Input sought on this built-in bookcase planning

[Jay Michaels]

I'm going to build some built-in bookcases in my house. The complicating factor is that the ceiling is 10' high. Of course, many have suggested I make some cabinets on the bottom half and then put shelves above so that the shelves would be 8' tall or shorter, but I don't want that; I want all open shelving. The structure will be 12 inches deep. All components will be made with 3/4" plywood. (For whatever it may be worth, I have planned to make some shelves stationary -- the darkened gray shelves along with the top and bottom, but the other shelves would be adjustable using steel shelf pilasters routed into the vertical components)

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Plywood is not available in my area in 10' lengths; I have to work with 4x8' plywood. I've already sourced some that should work well for this project.

So the question becomes: how to I design/construct the vertical portions of this design?

The best I can come up with is to double them up and sandwich a total of four pieces to make one vertical component as shown in the second image I've attached to this post. On one side of the component would be an 8-foot tall span (yellow), with a 2-foot long piece above it (red); then on the other side would be the 2-foot long piece on the bottom (red) and an 8-foot piece (yellow) above that, such that they overlap with the pieces on the other side. (I'm struggling with describing this in words; hopefully my crude sketchup image conveys what I mean).

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The alternative would be to essentially just build 8-foot tall bookcases, and then build little 2-foot-tall bookcases that I just affix to the top in a way that should look relatively seamless, especially after some paint.

Are there any other approaches I'm missing? Does either of these two options look better than the other for any particular reason?

[Zachary Hoyt]

The second option looks better to me. It'll be a lot easier to slide the 8' bookcases into place and then pop the little ones on top, unless you have a lot of very robust friends and relations to help you.

[John Kananis]

I agree, the second option makes life easier. Or, if you're willing to sacrifice a little shelf space, I would personally prefer a 24" cabinet base (with doors) and an eight foot bookcase attached above.

[Cameron Wood]

Butt joining the verticals with biscuits or whatever to get 10' would be fine (less than 10' if you want to be able to install it), the look would be no different than the first idea.

If the bays are 30", the total width approaches 16'. Realistically, it would be made in three sections, so two of the middle verticals would be doubled.

[Richard Coers]

You can buy 4'x10' birch plywood. No idea where you are located, but here is a couple of distributors that have it. https://detering.com/product/3-4-d3-birch-4x10-plywood/
https://www.toledoplywood.com/product/3-4-4-x-10-vc-g2s-domestic-rot-nat-birch/

[Bill Dufour]

I would put a row of short drawers, like a pencil drawer, at about waist height. Then make that a joint top and bottom. Or even a pull out shelf if you really want all shelf.
How will you get this into the room? Will it be built in place and never leave unless it is cut up?
For shear walls the plywood joints join at a stud and both sheets get nailed to the same stud. No need for such close spacing but you get the idea for the back piece.
Bill D

[Bill Dufour]

I think it would easier to glue up the sides and top/bottom boards then fabricate from plywood. Do you plan to leave the plywood edges exposed or hide then with trim.
BilL D

[Steve Demuth]

You don't mention the backs. What is the backing, and how are these to be attached to the wall?

Also worth mentioning: if these are to be actually filled with books, you're talking about well over a ton of books total, and potentially over 300lbs per vertical member at the bottom. Design appropriately for those weights.

As to how - if you're ok with building in place, I rather like the double-up method. The wider verticals will be a nice design element, in my opinion. Gives you some options on how to face them proud of the shelves, e.g.

But if you're not into building in place, and want to build these in the shop and then install them, you have to build stackable components as in your second plan, or some variant.

[Bill Dufour]

Make sure to design the floor to take the tonnage of weight. Story of the San Francisco library is the night before the shelves came in the architect had to order and place steel plates to run under the shelf units to span the floor joists.
Bill D

[stephen thomas]

In the past i sometimes needed plywood elements that were from 9' to 12' long. Often for contour bandsaw & shaper patterns to carry curved flooring, nosings etc for amphitheatres.

For 3/4" thickness, I made up a parallel finger joint bit from common router wing cutters and pilot bearings, cut the joints, and epoxied the pieces on something flat with a sheet of plastic under the joint. Then rip the finished sheet after lightly sanding the joint flush. You have to be careful handling the full sheet, but with 2 or 3 fingers per edge x 1/2" deep, it was strong enough. For thinner plywood, and more critical joints, i scarf jointed it. Scarf joints require both end-wise clamping, as well as cauls to press the joint flat to a rigid flat surface. It's a better structural joint, but less visually appealing, and more difficult.

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Visually, your shelves will probably benefit from verticals that are at least 1" thickness.
3 layers of 3/8" ply would be about 1-1/8".

Personally, for actual book shelves, i like verticals that generally are no more than 24" apart - i like a lot of verticals to prop the books, and to create display and storage "cubbies".
Most of mine are actually only 15" to 18" apart, and the shelves are either 3/8" thick, or 1/2" thick solid wood (for the longer spans) with the edges scalloped down to 3/8" to fit the same sliding dados.

That last photo above is not clear: The router has a tilt base, and there is a bevel, not a flat gain. (See following attachment)

[Thomas McCurnin]

Two comments.

First, I think I would just build boxes (in whatever dimension you choose) and stack them, fasten them together and fasten them to the wall studs. That sounds easiest to me. Building one giant box on site sounds like a big challenge.

Second, pay attention to the spans of the shelves. Books are heavy and 3/4 ply will bend in lengths over 24". Use a deflection calculator to figure this out. https://woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator/ You may have to add hardwood strips to the front and back of the shelves or double up on plywood thickness, or reduce shelf span.

[Cameron Wood]

A quick search gives the weight of a cu' of books at 12 lbs- roughly confirmed by weighing some.

So a 2' wide by 6' tall bookshelf loaded would weigh less than the average guy- not floor crushing loads.

[stephen thomas]

So a 2' wide by 6' tall bookshelf loaded would weigh less than the average guy- not floor crushing loads.

My bookshelves tend to have floor crushing loads. :)
& I never claim to be a neatnik, but the shelving system would permit it if i was.

My wife has extensive units of her own made on the same principle, and she keeps them neater.

The shelves slide out for examination or ease of accessing the contents (instead of pulling a book by the top of its spine, say)
Many of the ones made for my wife actually have low drawers inserted here and there.

Most shelves start as 3/8" baltic birch plywood.
Longer spans get 1/2" thick solid wood, with the ends coved on the underside, to yield the 3/8" edge to slide in the dadoes.
Some of these can sort of be made out in the full front shot, on the lefthand side of the case.

The ones shown on one wall of my office (3 walls have bookshelves the forth has a large window) was made from Lowe's 2 x 12's back in the days you could find QS material in the 16 ft pile, and save it out to dry stickered in the loft. I used machines to prep the material, but the cove mouding on the front edges, and the dadoes were all done with neandertools for relaxation. A wooden dado with scribes for dadoes, and a Stanley 45 for the coves, and for the relief/central bead moulding (not visible) down the center of each vertical to relieve strain from humidity fluctuation.

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[stephen thomas]

Stackable boxes have been mentioned.
I used to sell these. Still the same dado concept, but all machine made parts.
These were prototype units.
Later versions came in colors, with mix-n-match color shelves.
all had the option of adjustable leveler feet, all after these were full KD/flat pack.
Some had glass shelves, drawer options, 1/2" shelves with cove drop for heavier use, etc.

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[Derek Cohen]

Jay, I built a wall of bookcases for a second family room. This room looks out over the garden and is sunny, and my wife loves the cozy feel in winter. i mention this as the basis for the design may be different from your own. The materials are 3/4" veneered ply (I cannot recall the wood, but it is on the lighter side) with a jarrah face frame).

https://i.postimg.cc/cJtcydFy/IMG-0152.jpg (https://postimg.cc/4KZcpRCB)

https://i.postimg.cc/2SKxK1F7/IMG-0152.jpg (https://postimg.cc/18D6g5d8)

The shelving is kept smaller and the design features non-adjustable, fixed shelves. The box-like look is deliberate as this is more restfull to the eye than shelves that meander and appear erratic owing to differing settings.

Construction involved curring the verticles, routing dados, fitting the shelves into these, and then adding the face frame.

To deal with the 8' board lengths and 10' ceiling, find a way to connect shorter length that appear natural. With the height you are going to have, I like Bill's idea of a line of thin drawers through middle of the bookcase. This will break up the expanse of shelves. In fact, you could add a vertical set of drawers (like a cross) as well (either one at the centre or even two at thirds. they might only reach the horizontal line of drawers).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[andrew whicker]

Here is a built in I just built (paint grade). So a few things that might help..

1) If you are using a face frame (FF), no one will know you used multiple cabinets if the FF is the same width for every stile and every rail. Below photo is (obviously) 3 cabinets.. one big middle one, two side ones. However, I could have easily made 5 cabinets and used the same stile width every time and no one would be the wiser, except me.

2) I made some little dividers because the customer didn't want a ton of FF in the entire project. They are perfectly capable of holding lots of weight and I think they look nice.

So, I would do the following (in my opinion / how I like to work) by making 3 to 6 cabs off site (depending on look). Making the kick / bottom support off site. making a simple top box for crown install off site. Then bring it all on site. Level out / install your bottom support (3" - 4" tall), then install the cabs, then install the top piece. Install the FF, baseboard and crown.

W/ one other guy you can get the cabs to site.. pretty sure. : )

I have yet to build a "built in" on site. I understand you can do things like share side walls / i.e. make walls thinner thru out the project which would make it a bit more clean looking, but I think with such a big project as yours in size a 1.5" or so FF width would look appropriate. Also, if you do plan on having shelves that are moveable, you have to make sure the pins only take up half the hole depth / half the wall thickness.


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[Jay Michaels]

I cannot thank you all enough for your input; I really appreciate it. I've moved on to version 2.0 of this project by incorporating many of the suggestions in this thread.

First off, I'm going to build 7 bays instead of 6; I think the 24" length will be better (and generate less sag). The entire unit will be 10" deep rather than 12". We don't want a bunch of knick-knacks all over this; it is essentially just for books; so 10" will be plenty.

Also, given my lack of 10' plywood (I've checked the region and come up empty; which is fine; physically handling that would have likely been beyond my limits), I'm going to build them in my shop and I'm going to build 7 units that are ~86" tall first; those will be the bulk of the project. Then I'll have some little ~24" units that I will install on top that. All will have 1/4" ply backs and all will be screwed to the wall in stud locations. The entire unit will sit on a ~6" tall base that I will build ahead of time (the base is that tall to accommodate baseboard in that room that is 5.5" tall; I want to put that baseboard around the base of this cabinet to to really tie it into a built-in look). There is also crown molding, so at the conclusion of the installation of the shelf units themselves, I'll build a small structure at the top to accommodate the ~7"-tall crown. Between the baseboard and crown, that reduces the unit to about 110" tall.

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The gray/dark red units shown in the image are the lower units approximately 86" tall. The red shelves will be fixed; dadoed into the sides for structure; the white shelves will be adjustable (using Knape & Vogt pilasters dadoed into the sides and clips). The upper units are the peach/light red.

As you can see, the vertical segments between each unit will essentially be approximately 1.5" wide (two slabs of 3/4" ply). When complete, the entire unit will be painted white.

I will be affixing some hardwood strips to the front of each shelf (in the shop) to give it a cleaner edge and accept the paint well. I would also like to affix the same hardwood strips to the verticals, again to cover the plywood edges and accept the paint. But I cannot build a ~15-foot long by 10-foot tall faceframe that I then attach in one fell swoop - that seems to be inviting disaster.

So how would you go about constructing the equivalent of the face frame for the verticals, given that each of the 7 bays will be built in the shop, moved up to the room, and installed on site, yet I'd like the verticals (that share the walls of two separate bays) to be covered by one 1.5"-wide hardwood strip to take paint?

The only thing I can come up with is (1) build the base, install it and level it, (2) build the seven upright units in the shop (including hardwood strips on the front of all horizontal components); install them in place by leveling and attaching to stud locations, ensuring each is butted up to the other as closely as possible, and then (3) attaching the 1.5"-wide hardwood strips on the verticals as a last step before painting in place. Is there a better way I am missing?

[andrew whicker]

If there are no doors AND this is paint grade..

Then I personally would nail them on w 18g nails by feel. You can feel the offsets are equal pretty easily. On the one I showed below I installed the stiles first. I was careful but I'm also reasonable. I think you can feel 1/32" difference if you really pay attention.

[andrew whicker]

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This is how it looked before the face frame was installed. Note that I had to add a "face frame" along the bottom to make sure the baseboard sat on the same plane of the FF. And gave me something to nail to.

Also note the big gaps against the walls. These walls were pretty badly bowed. I had to scribe those stiles. You'll have to do some scribing on yours too if it fits in between walls

You can also kind of see how bad the floor is. This is a concrete basement floor and it was all over the place. Leveling the toe kick can sometimes take a while, but once you get it installed and it's sturdy it makes the rest pretty straightforward

[Patrick C Daugherty]

From experience, one cannot build 8 foot tall bookcases horizontally in the room and tilt them up into place if the ceiling is 8 Ft tall. They will almost but not quite fit before hitting the ceiling. I would expect the same situation to occur in a ten ft situation. Plan on sitting them on about a four/five inch base.

[stephen thomas]

I always T & G'd any face frames or solid stock flats on.
It is self jigging, self aligning, and seldom requires much in the way of fasteners if you glue it. Of course if it is glued, it is permanent....

Don't make the fit too tight. Not sloppy, but almost loose. Also, to help it go together easily in the field especially aligning 2 parallel verticals, take the time with some 120 or 100 grit sandpaper to quickly knock the sharp edges and loose splinters off the tongues. Or set up your cutter set to bullnose the tongues as they are generated.

FWIW the tongues on the plywood, for production work are always done between 2 matched cutters spaced exactly for the groove size i want to generate.
Always reference the same face, for matching parts. etc.

The grooves in the solid can be done with fixed or adjustable slotter on the shaper.

Both pieces can be done instead with a router and stacked cutter set.
I would have at least 2 routers set up, though, one for tongues, one for grooves so as not to lose registration swapping bits and fence locations back and forth.
The grooves can be done with a router bit, but it is more difficult than the wing cutters on a shaper. Then again, the depths are fairly shallow.

Not trying to say that i have any intrinsically "better", only that i was always willing to spend time in the shop to make an installation go faster on site with less tsuris.

[Tom Bender]

Plan for the exact stuff you will be storing on those shelves. You say "not full of knickknacks" but reality is going to arrive. Small books are going to look silly in those huge shelves. If you have enough of them you can stack them two high and two deep.

This is going to involve a lot of dusting.

How will you access the upper shelves. Come to think about it, how will you access the lower couple of shelves? Drawers to store sweaters an' stuff would be more useful

I recently finished a smaller bookshelf and painted the back a nice grass green. It looks way better than wood and the books stand out better than stuffing them into dark holes. Paint before installing then touch up as needed. Actually do all the finishing before assembly.