Wanna See Something REALLY Cool???

[Jeff A. Smith]

I probably can't post a direct link to this site -- not sure...

Carveright.com (http://www.carveright.com) (moderator added direct link)

But go to carvewright dot com and check out that robotic carver.

That is one cool contraption, and on sale this week to boot!

I sure would love to have one of these! I could see it paying for itself very quickly by allowing one to make simple objects with intricate carvings on them and effectively "mini-mass-producing" that which would have taken many hours before.

Jeff Smith
Athens AL

[Allen Bookout]

You are right. Worth taking a look. Allen

[Lee DeRaud]

The phrase that comes to mind is "desktop ShopBot". I was stunned at the price: guessed $7K, actually $2K. (Roland makes a mini-CNC rig of similar dimensions, but it's $23K...admittedly that's designed for industrial prototyping.)

[tod evans]

this is cool! i asked the lazer heads their opinion in another thread...02 tod

[John Miliunas]

That's just way too neat! One heckuva' lot of technology for two grand, I'd say! I really wonder about the long term duty cycles of a small machine like that. Thanks for the info! :) :cool:

[Kelly C. Hanna]

That is a very interesting machine and not a bad price!

[Andy London]

Now that is something I could afford to add to the shop....going to search and see if I come across anyone with one...

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Pretty soon you won't need any talent, practice or hardwork to do this hobby!

[Alan Burhop]

It's like a printer for wood. That is cool

[tod evans]

Pretty soon you won't need any talent, practice or hardwork to do this hobby!

a spinning cutter will never give the crisp lines achieved by a sharp knife or chisel! but this would be a fantastic rough-out machine..02 tod

[Michael Ballent]

We are already there... There are machines that will S4S wood for you, cut the tennons, presses that will hold everything together, CNC saws that you feed it a 4x8 sheet of ply and spits out all the panels already cut to size along with barcodes so you know what goes where. It's just a question of how much money you are willing to spend... ;) oh yeah and the amount of space you have.


Pretty soon you won't need any talent, practice or hardwork to do this hobby!

[Keith Outten]

a spinning cutter will never give the crisp lines achieved by a sharp knife or chisel! but this would be a fantastic rough-out machine..02 tod

Tod,

You would be surprised at what a spinning cutter will do, I see lines as sharp as any cut with a knife using a v-bit and 3D ramping on my ShopBot every day.

I viewed the CarveWright video a few minutes ago and I have to say for the money it seems to have a lot of capability. I wonder how long the machine will last though, many projects can take hours to run so a CNC machine needs to be built tough if it is going to last. The router mechanism should be easy and reasonably inexpensive to replace, the ShopBot uses a Portar Cable router that is easy to maintain and cheap enough to discard when it's life is spent.

Anyone who specializes in small projects might be wise to give the CarveWright a close look. They were also wise to preload their software with lots of ready to go graphics which makes it easier to get up and running quick, ShopBot should have done something like that with their software.

[craig carlson]

A friend of mine and I were planning on asking some detailed questions of these folks next week. I post the responce in case anyone is interested.
Craig

[Per Swenson]

Hello all,

I think we are going to buy one.

But first we need a, well , guinea pig.

So, CarveWright if you are listening we would like

to here from some of your Random Customers.

If you happen to be a lurker and own one, well now's the time.

Thanks.

Per

[Walt Pater]

Hello all,

I think we are going to buy one.

But first we need a, well , guinea pig.

Per

I think the machine is designed to work on wood, Per. Leave the Guinea Pig alone. :)

[Rob Bourgeois]

You that is cool and all. But I am sorry I would not consider that to be "handcrafted" work. Instead its no better than the mass produced stuff that you get a Wally world.

I wonder how many TRUE craftmen will be hurt by this mass produced computer exact replica. And Tod is right nothing beats the finish of a gouge and the uniqueness a hand carving has.

Lazers are just as bad. You get slick young business men( not craftsman) underselling the old timers that scrollsaw for little extra money.

So what you get is not a work of art or craftsmenship...you get get a typical Wallyworld/McDonalds replica product.

[tod evans]

Tod,

You would be surprised at what a spinning cutter will do, I see lines as sharp as any cut with a knife using a v-bit and 3D ramping on my ShopBot every day.

.

keith, i frequently use "carvings" supplied by raymond enkeboll for pieces where the customer dosen`t want to pay for an original. these are by far some of the nicer cnc produced "carvings" i have encountered. but in order to give the appearance of hand work they must still be undercut and cleaned up to appease my eye. check them out if you haven`t allready.
http://www.enkeboll.com/ ....02 tod

[Corey Hallagan]

Wow, that iis a sweet little machine! Those boxes look fantastic.

Corey

[Cecil Arnold]

I got to see this machine at a craft show and talked to some of the guys who built it. I posted my impressions on the laser thread if anyone is interested.

[Lee DeRaud]

Lazers are just as bad. You get slick young business men( not craftsman) underselling the old timers that scrollsaw for little extra money.

So what you get is not a work of art or craftsmenship...you get get a typical Wallyworld/McDonalds replica product.Was I the only one here offended by that?

[Rob Bourgeois]

Sorry if I offended you but the guy I had in mind showed up at a local craft show claimed his work to be scrolled. When I pointed out his burn marks to my wife and said I think he used a laser he admitted he did and he could under price "all these old guys and produce perfect products".

If that is the practice that you do then I am not sorry for offending you..its simply wrong and dishonest. If you use a tool then state that thats what you used. Dont try to pawn off machine duplications as hand made..that is just wrong.

How many times on here and other wood working forums do you see people complaining about customers wanting a "pottery barn" price for hand made work. Its the same exact thing...machine made cheaply to undersell the true craftsman.

Think about this...what is art? Would the Venus di Milo or Michangleo's "David" be considered art today if there were 10,000 exact copies. I doubt we would even bat an eye at them. IF you want to claim something as art that the only hand work you did was punching a few buttons and watching the machine create it, you and I have differnt opinions on what art is. Art comes from the soul not from a circuit board.

[Lee DeRaud]

Sorry if I offended you but the guy I had in mind showed up at a local craft show claimed his work to be scrolled. When I pointed out his burn marks to my wife and said I think he used a laser he admitted he did and he could under price "all these old guys and produce perfect products".

If that is the practice that you do then I am not sorry for offending you..its simply wrong and dishonest. If you use a tool then state that thats what you used. Dont try to pawn off machine duplications as hand made..that is just wrong.I have never made any secret of what tools I use, because that's what they are, tools. Nothing more, nothing less. And I see no reason to slam an entire class of tools because they can be mis-used. If I carry your argument to its (il)logical conclusion, the scrollsaw artisan who uses photocopied patterns of his own designs instead of hand-drawing each pattern on each piece of wood is doing something wrong and dishonest. Not to mention the "old-timers scrolling for a little extra money" making copy after copy after copy of other peoples' designs, or the entire cottage industry of publishing scrollsaw patterns.

Think about this...what is art? Would the Venus di Milo or Michangleo's "David" be considered art today if there were 10,000 exact copies. I doubt we would even bat an eye at them. IF you want to claim something as art that the only hand work you did was punching a few buttons and watching the machine create it, you and I have differnt opinions on what art is. Art comes from the soul not from a circuit board.It sounds like we do have very different opinions of what art is. To you, art appears to be the process of creating an artifact; to me, art is the artifact itself. Indeed, art comes from the soul, not from the paintbrush or chisel...or scrollsaw.

It appears you have some particular prejudice against applying computer technology to woodworking (although the irony of you expressing it in this forum is a bit stunning)...or do you also have similar low opinions of woodworkers using routers and templates to cut dovetails?

[Cecil Arnold]

Rob, I think your issue is more with someone trying to pass off something for what it isn't. As to art, I agree it comes from the soul. But having said that, craftsmanship is not necessarily art. A well crafted box, with machine carving work on the outside is still a well crafted box and IMHO could still be sold as a handcrafted item. I'm sure the Monets, Manets, Dellaquis, Degas, and Renoirs, all felt the art world was going down hill when new artists no longer had to grind their own colors. Artists today are not shy about producing limited prints of their work in order to increase their income so why should craftsmen.

[Allen Grimes]

Rob,

Im with Lee on this one. First of all, I agree 100% that art comes from the soul, but I dont agree that by using a cnc machine to bring it out, it is any less art. Thats like saying a poet is not a poet if he uses a keyboard instead of a pen. Its the design that makes the work art, not the means of making it.

I find your comments very offensive and I never even used any CNC or laser machines. You are insulting all laser/CNC users based on your experience with 1 and that is what is really wrong here.

That said I would definately use a CNC machine if I could afford it. And if this machine turns out to be good, then I will most definately buy it in the future.

[Andy Hoyt]

Using a cnc guided anything is a tiny step away from using a tablesaw or table mounted router with a hyper accurate fence. Neither is art. It's machining.

Art is free form expression. Scrollsawing is art; as is turning - as long as duplicating devices aren't used.

And I agree with Allen - the design can indeed be art, while the methodology to produce may not be.

[Lee DeRaud]

Art is free form expression. Scrollsawing is art; as is turning - as long as duplicating devices aren't used.That's something I just don't get:
Say somebody makes an object you call "art". Then they make another one just like it. Is the second one "art"? Are they both "art"? Did the first one stop being "art" when the second one was made?

[tod evans]

i`ll offer my opinion on this: as someone who prefers to leave my imprint on what i build i would look at this type of equipment as a way to quickly and accurately prepare rough blanks. no better or worse than a bandsaw or a pin router, if i, as the builder, design a piece on paper or computer screen and use powertools to get my form roughed in it is still my form regardless of which tools are used to draft and cut it. as i pointed out to keith earlier in this thread, there are several of my clients who want carving on their furniture but balk at the price i must charge to chip it from solid. to date i`ve incorperated work from raymond enkeboll when it`s suitable in order to save the client money, but even the quality offered needs touching up. i welcome this technology to the small shop and think it will offer a degree of flexibility and economy that have been out of reach to this point.

just to be honest, i have never drawn or drafted anything on a computer so i`m sure the learning curve for an old hardheaded hillbilly will be steep, but if a fellow sticks with his own designs and uses this type of equipment to expidite his work i believe it will still be art from the person building it..02 tod

[Rob Bourgeois]

Cecil you have explained more of what I should of said...I dont always get my point across clearly. Except for one thing...an orginal painting will always sell higher than a print and they never claim the print ot be the original. Not so with this machine...you couldnt tell them apart.

Lee
As far as the comments about photocopied patterns...You are allowed so many of "one " puchase. You can purchase the same pattern 3 times and sell 3 times as many. That to me is a wash because the laser worker and scroller are limited by their own honesty in following that rule. AGAIN..honesty. For me personally(don't do craft shows) all of my saleable scroll work has been patterns made by myself of peoples kids, so I can claim never to violate copyright laws on patterns.

As far as dovetails cut by a router...thats fine just dont say hand cut or lead your customer on to think that you cut them without the aid of a router. Again honesty in what you are selling.

As far as art..to me art is the process of of creating it, the process itself and the resulting work..again I wasnt completely clear.

As far as computers use in my woodworking, all of my patterns of portraits are manipulated in photoshop so you couldnt be further from the truth. BUT I still have to manipulate the wood and do all of the cuts myself..not just press a button.

Again if I offended someone with my comments about lasers users( and it based on more than one that i have met by the way) then if you dont fall into that group you should not be offended but if you do then maybe you should be offended for not being honest to yourself and your customer.

[Allen Grimes]

Tod ,

Most of what you said was what I was trying to say as well. A CNC machine to me is just a way to speed up the process. If the design is my own, then why is it not art?

As for PC designs. I draw everything by hand and sometimes if I get a chance to use SketchUp, I will take that my predrawn design and flesh it out in 3D. If I could afford to buy SketchUp for myself, I dont think I would hand draw my designs first anymore, unless I had an idea and I couldnt get to a computer any time soon. Its much easier and faster for me to use to get the design out, the way it is in my head with the PC, than with a pencil and paper.

One thing is for sure, where time is precious, as it always is to me. A machine like this one is a dream come true. Now if only I could afford the thing.

[Lee DeRaud]

Art is free form expression. Scrollsawing is art; as is turning - as long as duplicating devices aren't used.Take 2:

I don't turn yet, so I don't really know for sure, but I'm willing to take it on faith that turners walk up to a spinning piece of wood with a sharp chisel in their hand and no preconceived idea what's going to come out at the end. That's about as "free-form expression" as it gets. (Not saying that's how it always (or usually) works, but hey, it can happen.)

I have done a fair amount of scrollsaw work in the past, Lord knows without any pretense of any of it being "art". For the life of me, the idea of someone doing the kind of stuff that does qualify as "scrollsaw art" without a pattern just Does Not Compute. And the normal method of doing that involves, you guessed it, a "duplicating device", usually in the form of a photocopier, even if the pattern is a hand-drawn original. I could be wrong, there could be people out there freehand drawing patterns on each piece of wood and never making more than one of anything...but I suspect I could count them on my fingers, maybe my thumbs.

[Rob Bourgeois]

Pretty soon you won't need any talent, practice or hardwork to do this hobby!


This to me is what this all boils down too.
Where is the art in taking anothers design and pressing a button. To turn, scroll or carve by hand without machine you still need to spend the time and effort to learn how to do it. I would bet that time is orders of magnitude faster with a laser or this machine then learnign to do it by hand.

[Rob Bourgeois]

That's something I just don't get:
Say somebody makes an object you call "art". Then they make another one just like it. Is the second one "art"? Are they both "art"? Did the first one stop being "art" when the second one was made?


They will never be exactly alike...unless you stack cut them in a scrollsaw( even then they are slightly different due to blade deflection)

[tod evans]

Art is free form expression. Scrollsawing is art; as is turning - as long as duplicating devices aren't used.

.

andy, this past christmas i banged out a coffee table for my brother, i freehand turned one leg and used it to duplicate the other three.....does this make the table any less my design? .02 tod

[Rob Bourgeois]

Take 2:

I have done a fair amount of scrollsaw work in the past, Lord knows without any pretense of any of it being "art". For the life of me, the idea of someone doing the kind of stuff that does qualify as "scrollsaw art" without a pattern just Does Not Compute. And the normal method of doing that involves, you guessed it, a "duplicating device", usually in the form of a photocopier, even if the pattern is a hand-drawn original. I could be wrong, there could be people out there freehand drawing patterns on each piece of wood and never making more than one of anything...but I suspect I could count them on my fingers, maybe my thumbs.


You are taking it to the extreme here..no one siad not to use technology or tools..I stated being honest in how you represent your work. To equate cutting a pre-made pattern on a scrollsaw to cutting the same pre-made pattern on a laser is quite laughable in the terms of talent and practice needed. I would bet...that you reached a level of expertise with your laser faster than with the scroll saw...wheres the talent, time and practice?

Tod about the 4 legs you made..one by hand and 3 with a duplicator..I dont have a problem with that if you didnt sell you work as individually hand turned legs. As Dennis said earlier..where is the time and talent and practice needed if a machine can take a drawing and turn out the work. You had to spend the time, have the talent and practice many times in order to make that first leg.

[Lee DeRaud]

Say somebody makes an object you call "art". Then they make another one just like it. Is the second one "art"? Are they both "art"? Did the first one stop being "art" when the second one was made?They will never be exactly alike...unless you stack cut them in a scrollsaw( even then they are slightly different due to blade deflection)But which (if either) of them is "art"? No, they won't be exactly alike...but can you tell which was the "original" and which was the "copy"? Or are you saying that the only thing that makes them "art" is that they're not exactly alike?

(I wasn't even thinking in terms of scrollsaw work: the example I had in mind was Maloof chairs...and yes, he does reuse designs.)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I hope I don't have to get a bucket of water to cool this thread down!;)

What's art in one persons mind is junk or worse in another. Just like craftsmanship.........I've recently had some photos lasered onto marble by a Creeker. Art? Craftsmanship?.......I know this much.....they were appreciated to whom they were given!

The reason we have more than one forum here is because of the different views of what each of us might consider our favorite craft or form of woodworking is.

Myself.....I have a 13" planer (motor driven).........I have some hand planes.....I have a jig saw.........t/s.........will have a bandsaw in the near future........I have a coping saw.........manual screwdrivers........cordless ..screwdrivers, pneumatic nailers.......hammers.....handsaws.....carving tools........dremel tools.......The point is they are various methods working with wood, metal, and other materials. As I have varying degrees of skills with those tools, I have varying degrees of craftsmanship. I use what is seems appropriate for the job, at hand, at the time.

While I have in the past made a living for a short time as a draftsman, I am not an artist in the classical sense (I can't draw a straight line without the aid of a straight edge or a desireable curved line without the aid of a french curve )but..........I've seen mechanical and architectural drawings by others that I considered a very disciplined artwork.

Design ........A talent or skill I need to work on.........This to me requires a certain type of imagination which if it can be developed or induced I hope to add to my collection of mediocre skills.....People like architects (including those here at the Creek) and design engineers simply amaze me with their capability of taking someone's broad idea of a finished product, develop it with discipline and break it down into very small details that produce the beauty and function.

In short..........who am I to decide what's art or craftsmanship? I just know what I like or appreciate! What's art to me might appear to be junk to you! I celebrate these differences in opinion and refuse to be led into a emotional battle over our differences. There are too many important things in life and arguing differences in opinion doesn't rank that important to me! To me.....having an opinion doesn't make me right or wrong....just opinionated!

Honesty? Integrity, once lost, is nearly irrecoverable!

And now...........it's time for me to get on with today's chores.......including trying to expand my totally non-existant skills on using a lathe!:D

[Allen Grimes]

I'm going to end with this.

To me, the ability to design from your imagination is what makes an artist. Whether you are a writer, painter or woodworker. But that doesnt mean that a photographer is not an artist, a photographer has the ability to capture beauty with a camera that somebody else might have missed. And a person who paints portraits of people is also an artist even if what he is painting is in front of him.

Being able to use handtools doesnt make a woodworker more of an artist than one who uses CNC machinery. It is the the brain that guides those hands, that makes the art, not the hands themselves. Skill only makes your art easier to flesh out for the rest of the world to see.

I consider myself an artist and I always will, no matter what anybody else may think, but I dont feel I have the right to tell somebody else that they are not an artist, because I dont like their methods of producing their art.

That is all,

Oh and Tod, as long as the first leg was yours than they are all your art.

[Cecil Arnold]

Okay, this is my last word on this subject of art, and I do like the Carveright. I had to go back to some old textbooks to review the subject. From a quick reading I rediscovered that through history art has had many meanings including the making of utilitarian pieces. One of the current definitions of art, taken from John Dewey's Art as Experience is that "one can assent to his (Dewey's) basic belief that all human experience, beautiful, ugly, pleasurable and painful, even humorous and absurd, can be distilled by the artist, crystallized in a work of art, and preserved to be experienced by the observer as long as that work lasts. It is the ability to embrace human experience of all sorts and transmit it to the observer that distinguishes the work of art."

[nic obie]

If you really wanted to piss off my grandfather, a famous Canadian painter (may he rest in peace), was say, " I don't know much about art, but I know what I like."

Do a google on Henri Masson.

[Scott Loven]

I got an email from them and they said that their introductory price is $1500. I thought $2000 was a good price!
Scott

[John Barton]

This to me is what this all boils down too.
Where is the art in taking anothers design and pressing a button. To turn, scroll or carve by hand without machine you still need to spend the time and effort to learn how to do it. I would bet that time is orders of magnitude faster with a laser or this machine then learnign to do it by hand.

The question is really where art and production diverge? I have been priveleged to be aquainted with some very good woodworkers and glass blowers who make one-of-a-kind unique pieces that express their unique perspective. These folks also do a lot of similar pieces based on requests from customers and galleries.

The artistry in anything lies in how the piece turns out. I can take the laser engraver and burn a piece of wood with some common font and it will convey the information and be functional. I can also apply a few extra lines, set up the individual settings, and use the right stock to create a piece that not only conveys the information but gets emotional feedback from it's viewers. The latter method may only take me a few minutes longer in "production" but the artistry comes from my 'apprenticeship' wherin I had to learn the techniques and tricks.

Art, to me, is when the creator and the viewer both look at a piece with some kind of emotion. If I am proud of a piece then it's art, at least to me. If the customer's desire is fullfilled then it's art.

Personally, I see the use of tools as one which allows artists to take the creation to levels never before seen. Now a hand carved relief piece isn't such a big deal since everyone can do it on a laser much faster. But, the guy who knows how to hand carve can look at that laser cutter and imagine possibilities that the non-craftsman often won't see. So, the person who is really well educated and experienced can create higher art with better tools.

We are purchasing a Universal 660. As someone who used to make a living creating unique one-of-kind cue cases and then built that into one of the most recognized (within the billiard industry) mass-production brands, I am well aquainted with the hand-built vs. machine, art vs. production debate. It will never end. And it shouldn't. We never want everything to become so easy that it's mundane. The artist in me already sees the nearly limitless possibilities to create truly unique pieces for our customers. The marketer in me sees the possiblities to enhance and create an incredibly wide range of products.

I look forward to expressing my art, through the creation of my unique designs and though the blending of other's art with my own views, using this machine (tool) in as many ways as I can think of.

John Barton

[Vaughn McMillan]

Welcome to the Creek, John. A little Googling reveals that you've built quite a name (or two or three) in the cue case business. Here's my one and so far only attempt at a cue case (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32955).

I concur with your definition of artistry, and the emotion that true art in any form brings the maker and beholder. I believe that any tools that can get both parties to that point are fair game. This applies to wood, drawing, sculpture, music, etc. The fact that the tools make it easier in some respects to produce the work still doesn't diminish the artistic nature of the work, assuming it's artistic in the first place.

As a life-long guitar player, I've always been equally fascinated by all the electronic gizmos that one can use to alter the sound of the instrument. It takes skill and practice to get aesthetic sounds from a rack of electronics. (I have a theory that anything with more than three knobs has more bad settings than good ones.) I don't think that my playing with a digital signal processor and computer makes me any less of a musician (or artist) than someone playing a Les Paul straight into a Marshall. Or Yo-Yo Ma on a 200 year old cello. Just different.

The idea of putting a wood blank into a machine, pushing a few buttons, and pulling out a finished piece is a gross oversimplification of the skill, training and practice one must have to produce artful work with a CNC or laser machine. I have as much respect for someone who can corral the electrons and end up with a beautiful piece of art as I do for someone who can produce a hand-carved masterpiece. It's a different respect, for a different skillset, but it's respect nonetheless.

Again, welcome to the Creek John, and hope to see more of you around these parts.

- Vaughn

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I don't like it. They are selling it as a cheap and dirty replacement for the skill of the carver.

They call the machine's result " art" and "masterwork" when in point of fact it can be neither. By definition art and masterwork are the result of disclipline and skill developed over a period ( usually years) applied in a manner that expresses the human soul in a wonderful way.

That's not going to be the result of any gizmo.

Of course if it had the capability to replace a W&H molder and hog out archtop guitar and violin bodies I'd want one.

[David Giles]

Turns out one of the inventors is a young man from church. I didn't know anything about it until I saw him at the Houston WW show. As far as the machine goes, I know nothing about the capabilities. But I can vouch for the integrity of one of the men behind it. And that's as important as the tool when you are dealing with a new business.

[Chuck Saunders]

I don't like it. They are selling it as a cheap and dirty replacement for the skill of the carver.

They call the machine's result " art" and "masterwork" when in point of fact it can be neither. By definition art and masterwork are the result of disclipline and skill developed over a period ( usually years) applied in a manner that expresses the human soul in a wonderful way.


Cliff, I understand what you are saying and to a degree agree with your views. I think that they are replacing the carver in the same way that a router replaced the moulding plane and the circular saw the froe. The only area where I differ in opinion is the belief that art defined by the method of production. There are many sculpters who create the scupture in a smaller clay form and hire craftsmen to replicate the piece in bronze in a larger scale. Is the sculpture still art? Is the artist no longer the creator? Perhaps a better example is in the field of architecture. But I acknowledge that if someone wishes to present themselves as a maker of hand carved woodwork, this machine would be give them a deceptive advantage.
Thanks for listening
Chuck

[Mark Pruitt]

geez......for under $2500 you can put one of these puppies to work. That's amazing. I would have expected a higher price tag, but don't tell the manufacturer.:D

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I think I’d rather learn to carve than use something like that. It seems so soulless. Besides What's the point if all I did was plug in a machine and twiddle my thumbs while it whizzed away?

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In another forum I got dragged into a discussion on joinery and commercial jigs. I made the social error of suggesting that those lovely joints one gets from a commercial jig look like the user purchased their joints out of a box. They look technically cool but are inherently soulless. That started a long winded and often angry debate. I think the jig users saw me as slamming their use of a jig, impugning their efforts, and denigrating their work.
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Of course nothing could have been further from the truth. I currently own & use a Leigh D4, and I have a shop full electrically powered machinery. My point then (lost on so many) and again here is that these things are all fine and good && in the larger scheme of things they have a place. However, I don’t see gizmos and factory jigs as promoting the craft or skill of the trade so much as encouraging reliance on the gizmos and jigs. I see things like that as potentially defeating a person’s inclination to expand their personal skills supplanting them with the fast easy slick factory looking product from some out of the box gizmo.
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There has to be something to do besides drink beer when the electricity goes out.
Carving and cutting dovetails are among the many things requiring learned skills that one can do by candlelight.
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That said, if the thing had more capability I’d want one but not to produce silly fake carvings.
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As it stands it seems limited to imitating the work of a real carver doing raised, cameo, or bas relief type carving. It doesn’t appear to be able to do full scale molding like W&H molder nor does it appear to be up to the task of hogging out arch top guitar or violin bodies.
When they have one that can do that I may take another look.
Then again If I just grab a couple river stones and some corse sand I can abrade this lumber making it flat and join the edges using rice paste glue that I made from the rice I planted with the rice I foraged using the sticks I gathered - - - -

[Josh Goldsmith]

I like it. What makes the Carveright so cool is it enables people like my self who aren't talented enough with a chisel to produce any of there examples. I kind of skimed through all the comments so if someone allready stated this then i am sorry i didn't know. I wish i had some more money cause i would like to have one. I am good at drawing on the computer but when it comes to real life i am not very good.

I wonder if this setup could take the place of a molder but cheaper since you don't have to buy the molder blades? That would be great since the molder can only do up to 6" wide. Anyone have any comments about this? Thanks Josh

[Lee DeRaud]

There are two common sentiments expressed in discussing these kind of machines that just annoy the snot out of me:

1. "It took me a long time to learn how to do this by hand, therefore it must be art."
(or its close cousin, "It takes me a long time to actually do one of these by hand, therefore it must be art.")

2. "That thing is driven by a computer, therefore there is no skill involved in using it."

The first confuses "skill" (and/or "tedium") with "art". I have yet to meet a true artist who places his pride in the time/labor involved rather than the artifacts produced.

The second assumes that the computer programs itself, or that the computer/machine user is limited to doing cut-and-paste operations with canned objects provided with the software. I have yet to meet anyone who has that attitude who actually knows anything about what is involved in the process of creating artifacts using computer-controlled equipment.

[Vaughn McMillan]

...The second assumes that the computer programs itself, or that the computer/machine user is limited to doing cut-and-paste operations with canned objects provided with the software. I have yet to meet anyone who has that attitude who actually knows anything about what is involved in the process of creating artifacts using computer-controlled equipment.
Preach it Brotha!

Cliff, to suggest that there is no skill involved in telling the computer what to do with the wood only indicates a lack of understanding of the process invoved. There may be thumb-twiddling when the machine's running, but there's a lot of work that went on beforehand. (Of course, the resultant carving should not be sold or represented as "hand carved".)

Yes, it takes a lot of skill, practice and patience to hand carve a plaque or sign. It still takes a lot of skill (albeit a different kind of skill), practice and patience to get a computer to do the same. Look at some of Shari Loveless' work and see if you could draw those pictures on your computer.

I could be wrong on this point, but I'm pretty sure with the right computer and graphics skills, the CarveWright could hog out a violin body...don't think it's wide enough for an archtop guitar, though. ;)

- Vaughn

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

There are two common sentiments expressed in discussing these kind of machines that just annoy the snot out of me:

1. "It took me a long time to learn how to do this by hand, therefore it must be art."
(or its close cousin, "It takes me a long time to actually do one of these by hand, therefore it must be art.")

2. "That thing is driven by a computer, therefore there is no skill involved in using it."


That surely wasn't what I said.

What I said could be summed up with the following. I That sort of thing thouygh cute and Gee Wiz-ish is soulless and uninteresting. It's also not going to express the hand of the person creatin something in the same way that hands on tools will.

Yes Yes I know all about the joy and beauty of a thing designed on a CAD system and machined on a CAD CAM machining center - that's what I used to do for a living before I went to finish my education. Brefore that I was a machinist tool maker.

It was lovely and I took great pride in my work but ART?? Not in a million years. It was craft and it was science, it was skill, it was not art.

A cad-cam machined thingie-dealie is on a par with a spyrograph as far as creation and expresion of the soul goes.

[Julio Navarro]

I have been using CAD for over 20 years to design and draw. I saw CAD when all the architects saw it as the anti christ of architecture then they saw CAD technicians start to design horrible architecture then I saw architects start to use CAD as a tool (as Cliff stated) After the inital gizmo amazement wore off CAD became an essential tool for architects whos art is simply transported via computer.

I see valid points made in both camps about this machine. It still remains to be seen what real craftmen and artists can do with it and its subsequent generations(versions)

The advent of CAD reminds me of photography in its infancy. Many comments from artists where similar about the soullessness of photography, yet the artist was able to convey his own "soul" as the technology became more sophisticated (man has an odd nack for passing his "soul" to the work he produces regardless of the tool used.) Anyone can take a picture and it has its very important place in our lives a true artist can use the same gizmo and create a masterpeice in its own right.

Although I agree with Cliff and I understand his meaning I also agree with the other views. It will be certainly interesting to see how a true artist or craftsman uses this machine.

[Lee DeRaud]

That surely wasn't what I said.

What I said could be summed up with the following. I That sort of thing thouygh cute and Gee Wiz-ish is soulless and uninteresting. It's also not going to express the hand of the person creatin something in the same way that hands on tools will.

Yes Yes I know all about the joy and beauty of a thing designed on a CAD system and machined on a CAD CAM machining center - that's what I used to do for a living before I went to finish my education. Brefore that I was a machinist tool maker.

It was lovely and I took great pride in my work but ART?? Not in a million years. It was craft and it was science, it was skill, it was not art.

A cad-cam machined thingie-dealie is on a par with a spyrograph as far as creation and expresion of the soul goes.My point, as always, is that artistry comes from the mind...or soul, if you prefer. If you feel that using certain types of tools blocks the passage of artistry from your soul to the finished artifact, fine: DON'T USE THEM.

But it's just plain insulting to imply that the same is true of everyone using those tools.

[Vaughn McMillan]

...What I said could be summed up with the following. I That sort of thing thouygh cute and Gee Wiz-ish is soulless and uninteresting. It's also not going to express the hand of the person creatin something in the same way that hands on tools will.
I respectfully disagree. Are you saying that a building Mark Singer designs on a CAD system has less soul or interest than if he had drawn it up with ink on mylar?

You're correct in saying the output from the machine will not express the hand of the person creating it the same way as hand tools will. In some cases, it could be better. Personally, I can be much more "artistic" with a tablesaw and router than I can a with bowsaw and chisels. It's all in the skillset and interests.


It was craft and it was science, it was skill, it was not art. Art, as well as what actually constitutes "art", is wholly subjective. We just have different opinions about what qualifies as "art". That's cool.

- Vaughn

(Trying to figure out what to get Cliff for Christmas, since I've now had to scratch "CarveWright" off the list. ;) :) :p)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

My point, as always, is that artistry comes from the mind...or soul, if you prefer. If you feel that using certain types of tools blocks the passage of artistry from your soul to the finished artifact, fine: DON'T USE THEM.
OK fine but does that mean I should refrain from expressing an opinion?


But it's just plain insulting to imply that the same is true of everyone using those tools. I don't think it's insulting to express an opinion in a non-specific way. It might insulting to John Doe had I said "Hey John Doe your machineie-thingy-dealie-gizmo may look cool but you are producing cheap soulless uninteresting mass produced crapola and calling it art."
That'd be insulting to Poor John Doe and I wouldn't be so callous.

So then Ummm why are you so ticked off at me?

All I did was state that - given the specific context of "art" and under the theory that I believe it suppresses development of the trade skills - I don't like it. I wouldn't call it art and then I stated why.

I also indicated what context I might like it - and I might very much like one. I just wouldn't take the massive leap of calling it art. What's the big deal so it's not art. That doesn't detract from the skills and science.

Jeeezzz ssheesh
Really this is descending into one of those dialogs where people get all hugely invested in a lousy word. Sort of exactly like when the definition of "professional" arises, People almost invariably square off in to two corners one asserting the traditional position that to be a professional one must first profess to a life of service & fealty to a cause that is higher than the individual human.
The other camp will counter with Howard Cosell's very modern position that to be a professional all one need do is get paid for it and take it seriously.

It's like people have come to think that there is no dignity in being a tradesman. That just steams my clams. I think the trades are inherently dignified and the persons practicing them make them more so every time they lift a tool to a job.
That very recent modern need to use high faulting language to describe a perfectly dignified avocation or trade is I think a terrible thing. It speaks to our collective insecurity. It suggests that somehow we have bought into the wrong headed idea that dignity can only be attained from fancy words, college educations, and clean fingernails.

I say HOOEY.

Same is true for ART. It's just a word. Any fine arts major at any school of art would instruct that not one of the trades is art rather they are “craft” that when you blow a glass vase and make it beautiful you haven’t made art unless you have dome something to deconstruct it because things that serve a practical purpose are not art they are craft.
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Then when the tradesman gets his pennies in a bunch over that the fine arts person is nonplussed that the tradesman is unable to see the dignity in a craft. The fine artist wonders why the tradesman has a need to insist on the use of a word that simply doesn’t apply.
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Granted that’s a very extreme analogy but face it - it’s dead on, what with the fine artist insisting on excluding from the definition art any thing that actually serves a purpose and the tradesman insisting unless he can call his work “art” he can’t find dignity and feels less than and insulted? Who is being the idiot the fine artist for insisting on a purist positon or the tradesman who wants to use an unnessary word?
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Maybe they both are all that fuss over the concept in a word.
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I used to argue ferociously with the art majors at Mass College of Art as I was a tradesman and felt my work to be lovely and worthy. For some reason the word "art" was important to me. Why that was I can not recall.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Don’t be mean. I might like a carve-right. Ya never know.
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No I am not saying anything at all like your Singer design example suggests. A computer is still little more than a glorified calculator with is little more than a glorified pencil and paper which is - - - - - - (you get it) .
However I’ll offer this: Once you reduce a design to a binary set of numbers and provide the binary result to a second computer that then interprets them giving then shape as does a CNC machine you will have reduced your participation on the process to “Machine Operator.” You set the machine up change the cutters and measure the result to see if the machine needs tweaking.
That standing alone is a hell of a long distance away from the physical work of the tradecraft. It’s a little too far for me to apply the title Tradesman.
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Then enters the issue of mass production. Whether or not you go on to produce a zillion exact binaraily perfect copies in no way speaks to the fact of that very first piece being little other than the "first off" on the production line. If you made it by hand (even using conventional machines to reduce the labor) each piece would be different no matter how you tried to make them perfectly identical. I cherish those differences and little errors. They are part of why the work is beautiful.
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In theory you could introduce those differences and “errors” into the mass manufactured items with a program code. They wouldn’t feel right through. They’d look like they were each a mass produced thing just tricked out to fool the uninitiated.


Here, try this idea on: A mass produced item has a certain look and feel no matter how well made or how superb the design and engineering. It still looks and feels like a thing made in a lot of many identical pieces. That can be a good thing but it's not terribly artistic nor is it tradecraft. It's just a lot of something off a production line.
I see things that have too much tooling in them in the same way. It makes sense to use a jig like a Leigh or a PC or an Incra if one has lots of dovetails to do. However it may make more sense to make 'em the old fashioned way if one wishes to showcase real hand work as opposed to merely gittin a bunch of drawers out of the way. One might also use the jigs to produce a "cool" effect like the inlaid dovetail effect. Ever wonder if it's possible to do that by hand? Of course it is. It's just a second set of tails and another piece of wood. Yet those of us who do it almost always use the jigs. It because we are seeking that machined technically precise look. It's entirely the opposite of the hand made look. Yet, it can be beautiful. Go figure. A time and place for everything I guess.





Art, as well as what actually constitutes "art", is wholly subjective. We just have different opinions about what qualifies as "art".
Yes it is indeed. Each among us may have an opinion and there need be no reason to come to blows over those differences.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Well now there's a diplomat who could get elected.
Unlike me who polarizes people like it was free.

[Lee DeRaud]

So then Ummm why are you so ticked off at me?

All I did was state that - given the specific context of "art" and under the theory that I believe it suppresses development of the trade skills - I don't like it. I wouldn't call it art and then I stated why.

I also indicated what context I might like it - and I might very much like one. I just wouldn't take the massive leap of calling it art. What's the big deal so it's not art. That doesn't detract from the skills and science.My only real beef with you is this idea you keep flogging that whether something is "art" or not is somehow connected to what tools are used (or not used) to produce it. That dog won't hunt.

[Keith Outten]

A chisel or CNC router, they are both just tools. Neither one produces anything until a human brain gets involved.

Draw with a pencil or with a mouse, there is no difference as both require a creative thought process before anything is produced that is tangible.

Tradesman, Craftsman, Professional...these are just titles and they are of no real value. What matters is who can get the job done.

There are three kinds of people in this world;

1. People who make things happen.
2. People who watch things happen.
3. People who don't know what the heck is happening.

.

[Per Swenson]

Just gonna chime in here briefly.
I am sure my Bob will add his nickles later.
We bought one.
I have not used it. (this being install season)
There is no point and click and let the machine do it.
Most of our work starts out on paper.
Now we bought a scanner so we can carve quickly in clay
or mold in plaster then scan it into the machine.
I will post a original picture below of something we will transfer.
The notion some hold, that this machine is akin to a dishwasher,
you know close the door and remove in the morning ,is horse puckey.

Unless you count spinning, glazing and firing the dish's.
Sure any body can do it. Just like good/bad photoshop.
For that matter maybe I should write this in fountain pen and sealing
wax, then send it off to Keith so he could throw it on the Guttenberg.
I am sorry for the rant, but there it is.

Per

Note: The relief below was hand made by Bob.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I have to weigh in here...it takes every bit as much talent to operate a computer driven machine to do anything done by hand in the past is not more. Talent is talent no matter what arena it hails from. If you resist machines like this then there better not be any electrically powered woodworking machines in your shop. Either you are a purist or you're not, there's really no in between.

[Shari Loveless]

deleted. certainly wouldn't want to offend any sensitives.

[nic obie]

This thread is getting mighty close to a discussion of religion.

Beware the Almighty TOS ;).