Laser Cutting Suggestions

[Joseph Ucuzoglu]

I have been thinking of purchasing a Laser Cutter / Engraver and starting up a business. It seems like the machines are very versitile and lots of options for different types of products to sell.

But the problem is that I am a complete newbie to the whole industry.

Which machines(brands) are generaly good to get started with?

Are there any brands that have caused people trouble?

Is it even worth looking at wattage under 25? I have seen some resonable priced starter systems with 10 or 15 watts.

How do the prices and capabilities of Laser Cutters compare to other types of electronic engravers and routers?

Do you feel that if I had sufficient contacts with people needing plaques, signs, name tags and branched out if need be into producing custom rubber stamps that I could make enough to pay for the likely cost of the lease on the machine and make a little extra cash?


Thanks for the advice.

[Dave Fifield]

Hi Joseph,

Welcome to the SMC laser woodworking forum. Your questions have pretty much all been asked and answered on this forum already. I suggest you spend a few hours and read the whole of the archives. In addition to getting a great deal of insight as to the business side of things, you'll also gather a ton of knowledge on the various laser engraving machines out there.

Quick answers from me would be:

1. Brand - depends on what features you need, what level of support you would require and price. Not an easy one to be specific on. I love my Epilog laser, others love their Universal lasers etc....

2. Trouble brands - not really - pretty much every brand has feature issues IMO, but they all seem to be fairly reliable.

3. Less than 25W - not for a business. You will need SPEED, that means you need POWER. 45W and above would be my recommendation.

4. Price comparison of lasers to other methods - lasers cost more.

5. Business viability - to be blunt, no, I don't think there's a very good case for a business that ONLY does laser engraving of plaques, signs, name tags and rubber stamps. Do a search on eBay for "Laser Engraved" and you'll see the actual prices that people are willing to pay, and the number of sales that just don't happen. There really isn't that big of a market for this stuff IMO. I got a good deal on my current laser engraver from a guy whose laser engraving business failed due to lack of interest. I believe most successful businesses will use laser engravers as just one part of their business - they usually offer many and varied services.

Others will have differing opinions to mine. Read 'em all and decide for yourself. Before you swoop, do a detailed business plan to work out exactly how much you'll need to charge for each item/service and how much your overheads will be etc. - make sure you know what you're getting yourself into upfront!

Cheers,
Dave F.

[Joseph Ucuzoglu]

Dave

Thank you for your response. Especialy those coments reffering to the viability of a business based soley on this one piece of equipment.

My situation is a bit unique in that I don't need the money to support myself involved with the proposed business. That being said I would hate to look foolish and have such a low demand that I don't even cover the cost of the equipment lease and make a small profit.

I will be moving to a small town, located in the center of several other small towns, apparently they have lots of craft festivals. In addition I will have a very good relationship with the administrative staff at the large local hospital (which may or may not result in any business or leads for me). Lastly I feel like there are a few small online niches too small for any established business to exploit profitably where I could generate some demand.

All in all it sounds like a large up front investment (to get a 50 watt laser min) for the types of returns I am aiming for.

So what types of businesses make use of the lower wattage models?

Are they mostly really elaborate hobyists that use those?

[Lee DeRaud]

Well, speaking as one of those "elaborate hobbyists" you mentioned, it sounds like if you really want to start a business, you're going at the whole thing completely backwards. A laser is just a tool...a very cool tool, but just a tool nonetheless. Figure out your business plan and then start shopping for tools.

[Ed Lang]

First, welcome.

I bought a CNC Router and a 50W laser in 2005. As of today, I am just starting to feel like I can take on a few jobs and get them done. Lots of learning for me on these two machines. I make toys and small craft items in my shop. I think the CNC Router will assist me in making a better product and faster. The Laser will enhance my product. Now that is what I thought...... As it turns out, the CNC and Laser bot are wonderful for sign making. Yes, I have had lots of folks asking about signs. I was told that after getting either, I would start to make signs.... I didn't think so but it is happening. I am glad I spent the extra and got the 50W machine. Take your time, look at everything ask questions... Lots of questions. I found that a hands on demo with my wood was the best for me to decide what power I needed. I went into the demo with an idea what I wanted but the cutting and engraving of MY WOOD told me exactly what I needed.

You have been given good advice above so I will not retype it.

I have a Universal Laser M-300 50W machine. It was right for me. I also got real close to Epilog and it was neck and neck in the final lap. I think there are more Epilog users here on SMC than ULS or others.

Keep us posted and be sure to let us know when you place your order!

Don't forget to think about the vent on the laser.

[Joseph Ucuzoglu]

Please keep the comments coming. I really do appriciate the comments, especialy the ones that urge caution.

Once I am situated in the area and have analysed the local demand I should put together a primary list of things I want to concentrate on producing. Then with that I should look objectively at the tools and decide which one is most cost effective for meeting my goals. After that I should look at the tools capabilities and determine if there are any other areas I want to experiment with since I already own the equipment.

I think the reality of the situation is that there are probably many tools and methods which can accomplish similar goals. For example if I settled on awards, plaques, name tags and small signs then there seems a variety of tools such as Sublimation, Router Engravers and Laser Engravers.

Each tool/technique seem to have their own advantages/disadvantages.

I feel like sublimation may not provide that quality proffessional look. But then again maybe I should get some samples before I make that assumption. It also seems like it would be resonably labor intensive. (Image Setup, printing, then line up item and use heat press to transfer image).

Router Engravers seem like an interesting fit, they are cheaper, seem like ventilation is not a real concern. But I imagine that the acuracy and detail may not be an option, which may not matter if I am not trying to imprint photographs.

Lastly Lasers seem like they do it all but have exaust issues and are rather expensive. But they seem so flexible that it seemed like a tool you could buy and gives you so many options. Maybe I am giving the tool too much credit and there are logisticaly things that I am not seeing that cannot be done profitably with a laser compared to other methods.

Thoughts?

[Keith Outten]

Joseph,

No matter what you decide to do with your engraver make sure you include signs in the mix of offerings. In a very short time you will find that sign work is much more profitable and requires less time than just about any other type of engraving work. Even simple designs made with wood, Corian and glass will grow your business faster than you could imagine.

You can engrave a photograph which takes about 60 minutes for 60 bucks or simple text on glass that takes 15 minutes for 150 bucks / 250 bucks installed. Start visiting the construction contractors and reality management companies in your area and leave them a couple of samples, you will have more work than you can do in a short period of time. I started with a 35 watt Epilog then added a ShopBot CNC router and I do a little bit of dye-sub work. The engraver got my business going and when I purchased the ShopBot last year it was paid for on the first job. Had I known about the possibilities of making signs up front I could have paid for my laser in 6 months instead of 36.

My 2cents

.

[Joe Pelonio]

Joseph,

If you are in an area that has regular craft shows and attracts tourists from other areas you could eventually make some money selling crafts but probably not enough to pay for the laser. I will probably do some of that eventually when I "retire" but by then it will have paid for itself. I am using it as an additional tool in my sign business, along with plotters and other equipment. Much of my laser work is for other sign shops that do not have a laser, cut acrylic letters, name badges/plates, then custom work for electrical and alarm companys, and prototype work for designers of products like electronic components. I managed to get a couple of jobs that were big enough to by themselves almost pay for the machine, but
I'm in the Seattle area with high tech (and a mega-software company)
plus in this city of Bellevue alone there are 6 other sign shops who are competitors yet will come to me for laser work along with others from Seattle. In the small town you are moving to there would probably not be the same opportunities. As for the hospital, I do work for one here including parking garage signs, name badges, desk and door nameplates, directional and wayfinding signage, but all of that added up is still not a significant amount of business.

[Rodne Gold]

Here's my 2c worth . You are entering a ultra competitive field with no knowledge whatsoever , its similar to buying a diagnostic machine for high tech engines without knowing how a car works or what cars you going to use it on or what it really does. Ventilation is the least of your worries re lasers , getting ppl to come to you is. The only way you will make it is if you are the only guy in town with a laser , if you have competiton in your area , you have almost no chance.
Im not being harsh , just realistic. Take lee's advice!!!
Personally , I think as a total newbie , you would make more money buying and selling bananas . I think a laser is a huge boon for an existing engraving or trophy bus , but not so hot as a start up thing.
Here is an article I wrote about what one can do with a laser which might give you some direction as to niche type markets
http://www.engravingetc.org/forum/messages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1617.1

[John Minton]

You have been given a lot of good advice by a lot of smart people. But you have to look at your area and your market. In the central Fl. market I know of at least 5 small business doing well and all they have is a laser. It all comes down to how you market yourself, price and quality. Doing work for businesses that don't have a laser is a good idea also think outside the box, there are more places that will use your service that you have not even thought of. I am surprised almost everyday with what people come to me for that I had never though of.

good luck
John

[Joseph Ucuzoglu]

Again lots of great advice, thank you.


The more I look into it, the more I have to agree with the assessments that a laser is an excellent ad on piece of equipment to an established business and if I purchased one with no pre-existing client base I would be fighting an uphill battle to justify the purchase.

Whatever business I do end up starting I am sure its going to be competitive. But I appreciate the advice, I think I take away from this that I need to focus on a single product/service to provide. Once I have figured out a potentially profitable niche then I can purchase more economical tools suited to the project at hand.

Seems like I am narrowing my options to either to either engraved items or signs. Rather then purchasing an expensive laser that could do both to some extent, there are much less expensive options to get started if I choose one or the other. That at least minimizes potential losses. And a cheaper investment will be much easier to recoup.



Keep the ideas flowing, but thank you all with industry experience for helping me avoid some potential pitfalls, it makes forums like this really valuable.

[Lee DeRaud]

Seems like I am narrowing my options to either to either engraved items or signs. Rather then purchasing an expensive laser that could do both to some extent, there are much less expensive options to get started if I choose one or the other. That at least minimizes potential losses. And a cheaper investment will be much easier to recoup.Uh, you did see the "Neat machine" thread, didn't you?:cool:

[Joe Pelonio]

Feel free to pm me if you want more info or have questions on the sign (Vinyl Plotter) business, I have been doing it now for 13 years, almost 12 of that before we had the laser. Here in a major city (for WA, pop. 120k) I have seen 6 open and fail within 6 mo-2 years of opening Currently there are still 8 of us, 5 within a 1 mile radius. I think there are others here (like Keith) that might help on signs.

[Keith Outten]

Joe,

Possibly you can share some information about vinyl plotters. I have been considering purchasing a plotter to cut large sandblast masks and I would appreciate any information you might have concerning manufacturers and models as well as software packages.

[Keith Outten]

Seems like I am narrowing my options to either to either engraved items or signs. Rather then purchasing an expensive laser that could do both to some extent, there are much less expensive options to get started if I choose one or the other. That at least minimizes potential losses. And a cheaper investment will be much easier to recoup.


Joseph,

You might consider purchasing a ShopBot instead of a laser engraver. CNC routers are a bit more difficult to learn to use but more profitable if signs are your main products. A ShopBot is in the $10,000.00 range but the payback can be very quick since the profit margin is higher than traditional engraving work. Commercial signage is in great demand now with the construction industry boom. The size limitations of an engraving cabinet are not as restrictive with a full size router, 4 by 8 feet if you decide to purchase the standard ShopBot and I think there is a 5 by 10 foot model as well.

The down side to CNC routing is the amount of floor space you must dedicate to the machine. The software requires much more effort to learn however many experienced ShopBotters will tell you that 99% of the work is done in 2D and it is rarely reccomended that you purchase expensive 3D software or learn 3D modeling. Experience with CAD software is a plus but Corel Draw will generally suffice in addition to the software that ships with the machine.

These are just my observations and I must admit that I am still new to the business and not an expert by any means. I have seen a huge amount of growth in my business over the last year though, mostly due to the capability that my router added to my workshop. I am still using my laser engraver a fair amount of time though, both machines compliment each other extremely well.

Note Rodne's comment above concerning competition and take heed. Most areas of sign making and engraving can be ultra competitive and the trophy business in my area is just brutal. I tend to stay away from my competitors by offering a totally different product line that I believe is more innovative. My selection of materials is unique and I have found a good fit, above the less expensive plastic sign model and below the big electric signs in cost.

I have also found a new area machining custom jobs for our local construction industry like ceiling access panels and custom HVAC vents. This takes more time to develope a market but it will come automatically as your customer base grows and they learn that you are capable of producing products that fit their needs. I am also doing custom inlays and machning for the local solid surface counter top shops.

With the proper marketing I can make my annual salary on a part-time basis, your mileage may vary :)

.

[Joe Pelonio]

Keith,

On plotters, I have had 4 over the years, at the moment two. Currently I think the best deal on the market is the Graphtec, I have the FC5100-75 which handles 30" material. I also have a Gerber (made by Mutoh) 650
which became worn to the point where letters smaller than about 3/4" are misformed. Unfortunately the repair cost was greater than the price of
the new Graphtec. I still use it for larger work when running both at the same time. I also had an Ioline which wore out with several problems and was not worth fixing. For sandblast stencil a problem with friction feed plotters is that the glossy plastic release liner is slippery and tracking is not great, you have to really slow it down. If you get a sprocket plotter (generally more expensive) you have to first check that the stencil is available with sprocket holes in the size you'll be using. In fact you should check availability of stencil size anyway, no use paying for a 64" plotter if you can only get 30" material. Normally I'll use a different blade for stencil than for vinyl, the manufacturer of the plotter will have recommendations, normally 45 degrees for vinyl, 60 for stencil.

As for software, I am using a Gerber product which origially cost over $1,000 and the latest versions are close to $3,000. For mainly sandblast stencils that is overkill. There are less expensive packages available at various sign supply companies, or you could go with something like CoCut from $349 that allow you to plt from Corel, Adobe Illustrator, Freehand or Autocad.
http://www.cocut.com/index.dml?unten=price.htm&von=html
It's been my experience that you are better off buying your plotter and software from the same place in order to ensure compatability and support for both, but at least make sure that the software includes driver for your plotter.