Questions regarding the Felder BF631

[steven sivak]

HI!
I am new here and new to the combination machine world...

Regardless I have the opportunity to purchase a 1999 BF 631 for a ridiculously low price.
It does come with some issues that I need to mentally resolve before pulling the trigger.

Felder considers this an "old" machine and thus the parts are questionable as to whether Austria has them
on their shelf. Since I don't own the machine as of yet, they want $100/hr to talk to a tech! The East Coast
office claims they have one person who is familiar with the unit....

The problems that I see are as follows:
1. Only one spindle is included- and it is NOT the router spindle, which I would use
2. The spindle that is on the machine tilts forward and aft as designed but this machine has it tilted left and right.
I can see that there are two bolts and double nuts that allow one to adjust this left to right position- is this correct?
3. There are some electric issues:
a. brake for planer does not engage- planer continues to spin until it runs out of energy
b. ONLY the planer motor works- shaper and saw do not turn on
I thought I read somewhere that there is an interlock that prevents the saw/shaper motor from turning on
if the sliding blade cover is not fully in position- The blade covers (the sliding piece(s) that are moved out of the way
when changing blades, on this machine I believe it is made of three individual guards. The guard that is furthest
away from the operator when sawing, is missing but might be found. Would this missing guard be the culprit?

If I could solve these problems, the rest would be elbow grease, which I am not afraid of!

Some random pics attached- auto why they are upside down is beyond me!

519906519905519907519908519909519910

[Mike King]

Sounds like a major project. I'd suggest you raise these questions on the Felder Owners Group (https://groups.io/g/felderownersgroup) -- you are much more likely to find folk familiar with that machine there than on this forum.

[steven sivak]

thanks for the tip!

[Greg Quenneville]

There are sometimes used router spindles that come up for sale. Otherwise you could make s small router table that couples with the “S” rail at the outfeed end of the machine with a support leg. I had one of those on my first combination machine and it worked fine and was true variable speed instead of the max 10,000rpm of the router spindle.

2. The shaper trunnion is either broken or detached on the right side for the spindle to be tilted over like that.

3.The machine may not have braking…my 1999 does not as it was optional. In fact my machine has a bare bones electrical system.The electrical schematic is typically in the electrical compartment below the saw elevation handle.

4. The sliding sheet metal cover under the slider should be one piece. And the interlock switch is on the left side when looking at the slider. I seem to recall that that switch is oart of the e-stop circuit. If so it would also prevent the planer motor from running.

You may have dust in the contactors or mode select switch.

I assume the shaper hood and crosscut fence are both included?

Greg

[Bill Dufour]

Might help if we knew what machines this combines. You mentioned router and planer. Does it have a shaper as well? maybe a jointer. Never heard of one with a saw blade like yours.
I did try to look it up and all found was folks selling them as 3 in one and 5 in one machines. They also neglected to mention what those machines were.
BilL D

[john lawson]

I would put this in the category of if you are going to "get married to the machine" it may be a good fit. What I mean by that is you will have to devote yourself to this machine and take the bad with the good. You may have to be very patient and do a lot of work yourself or have it contracted out locally to a machinist who is your friend and does not gouge you too badly. You will have to learn every part of the machine. This machine probably does not have many/any electronic circuits so if you're handy with electric circuits or want to learn you should be okay. As someone mentioned parts show up occasionally and that's where patience comes in; you can normally get them for a reasonable price.

If it were me and I decided to get this machine I would put it in my shop, sort out everything I could, then make a list. Call the Felder tech and spend a few hours with him asking questions. Record the call. Be prepared and very thorough. But don't wait too long to call him, he can save you a lot of time with technical issues and set up and calibration issues. Maybe a second call a few weeks or months after the first. The biggest issues I would try to sort out before purchasing is checking out the castings, big parts of the machine and motors. You can check the winding on the motors and that might tell you if the motors are bad, won't necessarily tell you if they are good.

It's a great machine and if you are the kind of person who dedicates themself to problem solving it could be a very cost effective and satisfying way to get a great machine for very few dollars. If you are not it could be a nightmare that you wind up scrapping or giving away. Good luck either way.

[Rod Sheridan]

Might help if we knew what machines this combines. You mentioned router and planer. Does it have a shaper as well? maybe a jointer. Never heard of one with a saw blade like yours.
I did try to look it up and all found was folks selling them as 3 in one and 5 in one machines. They also neglected to mention what those machines were.
BilL D

Hi Bill, the BF631 has a shaper, a sliding table saw and a 31cm jointer/planer.

There is also an optional slot mortiser, it depends whether the owner bought that or not.

In March I was providing training for someone who purchased a used BF631.

The first photo shows the view of the saw/shaper portion with blade guard and riving knife removed.

The second shows the jointer/planer with the optional slot mortiser on (they “clip” on and off the machine to allow easy use of the jointer). The control switch allows you to select jointer/planer forward or reverse so you can use either hand of bit in the slot mortiser.

This particular machine was in excellent condition, and included the mobility kit.

520060520061

Regards, Rod

[Greg Quenneville]

It may also be helpful to know that many of the ‘99 parts are common to the CF-731 series combo machines up until around 2006. The BF series however cannot use the CF series table extensions and power feed bracket but both are still available from Felder.

The Felder user group already mentioned has complete manuals and parts diagrams in the user files section.

Greg

[steven sivak]

Thanks for the replies! There are not very many folks that have these machines but everything I have heard about them makes them worth the labor that it will take to bring this back to full operating condition.

In no specific order:
1. This machine did not come with the brake- so that explains why the planer did not come to a full stop immediately.
2. The spindle for the shaper is hinged on the left side- there are nuts and bolts that allow it to be adjusted this contradictory way but I need to investigate more fully.
3. I got the Siemens electrical diagram and forwarded them to a local machine type of electrician- lots of large machines in the Detroit area. He understood the selector switch as the culprit and he agreed with Felder that it
is a complicated and expensive switch. Next Wednesday he is bringing his tools and we will find out if the problem (only the planer motor turns on) is minor or major and an appropriate course of action.
4. The guard on this machine is multi-piece- not sure why but I know I am missing the furthest section. Since the planer motor works I will assume that the comment above about an e-stop switch is therefore moot?
5. For some reason I do not have the proper privileges to view the photo...
6. I have asked Felder USA if they can get Austria to provide a list of the parts that ARE available- thus far USA has nothing. Good to know about the 731 interchangeability with the 631, but I hope that Felder's computer is programmed to
know that???

So I will buy it if I have a good handle on what is wrong and hopefully we can get that switch to work properly without junking it. A 2k switch might be ok if the cost of the machine is reduced at least part of the way...

Also, isn't there a guy on this forum who has most of the parts? If so, maybe someone can post his contact info? Thanks

[Greg Quenneville]

Is that machine single or three phase? The switch is a Kraus Naimer unit which might be found on the second hand market. Finally, Felder part numbers changed after our machines were made, but the dealers can cross reference.

Greg

[steven sivak]

Single phase

[steven sivak]

Thanks for the tip- I have reached out to Kraus Naimer this morning...

[Rod Sheridan]

You can’t view photos because you aren’t a contributor, you need to pay at least $6 per year to be a contributor

2) the shaper spindle does not tilt left to right, either you’re mistaken or the machine is broken

Regards, Rod

[steven sivak]

The main selector switch can be bought directly from Kraus Naimer- it costs $780 which is a bargain compared to what Felder ballparked it at....

This spindle issue is the last of the big questions regarding this machine. I did not take great pictures of the issue so my words will have to suffice....
So when I looked into the machine through the spindle opening, I could clearly see that the mount, which is on the left side, is made of two pieces with
one fitting inside the other. When I lifted one side of the motor/spindle assembly, I could get it to tilt even more. Not only did the spindle lean further from
vertical, but the dial indicator, which is on the side when facing the spindle, did as well. On the outside of the machine below the indicator were two nuts/bolts
which if tightened or loosened controlled the amount of side to side tilt.
I know everyone will say it is broken, and that may be true, but it certainly was designed to allow for a certain amount of lateral movement. Hey, don't shoot me, I am only the messenger!

[steven sivak]

Actually, the attached photo shows two rusty nuts/washers at the elevation of the bottom of the crank wheel
and on either side of it.
Doesn't everybody have this on their machine?

[Greg Quenneville]

I will take photos tomorrow (Australia) to illustrate the shaper trunnion mount. Looking into the chassis you can see the two bolts that should provide adjustment of the spindle to vertical. At least it appears that way. If so, they would only be a factory adjustment mechanism-not something that would be a user adjustment normally.

I am right in the middle of a shaper set-up so my scope for detailed pictures may be limited.

Also…check ebay for that switch…might be available for cheap. Something else to consider…Felder single phase machines are a bit notorious for blowing start/run capacitors. I suspect that you might hear some humming though if that was the problem with the non-running motors. Plus it would be bad luck to have two dud motors concurrently. But I would check the switch carefully before ordering a replacement.

Greg

[steven sivak]

greg- you are the first one to confirm that in fact the shaper does move side to side! I never suggested that a user would move the spindle out of vertical, just that mine was out of vertical
for some unknown reason. The original owner, who gifted it in this condition to his grandson, while alive, is not particularly helpful in solving these problems....

Nothing on ebay at this time....

The two other motors make no sound when they are selected. I am going to inspect the machine next Wednesday (for the third time) with an electrician that deals with motors and controls as his full time job.
But prior to that I am trying to understand the following:
Is power delivered straight to the motors after leaving the 5 position switch or is there another electro/mechanical "contact" between switch and motor? If there is nothing else on the circuit, then it is either
the switch or the motor, which I too doubt as the issue. If on the other hand there is another device on the circuit- a safety switch for example, then the problem solving must include finding that device and testing it as well.

You mention a capacitor and others have mentioned some sort of interlock- Can you expand upon that for me?

[steven sivak]

Is there a way to contact a specific member from a previous post? When I click on a name I do
not see a way to send to contact the member...

[Greg Quenneville]

Steven the electrical schematic should be found inside the electrical compartment on the lower right side of the front of the machine (looking toward the switch). There were several different electrical options, but all will have a contactor between the switch and the motor. There will be an e-stop circuit, but a standard, unmodified machine should isolate every motor if any e-stop button or guard switch is in play.

The interlock mentioned is the one that the sliding cover behind the slider engages when fully closed. There may also be one on the thicknesser dust hood. NOTE: some machines don’t have those interlocks, but probably every USA machine does.

The capacitors I mentioned are the standard start and run capacitors that single phase motors use. I know some Felder owners find those capacitors fail more often than you’d expect, but I didn’t pay attention to how involved it is to replace them.

I also have a 1992 BF6-26 in 240v single phase which I can probably photograph for you if need be.

You need to pay the 6 bucks to get access to photos and member emails.

Greg

[steven sivak]

greg- I have the electrical schematic from the Felder Operating Manual.

Your info is very helpful to me and will be shared with the electrician who is coming to the sellers place of business with me.
So in addition to checking the switch for the source of the problem, we will have to inspect the contactors AND the interlock switch.

But does the fact that neither the saw motor nor the shaper motor turn on lead you to a specific failure? I wonder if a failure at the interlock
would be designed to not allow the shaper to turn on? In your understanding of the machine, is there any specific item that links these
two motors together?
6$ paid! thanks for the tip

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Steven, yes the saw and shaper use the blade access door interlock to inhibit saw and shaper motor as that’s how you access the saw blade or shaper pulleys.

Regards, Rod

[Jim Becker]

Is there a way to contact a specific member from a previous post? When I click on a name I do
not see a way to send to contact the member...
If they are a Contributor and still active, clicking on their name should provide an opportunity to send a private message. If they are just a Member, they do not have private messaging. Additionally, people come and go so looking at someone's profile to see when they last accessed the forum is a good idea.

[steven sivak]

Well then that certainly is the culprit! I say that because one of the issues or characteristics of this machine
is that I believe that the guard is made of at least two sliding panels and one appears to be missing. I could be
wrong in saying this machine is missing one of the panels, but the one that is there does not slide out of the
way of the saw blade. Remember, I know nothing about these machines and the seller, who is the grandson of the owner,
knows very little as well. Blind leading the blinder....
I can't believe that it has taken me this long to have someone tell me that these two motors are linked by an interlock switch!

[Mike King]

The shaper does tilt, but it tips toward the front of the machine (across the sliding table). Here's a link to the manual for the machine.

https://groups.io/g/felderownersgroup/files/Manuals%20&%20Drawings/BF6_and_6series_JAN95_operating_manual.pdf

[Mike King]

and the wiring diagram for a BF7 -- it may be the same as the bf6...

https://groups.io/g/felderownersgroup/files/Manuals%20&%20Drawings/BF7_KF7series_02JAN1997_wiring_diagram.pdf

[steven sivak]

Mike I am sorry to say that while it does tilt fore and aft, it also moves left to right- see post no. 2.
No need for the BF7 diagram as the document you linked to in #10 has the diagram for the BF6 machine.

[Jared Sankovich]

Mike I am sorry to say that while it does tilt fore and aft, it also moves left to right- see post no. 2.
No need for the BF7 diagram as the document you linked to in #10 has the diagram for the BF6 machine.

If it moves left and right it's either broken or partially disassembled. It's a standard trunion type mount, thr same as you would find on any tilting shaper or cabinet saw.

[steven sivak]

its not broken but the two nuts need to be readjusted to bring it to a vertical position- like I said above- read post no. 2