Stub Tenons

[Jerry Bruette]

First time making panel doors, go easy on me. The rails and stiles will be 2 1/2 inches wide and the panel will be 1/4 inch ply. Is there a rule of thumb on how long the tenons should be? Books I'm reading and videos I'm watching say 3/8 of an inch. The stock will be oak, if it matters.

[stephen thomas]

Plenty of people make the tenons the same length as the panel groove.
That is how so many "cope & stick" shaper sets, (or even router sets) are sold.
I have seen failures. Many people apparently never have them (failures).
But it is poor joinery.

Some shops including some factories used to add a dowel or 2 per corner. But at that point, mortise and tenon starts to make more sense, time & equipment - wise.

I tend toward overkill.
Since all of mine are M & T anyway, a 1-1/2" or even longer when my OCD kicks in, is common in my shop.
It does make everything self-locating/self jigging when running the glue clamp, so as you finish slopping glue on the next set of parts & and open the clamp, just a quick check for square before stacking a door to finish drying, is necessary with very little extra clamping.

Since you are using ply panels, there will be less force on the frames from shrinkage and expansion, and if some glue extrudes in the corners and binds the ply panel, it will actually increase the racking strength.
Jury out whether that additional diaphragm strength improves or confounds warp resistance. :)

[John TenEyck]

Some folks claim that stub tenons no longer than the depth of the panel dado is plenty for cabinet doors if cope and stick joinery is used, due to the added glue area in the joint. I've never been convinced of that so I add a loose tenon at each corner. Also, if you glue in the plywood panel the door will never come apart.

John

[Warren Lake]

taught us with tennons in 81. They were cabinetmakers and learned that way and it was for 1000 years. Proven ways have been affected by tooling manufacturers that sell saving time and now you can make a door even with a router bit.

[Ron Citerone]

I had a 1/2" deep x1/4" x2" wide door panel tenon fail when a cloth diaper got caught in it several times. Then I started making doors with a haunch mortise and tenon. I believe they are rock solid and don't take that long to do once you do a few!

[Richard Coers]

I just use the standard cope and stick router bits. Built my kitchen in 1989, still going strong. The fit has to be right in the set, so I prefer the set that can be shimmed for a snug fit on the stub tenon. Just a caution with that 1/4" plywood. It's not 1/4" thick and if you plan on gluing it in you'll need a smaller width groove or veneer to shim the plywood for a good fit.

[Warren Lake]

or use 3/8 and back cut it for a more solid door. Those doors are tongue and groove. I dont do them. Ive seen them fail but rare. As soon as you go up to a larger door it doesnt work so I see it as poor way when you have to change to some other way to do a larger door.

[Tom Bender]

For kitchen cabinets the lowers get all the abuse. Build them stronger. People will use the door to help them stand up. Uppers can be held together with spit.

[stephen thomas]

For kitchen cabinets the lowers get all the abuse. Build them stronger. People will use the door to help them stand up.

If there are cabinet doors on the lowers, they are a cheap ash install anyway.

Well, maybe except for under the sinks for trashcan and plumbing access; if it is not a commercial sink.

Lowers should all be full/over extension drawers so a person has full access to the contents, does not have to get down on hands and knees, and then pry themselves back up vertical by levering on a cabinet door for a crutch.

:)

smt<-------(somewhat) tongue in cheek....

[Larry Edgerton]

Lowers should all be full/over extension drawers so a person has full access to the contents, does not have to get down on hands and knees, and then pry themselves back up vertical by levering on a cabinet door for a crutch.
[/COLOR]

Agreed, but that only works on the high end. Last twenty years since I stopped competing with Lowes they have all been drawer lowers.

I switched to 1" tenons on everything, even drawer fronts. I would say that is long enough, no failures and with nice tight tolerances it aids in assembly. I also do 1" tenons on my face frames and end panels. I like the 1" for layout, figure out the rails and add 2". Helps me with its simplicity as I ponder all the other aspects.

[Phil Gaudio]

First time making panel doors, go easy on me. The rails and stiles will be 2 1/2 inches wide and the panel will be 1/4 inch ply. Is there a rule of thumb on how long the tenons should be? Books I'm reading and videos I'm watching say 3/8 of an inch. The stock will be oak, if it matters.

Key aspect of your plan is that you will be using 1/4" plywood panels. These will get glued in place on all four edges, making for a very strong assembly. Given this approach, tenons that equal the depth of the groove for the panel (I used 1/2" for my kitchen build) are perfectly fine. This has been a heavily used kitchen for over 20 years, and no failures.
https://i.postimg.cc/XqQ4pqMf/IMG-1265.jpg (https://postimg.cc/xNJWZ018)

[Edwin Santos]

For kitchen cabinets the lowers get all the abuse. Build them stronger. People will use the door to help them stand up. Uppers can be held together with spit.

I think shopping carts are designed to carry a disproportionate load at the back for the same reason. Many people rest their weight on them and use them like a large wheeled walker. What can you do, knees get old!

[stephen thomas]

I think shopping carts are designed to carry a disproportionate load at the back for the same reason. Many people rest their weight on them and use them like a large wheeled walker.

Then there's guys like me that never grew up and like to embarrass our wives by giving a good shove, hopping on the lower rail, and riding them down the aisle or down through the parking lot....


Had the impression it mortifies her since i don't get "invited" for grocery runs as often anymore. :)
But about a week ago she came home and mentioned "there was an old guy like me, coasting down though the parking lot standing on the back of a shopping cart."
She almost sounded wistful.

smt

[Holmes Anderson]

I don't understand the question. If using cope and stick tooling, then the decision has been made for you. If making your own M&T joints, then why use a stub tenon rather than a full length tenon?

[Warren Lake]

there is cope and stick tooling that makes a tennon.

[Rod Sheridan]

taught us with tennons in 81. They were cabinetmakers and learned that way and it was for 1000 years. Proven ways have been affected by tooling manufacturers that sell saving time and now you can make a door even with a router bit.

Yes, I make cabinet door stiles with mortises and stopped grooves for the panels.

Simple and strong, rails of course have tenons and full length grooves.

Regards, Rod

[Warren Lake]

IF straight rail and style no profile the panel groove runs right through the style. The tennon has a haunch and fills that in.

[stephen thomas]

^^^^^^^^^^^
What Warren said.
Both the strongest and the simplest system.
It adds a lot of twist resistance to the frame parts as well.

smt

[Ron Citerone]

^^^^^^^^^^^
What Warren said.
Both the strongest and the simplest system.
It adds a lot of twist resistance to the frame parts as well.

smt

Yep, even before you glue it it is rock solid!