrees from where I should. For example, on a gouge, I'll allow the spinning wheel to touch the beveled surface horizontally rather than vertically. It seems that I acheive a more mirrored surface, right off the grinder and it takes away the tendency to inflict the tiny protrusions that Tod is talking about. I think I am getting a good edge because the tools seems to cut better and last longer. Where am I going wrong?

[tod evans]

Well said tod...That's what I've been trying to say with too many words. I've just now started the spinny tool thang...but everything I've sharpened with the Tormek has lasted longer and worked better...and safer than any dry sharpening I've done.

glenn, it`s a trade off, speed vs edge quality and everybody has their preferance. doesn`t make any way better as long as the tool cuts:) i just posted my observations.....and i don`t sharpen with any of the "approved" methods, no tormek, no wolverine, no dry grinder.......homemade honing wheel. works for me....02 tod

[Gary Herrmann]

gary, on any edge tool regardless of use the finer you take the edge the longer it will last....picture the ragged edge of steel off an 80 grit wheel, the little"fingers" of metal will quickly break off at random. now picture a highly polished edge there are no weak protrusions hanging in thin air to break off when they come in contact with the wood....02 tod

OK, thanks for the clarification tod. That makes sense to me. I would think turning tools have a higher bevel angle than the 20 or 25 degrees I put on my chisels for paring or light chopping. The higher angle should make it stand up to more abuse. Again, a guess - I'd have to look at a turning tool to verify that.

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis,
I am the last to argue especially with a treasured cyber friend with turning knowledge light years beyond mine ;)

I don't even own a Tormek (yet) :) , so I am only presenting an opinion formed by what I have heard from others. Now that I have heard your opinion, I can assure you that I will remain with an open mind in using it for "turning tools" as well as for my "scary sharp" tools :D

Seriously though Dennis, it is my dream to have both machines in my shop someday.

Thanks for straightening my thinking out :eek:

Bob,

Not my real intentions at all to be "downing" anyone's opinion or experiences. I just simply wanted to share what I've learned, experienced and mumbled about over the past 3 years of sharpening my turning tools. Maybe I'm way off balance here....but I only know what I've learned through experience. Please accept my most sincere apollogies if I seemed to be attacking your thoughts.

[Dennis Peacock]

The conversation raises an interesting point which I hadn't thought of yet - because I don't know nuthin about turning yet. Even if I decide to go the platter route, it seems like I wouldn't need to go as high through the grits to get that razor edge like on a chisel. I guess this is because the tool is being held to a spinning chunk of wood and needs the "strength" of having a less fine edge. So how high do I need to go? Jim does 80 grit; It sounds like Dennis may go to 1000 on the Tormek.

I go to 2000 when I want a really sharp edge for flat work. Whats a good rule of thumb for turning tools?

Gary,

Excellent points here. I got to 120 off the grinder and only to 220 grit off the Tormek. 1000 grit would make too fragile an edge for turning IMHO.

[Mark Cothren]

Once I switched over to the Wolverine setup I realized pretty soon that my tools didn't stay as sharp as long as an edge coming off the Tormek.

Hey Dennis... when did you trade your JIMverine for a Wolverine? :D

[Dennis Peacock]

Hey Dennis... when did you trade your JIMverine for a Wolverine? :D

My JIMverine gets used every time I crank up the lathe. Jim really needs to start up the Ketron Toolworks. ;) :D

[Bob Noles]

Bob,

Not my real intentions at all to be "downing" anyone's opinion or experiences. I just simply wanted to share what I've learned, experienced and mumbled about over the past 3 years of sharpening my turning tools. Maybe I'm way off balance here....but I only know what I've learned through experience. Please accept my most sincere apollogies if I seemed to be attacking your thoughts.

Dennis,

No apology needed. I did not take it as an attack at all, just the opposite as a matter of fact. Sharing of your experience is always welcome in my court.

The Tormek is intriguing to me and I know it is from my neander interests and a desire for proper sharpening of those tools. Like I said, I do hope to one day have one in my shop for that purpose, but now you have awakened thoughts of new uses for this machine in my shop as well.

Dennis, your opinion is of value to me, so please do not ever apologize for offering it.

[Chris Barton]

I'm going to leave myself open to harsh criticism here, but I really need to know something... Over the past few months, I've found that my best edge on the grinder has been acheived by approaching the wheel 90 degrees from where I should.

John, I have always thought of you as a kind of 90* out of phase guy:) . I don't know why your method would be better or seem better. However, regarding the original question, I have both the Tormek and Wolverine and they are both great systems. I do like the Wolverine for my turning tools best. While you do want a sharp edge for turning it is more like the sharp edge of a hatchet versus the sharp edge you would put on a plane blade which I liken to a sharp edge on a knife. I suppose you can do the same with the tormek but, it takes much longer and it is not as simple.

[Jeff Farris]

Gary, I have been watching this thread for the last couple of days trying to decide when and how deep to jump in. First, let me suggest that you and anyone interested in various methods of sharpening turning tools read the following thread Not getting the results... (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=30472)

Re: Record player sharpening systems...

I think that you were thinking more along the lines of the Veritas sandpaper system instead of Andy's (soon to be shipped to another unsuspecting victim :cool: ) Delta horizontal Japanese waterstone. I don't think you'll find many fans of either platter or horizontal stone systems here on the Turner's Forum. Most of the stone systems are way too soft and neither they nor the platter systems have any accommodation for round tools. While I rarely add anything to a thread that I cannot back up, I would look carefully at how the sandpaper sheets are going to hold up to shaping (rather than sharpening) gouges. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that creating a fingernail grind would be very hard on even the coarsest available sheets. As for comparing TORMEK to the Veritas for flat work, I could bore you with my analysis, but it isn't pertinent to this forum. If it comes up in the General or Neander forums, I might have some things to say.

Now, to address some of the issues raised in and in response to Gary's question, I think it is time for the SMC version of Discovery Channel's Myth Busters

Myth #1: The TORMEK takes longer than a dry grinder to sharpen a turning tool.

Truth: While the initial shaping of a tool the first time might take slightly longer on a TORMEK than on a dry grinder, if you follow the guidance TORMEK gives you resharpening on a TORMEK is faster and easier than with any other method.

Myth #2: Finely honed edges on turning tools are going to "roll" or dull very quickly.

Truth: If the edge "rolls" you had the wrong bevel angle on it in the first place. Given any bevel angle, a coarse ground edge will dull before a honed edge rolls or dulls. See the above linked thread for a rather lengthy explanation of how this happens at the cutting edge. The myth began with and is perpetuated by turners using dry grinders. Granted, before TORMEK was around, the time invested in honing an edge was hard to justify. Hand honing simply does not make sense on turning tools. But, when you can achieve the same results in a couple of minutes, you'll find that the investment of those couple of minutes are rewarded with much better edge life and a much nicer finish on your piece (which means less sanding).


Myth #3. Looking at a factory edge tells you what the tool should look like.

Truth: Just like chisels and plane irons that come in a package marked "Requires Honing Before Use", turning tools are not delivered properly shaped or properly sharpened. Some are close. Most aren't even in the ball park. I have seen scrapers with bevel angles of 20 to 25 degrees hanging on store walls (should be 45 to 70).

Dennis Peacock Your homework assignment is to take your favorite bowl gouge that you have been sharpening on your TORMEK -- and this time -- grade your stone to 1000, refine the bevel, set the jig up on the honing wheel side, buff the bevel for a pass or two, carefully deburr the flute with the profiled honing wheel and then report the results from your lathe back to the class. :D If the edge really is too fragile, your tool geometry is off.

[tod evans]

jeff, thanks for explaining in greater detail what i tried to say in a paragraph.....02 tod

[Bob Noles]

Jeff,

Glad to see you jump in here and dispell some myths and and incorrect information that even I was just passing along. I have been interested in the Tormek for a good while, but could not justify the premium price for limited use on my neander tools alone. After looking at the arguments and input from good folks like Dennis, I now see where I could expand the usefullness of a Tormek over to other areas in the shop like lathe tools. This would certainly help justify the price and make the tool very affordable with all things considered.

Jeff, I will most likely be in touch with you soon.

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis Peacock Your homework assignment is to take your favorite bowl gouge that you have been sharpening on your TORMEK -- and this time -- grade your stone to 1000, refine the bevel, set the jig up on the honing wheel side, buff the bevel for a pass or two, carefully deburr the flute with the profiled honing wheel and then report the results from your lathe back to the class. :D If the edge really is too fragile, your tool geometry is off.

Hey Jeff.....

I'm always "off"....in the head. :p :rolleyes: :D

I will do as you have requested. BUT....I want to do this by pics and by the following steps:
1. Bowl gouge on a dry blank with the gouge edge off my JIMverine and dry grinder with my 120 grit wheel. Pic and results.
2. Bowl gouge and the same dry blank with the gouge edge off my Tormek at 220 grit. Pic and results.
3. Bowl gouge and the same dry blank with the gouge edge off my Tormek at 1000 grit and honed. Pic and results.

Sound ok? Any guidelines you'd like for me to follow for this process?

[Jeff Farris]

Sounds like a plan, but in addition to surface finish, give us some indication of edge life. That's tough without a serious investment in turning stock and time, but if you could comment on how long each of those edges last, it would be great.

[Tom Sontag]

I am new to turning and new to Tormek and agree with everything Jeff said. Possible exception: significant reshaping on the Tormek does take significantly longer than slapping a tool on a highspeed dry grinder. BUT, and this is important to me, the geometry will be exactly right.

A finely honed edge is important for finishing cuts, maybe less so on roughing. But we are usually talking about a minute or two to go from 220 to 2000, so why not?

ps - Gary, check your PM

[tod evans]

i`d be interested in seeing the results of this experiment so i`ll bump `er to the top.......02 tod