Questions about ebonizing walnut

[Dan Rider]

Last weekend, I was reading up on how to ebonize walnut wood using steel wool in a vinegar solution. I decided to prepare a sample and give it a try. I put one #000 steel wool pad into a glass jar containing about 1/2 litre (1 pint) of white vinegar and closed the lid. After a couple of hours, I could see bubbles forming and pressurizing the jar, so I removed the lid and have left it sitting open for more than 5 days now (at room temperature).

I was expecting to see a blackish mixture forming within 24 hrs, but after more than 5 days, the vinegar is still crystal clear. :confused: Is it supposed to take more than 24hrs? More than 5 days? Was I supposed to add a catalyst? Would #0000 steel wool have worked better? Would an open shallow dish have made a difference (more exposure to air/oxygen)? Is this clear vinegar now "transformed" and ready to ebonize?

After the solution is ready, I was planning to wipe/brush on, wait, wipe off, just like stain. I'm also finding contradicting information on whether to wipe the wood down (after ebonizing) with ammonia to "neutralize" the vinegar residue.

Any tips or suggestions would be helpful. Thanks, Dan.

[Wes Bischel]

Dan,
I'm no expert on the subject, just used this mixture a few times.

What I have found, especially with some steel wools, is the need to wash the oil off it before attempting to turn it to rust. The oil makes the transition much slower or stops it all together. I think the shallow dish/air exposure would help. Also, a bit of salt water spray really helps to move things along.
I followed the instructions on this site and had good luck:

http://www.joewoodworker.com/ruststain.htm

Once I had the solution started, I have added to it every so often - kind of like sourdough starter. It worked extremely well on oak, and pretty good on walnut.

As far as application, I put two or three "coats" on, then wiped off. I did not neutralize it. I also used an ebony stain on the oak which gave me a black-black which I could not achieve with either the stain or the solution alone.

Good luck,
Wes

[Shelley Bolster]

Talk about timing Dan........I just finished (my first time) ebonizing about 90 pegs this morning when I read your post. Big Mike was the first to tell me about ebonizing.......he didn't give me exact measurements to go by so I just sorta winged it. I think I used around 2 cuts of white vinegar poured on top of 2 rolls of 0000 steel wool - the only grit I had on hand. After a couple of days I couldn't see any discernible difference - the vinegar still looked really clear. I tore the steel wool apart hoping to speed up the process. I really have no idea if it helped or not, perhaps I was just trying to rush things but after 10 days this is what the "brew" looks like.

I also included a picture of two oak pegs.....the one on the left was treated once - the right one, twice. (I used needle-nose pliers to dip them into brew for about one second ) The other pic shows the pegs all dipped twice. I played with it on a couple of other scraps......the small piece on the bottom was my test piece of oak, on top of that was a piece of fir, then a strip of pine and lastly a piece of birch ply that I used to stir the solution.
I ran out of oak and I need to make about the same amount of pegs again, does anyone have any idea how long this brew will keep?? Wes, you mentioned you add to it like sourdough starter...do you leave the steel wool in it or do you just add a little vinegar every so often?

[tod evans]

looking good shelley, you`ll notice that oak reacts better with this solution...i`ve read that it`s due to the amount of tannin in the oak? but i`m no chemist......02 tod

[Jim Becker]

Other options:

1) India Ink
2) Black dye followed by black pigment stain

[Dan Rider]

Wes - I checked the link you gave at joewoodworker. I'm starting a second batch with rusty steel wool instead of fresh clean stuff. I'm not going to add salt though. Thanks for the tip.

Shelley - My mix doesn't look like yours, but it is starting to yellow and discolor a bit. I'll leave it another week or so. I cut pegs similar to yours to dip into the solution, and they did turn black. (sorry, no pics) The end-grain turned black almost instantly, but the side/face grain took a minute of so. Perhaps my mix isn't quite strong enough yet. Thanks for the pics, they were helpful.

Jim - I don't know anything about inks or dyes, and like with anything else unknown, I'm hesitant. Thought I'd try and get the hang of this vinegar/steel wool thing first.

[Reg Mitchell]

shelly, heres the link someone gave to me
http://www.joewoodworker.com/ruststain.htm\
hope it helps :)

[Wes Bischel]

Shelley,
Sorry, just saw your post and question. Actually I've added some vinegar and some nails that had a head start on rusting (pre rusted? no, how about stain starter!:D ) I added the nails because I didn't need the solution right away and figured they could slowly rust away. It looks like your solution is working really well!

So is this considered "Better woodworking through Chemestry"?

Wes

[Shelley Bolster]

I have to tell you Wes......I was completely messmerized by the process. Taking it out of the solution and watching before my eyes it change color - within seconds, was really cool. OK - I don't get out often but a dye is a dye - a stain a stain.......this is strictly chemical reaction. By the way, a few hours later, the fir in the above picture turned almost as dark as the oak....just took a lot longer for the reaction. Thanks for the hints.



The end-grain turned black almost instantly, but the side/face grain took a minute of so. Perhaps my mix isn't quite strong enough yet.


Mine looked like yellowish slew water for several days - I think it took about 10 days to 2 weeks to get it where you see it there. Patience Dan - you will get an ugly looking brew in no time! :eek:

[Brandon Shew]

There are oragnic compounds in the wood known as Tannins. Tannins are found in many plant species including tea and wine grapes among other things. Tannins are what gives tea the slightly bitter taste at the end. Wines get some tannin from the grapes and some from the wood casks (oak) that wine is aged in.

The "ebonizing" comes from a chemical reaction between the tannins in the wood and the dissolved steel wool/vinegar solution. The rusty look of the solution comes from the fact that there is enough water in the vinegar to rust the steel before it completely dissolves, but the rust color has no effect on the chemical reaction between the tannins and the solution. Most people shred the steel wool before dropping in in the vinegar solution to speed up the degredation. Because it takes a while for the steel to dissolve, the water catches up and turns the solution rust colored.

I don't think that adding nails will help speed anything up in the process as it will take the nails longer to dissolve. Shredding the steel wool ahead of time should help it dissolve faster as will increased temperatures to a point - i.e. keeping it in your heated house vs. cold garage (don't put it on the stove.)

Some woods take this process better than others. Oak has a high concentration of tannins, but this process tends to turn Red Oak into more of a deep purplish color. White Oak will turn black as will many other woods with a high tannin concentration. Not sure about walnut though.

While this is a nice "Organic" type of dye process it does not work on all woods, and there are other natural dyes out there that do as good a job or better with less wait time.

[Wes Bischel]

I don't think that adding nails will help speed anything up in the process as it will take the nails longer to dissolve.

Welcome to the Creek Brandon. I hope you can introduce yourself when you feel comfortable.

I hope I didn't imply that the nails would work faster - I added them and more vinegar to a batch of brew that was already working - just to refill what has been used. If I gave that impression, I'm glad you corrected it.

To your other point, I have only used the brew on red oak and walnut, both woods high in tannins - easily accessible and relatively inexpensive - also, depends on the look I want - heavy grain (oak) or recessive grain (walnut).

Wes

[Jim DeLaney]

...White Oak will turn black as will many other woods with a high tannin concentration. Not sure about walnut though...

Walnut works very well. I just did some yesterday, for some drawer pulls. Got a deep, even blackening.

I just did a fifteen or so second dip - no soaking - and the color seems to be about 1/64" or so deep on edge grain, maybe a bit more in the end grain.

[Randy Looney]

I have used the Solution several times and have 2 quarts of it made up now. I have used it on Oak, Cedar, Poplar with great success and accidentally on Pine and Plywood. I have done a little testing an it will change the color of the wood with in a couple of hours but it takes longer than if you let it set for a couple of days.

I use 0000 Steel Wool covered in Vinegar and have found that when you use it do not use it from your mixing container unless you want it much darker because the tannins make your brew darker over time due to the transfer from brush to container.

[Barry Lee Loewen]

Howdy All, I'm just wondering if anyone knows if this finish would be considered food safe?? I would love to try it on some of my Coffee Scoops with a Organic Flax Seed Oil and Orange Wax finish. Its all natural products and one would think it would be. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Barry

[Barry Lee Loewen]

Just wanted to move this up and check for opinions again. Any thoughts on wether or not this would be considered a food safe finish??
Thanks

[Jim Becker]

Barry, the "ebonizing" that Shelly shows in her Feb 2006 post is only the first step...it gets the piece dark. This is a chemical reaction to compounds in the wood with those introduced externally. Most folks will finish further, too. All finishes sold today are "food safe" (there really isn't such a designation) once fully cured.

[Pat Zabinski]

Any thoughts on wether or not this would be considered a food safe finish??

Caveat: I am no chemist and have no ties to FDA ... (i.e., don't rely on my posting).

My understanding is that the coloration is due to the reaction between the iron dissolved in the water/vinegar and the acid in the wood. The iron itself should not be much of a problem when in its clear state (it's in a lot of drinking water). However, most steel products (including steel wool?) contain some amount of undesired metals such as lead (just a byproduct of recycling metal), which is known to be bad for you, albeit the concentration of lead is likely to be very small.

If I ventured a guess, there is likely to be some small amounts of inedible materials in the finish. To be on the safe side, I would avoid it on any surfaces that directly contacted food.

I might consider using ebonized wood when used on trim/exterior surfaces that do not directly contact food -AND- when coated with several layers of good finish. However, I don't know if the lead or other metals will leach through the exterior finish, so I'd use with great caution or contact someone smart before I used it.

Personally, lead is dangerous enough that I avoid it even in trace quantities.

[Dennis Peacock]

Barry,

First of all, Welcome to SMC!!!! Glad to have you here at The Creek. :D

To answer your question, I don't really know since there's nothing in the form of a "topcoat" to prevent it from being "exposed" over time with use. Pat has ya covered on trace metals and such. I would have to say that I wouldn't do it. I'd use a water soluble dye, like Trans Tint and use that, coat with my oil mix, let dry a few days, seal coat with shellac and apply the orange wax.

[Barry Lee Loewen]

Thanks for the input, I think I'm going to try one and run it through its paces (washing etc.) and see how the color holds up. I'm stiving to keep my products as natural and organic as possible, and it seems to me this natural chemical reaction fits that criteria. As far as trace metals are concerned I'm thinking they would be extremly minute, cooking in cast Iron pots and pans or even Aluminum for that matter would likley give you far higher trace amounts, than Scooping dry Coffee grounds with a dry scoop anyday. Plain old food coloring makes a great and cheap wood dye as well, but it needs to be coated with something (schellac, lacquer etc.) none of which I would classify as food safe. With this natural process once the wood has changed color I think it will probably stay black, even after its been thouroughly washed and all traces of the vinegar solution have been removed. Time will tell and I'll be sure to post my results along with some pics after my test run. It could be awhile though as I plan on using old nails instead of steel wool. I just happen to have a pail full of somewhat rusty ones. Off to the shop wish me luck. :-)

[Charlie Plesums]

... Plain old food coloring makes a great and cheap wood dye as well, but it needs to be coated with something (schellac, lacquer etc.) none of which I would classify as food safe....
Shellac is edible... it is used to coat food and medicine... melts in your mouth, not in your hands, etc. Lacquer has some pretty nasty solvents, but is also a natural product after the solvents evaporate (but I don't know if FDA has approved eating lacquer, like they have shellac). Most finger nail polish is lacquer, and people still chew their nails. Now that lead paint has been outlawed for decades, most finishes are harmless once they have cured (which is why paint containing lead was outlawed).