A New Saw....

[Brian Dormer]

<mini gloat> My new Craftsman 22114 arrived today <end gloat>

Now the trouble begins: <begin vent>

1. The darn thing is in a 27 x 39 box

2. Inside the big-a** box is a METAL (!) frame. I'm not talking about stamped sheet metal either - this is a big, beefy, solid steel frame. You could park a car on it. Has to weight 30 lbs at least, all by itself.

3. Sears sent the thing with a 3rd party shipper. So they send ONE guy and a truck. HE has a gate-lift and a pallet jack. If I hadn't been home, he would never have got the thing up my driveway. He pulled - I pushed.

4. Since they only sent one guy - No way was HE going to get the saw into my house and downstairs to the basement (where the shop is).

5. The bill of lading says this thing weighs 337 lbs!

6. I've had 3 hernia operations - I used to move pinball machines and video games (big arcade machines) around as a hobby. I don't do silly things like that anymore. Doctors orders. 50 lb limit. (don't tell the doc, I stretch that sometimes - but not this much)

SO - I have a big, WAAAY too heavy to move, box sitting in my garage where my truck should be. My truck is outside and - oh, by the way - it's going to snow tonight (first snow this year). I got a garage so I wouldn't have to scrape ice and snow off my vehicles. Anyone see the irony here?

I have (in the past) called local movers to see if they would move big, heavy items. Yeah - for a price. It would cost more than I paid for the saw. FUHGETABOUDIT!

Does it seem at all strange to anyone else that stores will sell you big, heavy stuff, offer "home delivery" and then they dump it in the front yard and run away?

Shouldn't "home delivery" mean that they will DELIVER it where I want (need) it in my HOME? Not just drop it at the curb. If it was a mattress, or a sofa or a refrigerator, they would bring it in and put it where I want it. WHY is this any different?

For heavens sake, the delivery guy needed some serious industrial hardware (and a little help) to move this thing. What is the average consumer supposed to do?

<end vent>

I suppose I will have to call in some favors. My best guess is that once we unbolt the body of the saw from the shipping frame and subtract out all the extension tables and accessories - we'll be in the 175 lb ballpark. That's not too much to ask of some old friends, is it?

bd

[Alex Berkovsky]

Brian,
Specify your location in the profile - I'd offer to help if you're anywhere near me.

[Michael Ballent]

Well a few friends and an appliance dolly could help you out... You probably want to strip the saw down as much as possible... Or consider moving to warmer climates so you can park your car in the driveway :D ;)

[Brian Dormer]

Michael -

Find me a house in Hawaii with space for a workshop and I'm there! When I retire, I never want to see another snowflake.

bd

[Brian Dormer]

Alex,

You're 5+hours away and snow's a-comin'. I've made the drive to your area in good weather and it's no fun. I have some burly retired-military friends that have helped me in the past. I just make some comments doubting that an ex-(marine, sailor, soldier, seal, etc.) could move it and they get all fired up. Next day - I have plenty of help. A little psycology goes a long way.

But I still think that Sears (and Lowes as I've had them pull this too - they sent a girl!) needs to either practice some truth in advertizing ("Warning, you are going to have to move a 300 lb box") or follow thru on "Home Delivery".

Thanks for the offer.

[David Duke]

Brian, I have to disagree a little, "home delivery" don't necessarily mean in house, most of the time for freight its curb service, appliances and furniture have always been in house delivery and most times set up but you do pay for it either in the delivery charge or price of the product. If I were going to have something like this delivered and needed help getting it inside I would make sure and ask what I'm getting for the delivery charge, probably get it in writing if I think that it will be a problem.

[Michael Gabbay]

Brian - I feel your pain. Unfortunately, home delivery is just delivery not installation which would be putting it where it needs to go. However, stripping down the saw, especially the crate will help a lot. If the shipping weight is 337 pounds then I would guess you could easily get it to around 200 pounds for the base, motor, and top. You could have two people move that in a basement shop with an appliance dolly.

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi Brian

I don't know if this will help you out any, but when I used to work for Sears, we sold maintenance agreements - insurance policies that wern't worth what they cost most of the time. However, when a person bought a three year policy, it included "deluxing" the machine, meaning in home setup. It might be worth your while to investigate it. Apart from the setup, it would extend your warranty.

Good luck with it.

Bill

PS I will be in your neighborhood in a little over a month, up in Emmitsburg, for filming my next DVD at a secret location. The video company is located in Frederick.

[Brian Dormer]

David -

I can see the stores point of view. And I, sort of, expected that this would happen.

I did my homework - I've been looking at saws for months. I knew before I ordered that the saw was about 300 lbs shipping weight. And I didn't have to pay for shipping (thanks to the Craftsman Club rebate on this saw). If I had paid for delivery - THEN I'd be very upset at a "dump and run". Instead of posting here, some manager at SEARS would be feeling my wrath.

I've been in this boat before. And I'm fortunate to have strong, willing friends to help me move things like this. But that doesn't mean it won't continue to irk me.

What I'd like to see, I suppose, is something like what they now do in the airport. If your bag is "heavy" - they put a special sticker on it to give the baggage guys (and the TSA too, I suspect) a "heads up" that the bag has some weight to it. I'd like to see something in the catalog, on-line, etc. that says - "this is a big, mean, heavy beast and we're gonna leave it at the curb - after that, it's your problem to move it". All they need is a little dumbell and the weight of the heaviest component next to the price to serve as a warning.

I suppose what bugs me most is that they don't really say anything until you ask, rather than put it out there where you can see it for yourself. In marketing speak - they have "failed to shape the customers expectations". Instead of being pleasantly surpised - I'm a bit miffed. I'll bet that I'm not alone.

In the catalog, there's the saw, a few pages down is the fridge. No notice that there are different "rules" governing the delivery. Thats important and should be disclosed.

bd

[Brian Dormer]

I don't want them to set it up (and I suspect no self respecting woodworker would want someone else to set up their equipment). But that could be a solution. See my earlier post to David. What I'm really getting as is some disclosure from the store. THEN - they could offer the extra service of actually bringing the item into your house. Of course the flip side is that some people (like me) might wonder why that isn't included in the "delivery" fee to begin with.

I go thru Emmitsburg on a regular basis and I think I know what video company you are referring to.

bd

[Tom Jones III]

I know what you mean about home delivery. I recently bought a lathe (635 lbs) from a local ww'ing store. They asked if I wanted the $35 delivery fee, which I took. As they were putting it in my shop, right on the tape marks I had exactly placed and putting the lathe parts back together my neighbor had her new refrigerator "home delivered". They left this woman with a new 'frig on the sidewalk with it about to rain and drove away!

Of course this local ww'ing store makes it very clear if you do not take home delivery then once it is in your truck, it is yours. They tell a story about a man who bought a $2k planer who did not want it delivered. They helped him lift it into his truck and asked how he was going to tie it down. He responded that he wasn't going to tie it down, that he would just drive slow. Nothing they said changed his mind. As he pulled out of their parking lot, the brand new planer toppled out onto the highway.

[Chip Olson]

When I bought my 22114, I borrowed a friend's pickup to pick it, er, up, only to be told that they didn't have enough people to help me load it and I should come back with friends. Did so, and when we came back they did have enough people to load it after all. A good thing, because I'd only found two friends (yes, I do have more than that).

Had to wait until the next day (and the recruitment of a few more friends) to get it out of the truck and into my basement. Getting it out and secured to a hand truck was easy, but my basement door is down a few steps into a well and then about a 20-degree turn into the door. The saw in its box turned out to be just barely too big to make that turn. We had to pull it back up and uncrate it, and it still took some careful maneuvering.

[Brian Dormer]

Chip -

Do you have any idea as to how heavy the body of the saw (without the shipping cage, "accessories" and all is?

Just taking a rough estimate of 30 lbs for the shipping cage, 70 lbs for the two extension tables and another 30-50 lbs of "accessories". So my guess is 175 for the body.

[Dick Aubochon]

I'm picing up my 22124 this week. The crate is about 400 lbs. I'm planning on breaking it down into managabale pieces and get help moving the cabinet into the shop.

[scott spencer]

Chip -

Do you have any idea as to how heavy the body of the saw (without the shipping cage, "accessories" and all is?

Just taking a rough estimate of 30 lbs for the shipping cage, 70 lbs for the two extension tables and another 30-50 lbs of "accessories". So my guess is 175 for the body. Hi Brian - The assembled saw is stated to be 385#. I think your estimate of the wings at about 70# is about right, I'd guess the fence probably weighs 40-50#, so if you leave the motor in place, I'm guessing the saw body will weigh over 225# and will be top heavy.

Good luck and be careful. Enjoy the saw!

[David Fried]

Brian,

My neighbor usually gets some of the local high school or college football players to move heavy things for very little money. (Talk to the coach) Those guys are young and strong. Four of them would be lifting less than a hundred pounds each. Just a thought. Good Luck!

Dave Fried

[Marcus Ward]

Take the top off, then you can get the cabinet on a furniture dolly and move it downstairs. Then put the top back on, along with the wings. It's probably not aligned anyway.

[Corey Hallagan]

Congrats on the new saw Brian, it is a good one. I hope you get it installed and everything works great!

Corey

[Maurice Ungaro]

Congrats, despite what Mr. Jay posted.
Ahemm.....however, pictures will be forthcoming, right?

[Brian Dormer]

Four guys would be the right number - *IF* there was enought space for four people and a saw on the stairway. They would have to be four midget weightlifters (no offense to the small statured or body builders intended). Two people are going to have to schlepp it. Probably on an appliance dolly.

When I used to move pinball machines (about 300 - 350 lbs) we called moving them into a basement the "Rocket sled ride to hell".

In truth, you go as slow as possible - step by step - and avoid the object building up any momentum. But the consequences if you loose it are pretty close to that description.

bd

[Brian Dormer]

The saw can't be 385 - the bill of lading says 337 - since it came on a plane (had an airport sticker on the box) - I'll trust that as an accurate figure. For starters, that steel shipping frame has to be at least 30 lbs (probably more) so the whole saw can't weigh more than about 300 lbs fully assembled with all the bits-and-bobs tacked on.

I would buy 200 lbs for the body, but I really think it might be a tad less - 225 seems pretty high. Top heavy shouldn't be much of a problem. The first step is to flip the whole shipping container over to get everything out (so sayeth the instructions). So the heavy top will be on the bottom - and on an appliance dolly.

[Brian Dormer]

Jay -

I'm not complaining at all about the weight. The packaging seems like a little overkill (I have a bench jointer (also Craftsman) that weights over 100 lbs that came in the customary stryofoam and cardboard box) - but I'd rather get the saw undamaged, so I'll accept the packaging for what it is.

I knew (and have so stated) that I knew full well exactly how much the saw weighs. And I pretty much expected "curb delivery". I'm not happy about it - but that's what I figured as soon as the sales agent told me it would come via a 3rd party shipper.

My real issue is over what "home delivery" means not just to Sears, but to many retailers. The "average consumer" should not be expected to deal with moving an object of this mass. If I were "Emperor for a Day" - I would probably insist that they 1) disclose the size and weight of items in their advertizing 2) disclose what "delivery" includes or does not include and 3) Make the meaning of "home delivery" consistent.

My point - more or less - was that if it was a 300 lb refrigerator, I would pay about the same delivery cost and they would have wheeled it right into my kitchen and most probably plugged it in (maybe even hook up the icemaker). They would even remove my old fridge as part of the deal. In fact, that's EXACTLY what the very same Sears has done for me in the past. Why is a fridge any different from a table saw?

I can't very well blame the shipper (and I don't) - they were contracted to curb deliver a big heavy thing. They did that. Actually, the guy went out of his way to get the box into my garage. They get a gold star.

bd

[Brian Dormer]

Maurice -

Jay's entitled to his opinion and I accept it for what it is. No worries.

Its looking like the saw will get unpacked and moved next weekend (unless the predicted snow doesn't actually happen today - flakes are already flying). I will take lots of pix and post 'em. I have two pix right now - but its just a big box sitting in a garage at the moment. Not terribly interesting.

I will also try to document how to move the thing in "non macho" style. If we can figure out how to break it down into single-person-managable (< 100 lb) chunks.

bd

[Bob Weisner]

When I bought my new Sears Craftsman 15 inch wood lathe, we picked it up at the store and loaded it in the pickup truck. After we got home, I got the garden tractor out with the 12 cubic foot dump trailer and loaded the lathe onto the trailer. We pulled the trailer around to the Bilco trap door in the back of the house and I SLOWLY unloaded it onto a bunch of 1x12's. I unhooked the trailer and then got out some rope and tied one end of the rope around the lathe and the other end of the rope I tied to the hitch of the tractor. We then put some more 1x12's down the concrete steps to the basement. My father pulled on the lathe until it was angled down the concrete steps. I then SLOWELY backed the tractor up and the lathe slide down the 1x12's EASY AS PIE!!!:D

[scott spencer]

The saw can't be 385 - the bill of lading says 337 - since it came on a plane (had an airport sticker on the box) - I'll trust that as an accurate figure. For starters, that steel shipping frame has to be at least 30 lbs (probably more) so the whole saw can't weigh more than about 300 lbs fully assembled with all the bits-and-bobs tacked on.

I would buy 200 lbs for the body, but I really think it might be a tad less - 225 seems pretty high. Top heavy shouldn't be much of a problem. The first step is to flip the whole shipping container over to get everything out (so sayeth the instructions). So the heavy top will be on the bottom - and on an appliance dolly. I'm assuming the fence came in a separate box? So your main crate without fence would be a gross weight of 337 including all packing materials. Here's Sears weight claim:

Product Overview:
Table Saw Type

Stationary Table Saw
Item Weight

385.0 lbs.

[Bill Borchardt]

Brian,

When I bought my 22124 in Dec 04 the in-home delivery was $55 (and there was a $55 mail in rebate! So except for sales tax it was free :) ). When the saw was delivered the Sears delivery guys brought the saw right in my basement (via the walk out basement door in the back of the house). They did not unpack it and assemble it - I did and it was a job in itself.

Given your saw is already in the garage you may as well unpack it and start taking the separate pieces down to the basement. The table extension wings, the fence, miter gauge, saw blade, blade guard, wrenches, etc. are all separate items within the package, so that's quite a bit of weight you can schlep down the stairs in several trips. After you get all those items downstairs you'll end up with the basic saw cabinet (which includes the top and the motor). Unless you have some strong (and very careful) guys, I'd take of the top and motor off and make the moving of the saw down the stairs manageable (and safer). Yes it's extra work, and if you have a bad disk you'll still need some help, but by disassembling the saw one normal guy and you can carry the top, then the cabinet, and finally the motor down to the basement.

You're going to need help assembling the saw anyhow so why not make an afternoon out of it with a friend followed by some pizza, a few beers and you'll both have a story to tell later.

Take your time, think things through, and don't hurt yourself.

(FYI: I also have a bad disk and know that can be miserable - so beeeeee careful. ;) )

Make sawdust, have fun, be safe . . . .

Billbo

[Alan Berezin]

Is that the Craftsman Professional? If so, what is your opinion of it. I am entertaining the idea of upgrading my little ridgid portable saw to a cabinet saw. Thought about a craftsman or a Grizzly. Any thoughts?

[Chip Olson]

The steel crate is actually surprisingly light; I'd say 15# tops. With the saw out of the crate and minus the wings and fence, you're still talking at least 200#. A standard hand-truck and some ratcheting tiedown straps (the same ones I use as band clamps) made the move into the basement much easier. You'll want to move the saw upside-down (which it will be anyway once you've unbolted it from the crate).

Oh-- when you turn it upside down, the saw will be hanging from the crate, so you'll need to block it up on a piece of wood in order to unbolt it. (Fortunately, I figured that out before I dropped the saw onto my driveway.)

Could be worse; a friend of mine once had to move a Bridgeport milling machine into his basement. That involved a flatbed tow truck and some <i>very</i> sturdy skids.

[Ed Bamba]

When I was trying to align the top to the blade on my 22124, I had to elongate the cabinet bolt holes to get the table aligned. I didn't remove the top since the fence and wings were already attached. What a pain that was. The moral to my story is: it may be necessary to elongate your cabinet too, so removing the top to move it to the saw's final resting place may be a blessing in disguise. Check to see if there is enough wiggle room in the cabinet mounting holes to properly align the table to the blade. Do this prior to assembling the fence and wings. It'll be a whole lot easier on your back.

Take care and good luck,
Ed

[Brian Dormer]

Alan -

I looked a Grizzly - and probably 20 other brands (I've been looking for months). My final choice came down to Ridgid TS 3650 with the 22114 as my "Plan B". I took another look at the Ridgid and "discovered" that the motor really sticks out the back and the "box" is wide open (bad for dust collection). SO.... I picked the 22114. Every Sears is a source for parts and accessories AND there is a pretty good aftermarket.

Plus - with Grizz - the shipping adds quite a bit to the price. If you are a Craftsman Club member (it's free, just go sign up) and you can wait for a sale - you can get the 22114 delivered for under $600. Sears even thru in a rip and crosscut blade in addition to the blade in the box.

bd

[Brian Dormer]

Chip -

Thanks for the heads up on the wood blocking - I might not have caught that. The manual leaves a bit to the imagination. For example - doesn't say how to align the blade to the table (only to the rip fence).

I think I will give Customer Service a call and ask about pulling the top off. I have all the toys (dial gauge, etc) to set the saw up - so maybe taking the top off isn't such a bad idea.

bd

[Brian Dormer]

ALL -

I've got a RUMOR that *IF* you call Sears and talk to the delivery people that they may be talked into coming out and moving the saw for you...

Hmmmm..... Wouldn't hurt to ask, I suppose.

bd