Good source if you want to try Japanese planes

[Cameron Wood]

I came across this Ebay seller who is knowledgeable, skilled, and has good prices on planes that he has sharpened and tuned.

Buying here would save hours of work vs other used or new and are pre-selected by a qualified eye.

If you live in a more dry climate than Japan, there will still need to be acclimating time, and more conditioning, but a great value.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/375339592687?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110 006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20231 107084023%26meid%3Dcbfa9d43b98d459e945b9cfb7c4e518 f%26pid%3D101875%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D3753889 74570%26itm%3D375339592687%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26p g%3D2332490%26algv%3DSimplAMLv11WebTrimmedV3MskuWi thLambda85KnnRecallV1V2V4ItemNrtInQueryAndCassiniV isualRankerAndBertRecallWithVMEV3CPCAutoWithCassin iEmbRecallManual&_trksid=p2332490.c101875.m1851&itmprp=cksum%3A375339592687cbfa9d43b98d459e945b9cf b7c4e518f%7Cenc%3AAQAJAAABcLSVkHmTL63bebovD9RfpraP WbY9f4anjbziTIaEIOVXg2DWhVLks3Lfqff9vxxfjIh4XEXusI ehlT2iEH8%252BCxXNySMxlDIQJ3g86%252Bx3AAIAq9gznqdG SR72ksP41kjzPN1reUbVsJuld0S4i4qXlQfTmkMeIJTCXTM8mL pr7ju2fMvruDu87ZX%252B4bShOvD%252B4vUDwNt85foJWDYX g5nQKAcr%252BB0hkcL87wtPHc8u4GqaDtcE8BvrFR13VByEOD sExj8eIXedVII8Fn4dt%252BRuwUnFUUs80C%252Flum%252FK du4%252FZ89v38YMwVIvXLuSSRhzsCcOpdAJ2fBxZFV44fwlmi 544LcLXTWXvwMcxG3h8KLSEj0YkH5np3kDJQdMXvH%252FAx9B yLIM%252FmdEsTj5wF9L25OlX%252FxW8720Sj0OrTzzE90VVa %252BZKwgTdLmInRExZMESYX6AaNBiTrPoeONNA6oGHIy3Fh2L bwARTyt1sTnyBbb4QPzc%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2332 490&itmmeta=01HWNCTNB5BKQM6HDY5SQQ1XBY

[Richard Coers]

Incredibly wide mouth on those two planes. Many craftsman would want to add an inlay to bring those up to high quality.

[Luke Dupont]

Incredibly wide mouth on those two planes. Many craftsman would want to add an inlay to bring those up to high quality.

Looks to me like the blades are just backed out a few mm.

[Joshua Lucas]

And even if the mouth is as wide as it appears, these are double-iron planes so the mouth matters much less than it does with a single iron.

[Richard Coers]

Looks to me like the blades are just backed out a few mm.
How you tell they are backed out from that angle is beyond me. You really think he backed them out after showing the curls? The only showed a tapered curl, and one plane shows an angled iron. The mouth is big.

[Richard Coers]

And even if the mouth is as wide as it appears, these are double-iron planes so the mouth matters much less than it does with a single iron.
Whatever you want to justify is fine, I would have to do an inlay in my shop, or not buy them in the first place. If the supplier was as good as suggested, a wide mouth should be mentioned in the description. Not a great angle, but this is what they are supposed to look like.
519131

[Cameron Wood]

I have planes with very close mouths, but these are some that I use the most, for heavy, and medium utility cuts. IME, final, high level smoothing is only 10% of hand plane use.
They each took up to 2 hours to set up after I got them on Ebay some years ago. Currently they get a little attention when things get dry in the Summer here, and again in Winter when it is more humid.

519132519133

[Luke Dupont]

How you tell they are backed out from that angle is beyond me. You really think he backed them out after showing the curls? The only showed a tapered curl, and one plane shows an angled iron. The mouth is big.

Hmm, maybe you're right. Some photos make the mouth look fairly normal size. Others, it looks rather large. It's difficult to tell whether the iron is in a cutting position or not.

I do also find a small mouth to be helpful even if using the chipbreaker, especially with Japanese planes and the lower angle at which the bed is typically cut. So definitely something to be conscious of.

[Charles Edward]

The epitome of needless rabbit holes.

[Cameron Wood]

The epitome of needless rabbit holes.

I'm guessing that you mean that Japanese planes are more complex than western ones, and so not worth using. I'm curious if the comment is based on first hand knowledge or not.

[Charles Edward]

I'm guessing that you mean that Japanese planes are more complex than western ones, and so not worth using. I'm curious if the comment is based on first hand knowledge or not.

It's based on first-hand knowledge acquired by having gone down rabbit holes before and learning to recognize new ones before descending into them -- a skill I can recommend without reservation, but one apparently very scarce among people who frequent woodworking forums.

But, yes, for a brief moment in time in the 1980s I went briefly down that rabbit hole when Japan was foisting absolute junk on American woodworkers who really didn't know any better - you know, made by "Master Tsai" himself, or whoever, who has been 95 years old for the past twenty years. One could be barely conscious and still note these blokes have extraordinary longevity and productive lives well into their 130s... ;) P.T. Barnum would have approved.

Get some Stanley or Record planes of decent vintage, ones that show signs of use (they worked for somebody!), and get on with your woodworking.

[Luke Dupont]

It's based on first-hand knowledge acquired by having gone down rabbit holes before and learning to recognize new ones before descending into them -- a skill I can recommend without reservation, but one apparently very scarce among people who frequent woodworking forums.

But, yes, for a brief moment in time in the 1980s I went briefly down that rabbit hole when Japan was foisting absolute junk on American woodworkers who really didn't know any better - you know, made by "Master Tsai" himself, or whoever, who has been 95 years old for the past twenty years. One could be barely conscious and still note these blokes have extraordinary longevity and productive lives well into their 130s... ;) P.T. Barnum would have approved.

Get some Stanley or Record planes of decent vintage, ones that show signs of use (they worked for somebody!), and get on with your woodworking.

Wow, is that how they were marketing Japanese tools in the 80's? I think that was more Western marketing of anything Asian at the time. The same nonsense occurred with Martial Arts of all flavors. The key then as today is not to make sweeping generalizations, but to separate the wheat from the chaff. When it's easy to market subpar things to people who know no better, you can expect an abundance of supply. But if you're discerning, you will also find the gems among them.

After having moved to Japan, it feels like getting good Western planes was definitely an expensive rabbit hole. Just had to order them on ebay, pay over $100 in shipping, and pay up like 3-4 times what I used to for the planes back in the states years ago.

On the other hand, I can find quality, and very utilitarian Japanese planes locally, here in Japan. So they now make up the majority of what I use.

There's something to be said for keeping it simple and going for what's locally available. And I have to say that I do have a slight preference for Western tools. There's nothing magical or exotic about tools here, albeit there are some highly sought after smiths. But that isn't what most people use. Most Japanese tools are utilitarian, and quite nice to use if you work in a more Japanese manner sitting on the floor. They excel for that, and if you're not working on a bench, you'll find nothing better. But for standing upright and working, Western tools are mostly superior.

Most people woodwork for a hobby rather than as a job. If your goal is to work more efficiently and increase your skill in the craft, it makes sense to stick with what you know.

If you're just doing it for fun and enjoy exploring rabbit holes though, well... I don't suppose there's anything wrong with chasing rabbits down holes other than the immense cost that is generally associated with doing so! Whether it's worth it probably depends on your net worth more than anything... That said, I don't think that most people who work in an entirely Western manner will fully appreciate or get the benefit from Japanese tools. Most people going down rabbit holes just buy the toys but don't necessarily use them as intended, which can make the experience more lackluster overall.

[Charles Edward]

Wow, is that how they were marketing Japanese tools in the 80's? I think that was more Western marketing of anything Asian at the time. The same nonsense occurred with Martial Arts of all flavors. The key then as today is not to make sweeping generalizations, but to separate the wheat from the chaff. When it's easy to market subpar things to people who know no better, you can expect an abundance of supply. But if you're discerning, you will also find the gems among them.

After having moved to Japan, it feels like getting good Western planes was definitely an expensive rabbit hole. Just had to order them on ebay, pay over $100 in shipping, and pay up like 3-4 times what I used to for the planes back in the states years ago.

On the other hand, I can find quality, and very utilitarian Japanese planes locally, here in Japan. So they now make up the majority of what I use.

There's something to be said for keeping it simple and going for what's locally available. And I have to say that I do have a slight preference for Western tools. There's nothing magical or exotic about tools here, albeit there are some highly sought after smiths. But that isn't what most people use. Most Japanese tools are utilitarian, and quite nice to use if you work in a more Japanese manner sitting on the floor. They excel for that, and if you're not working on a bench, you'll find nothing better. But for standing upright and working, Western tools are mostly superior.

Most people woodwork for a hobby rather than as a job. If your goal is to work more efficiently and increase your skill in the craft, it makes sense to stick with what you know.

If you're just doing it for fun and enjoy exploring rabbit holes though, well... I don't suppose there's anything wrong with chasing rabbits down holes other than the immense cost that is generally associated with doing so! Whether it's worth it probably depends on your net worth more than anything... That said, I don't think that most people who work in an entirely Western manner will fully appreciate or get the benefit from Japanese tools. Most people going down rabbit holes just buy the toys but don't necessarily use them as intended, which can make the experience more lackluster overall.

Enjoy your woodworking.

[Cameron Wood]

The real deal at work. Plane at 3:15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZd8btDlO6A&t=233s

[Charles Edward]

The real deal at work. Plane at 3:15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZd8btDlO6A&t=233s

The real, real deal. Over four installments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bhu7HjIGAk&t=511s

[Rafael Herrera]

The real, real, real deal is the Chinese furniture that Chippendale's furniture was a rip off of.

520096

[stephen thomas]

Oh goody!
Planes and esoterica!

I used to work occasionally with some Korean carpenters so am sort of familiar with oriental saws.
The parents of a (paid) intern who worked for me summers all through architecture school brought me a plane from China during his first year.
They were certainly Chinese, but both were technical people (dad was an engineer), so i have no idea of the quality, nor if they did either. It was fun to use intermittently, but my experience is all western. & of course all my planes & especially specialty planes are too.

In western planes, you can either make the throat aperture the control for chip-breaking/anti-tearout. Or you can use the cap iron ("Chipbreaker"). It is not possible to optimize both at once. Most general woodworking planes end up being set with a compromise that makes it easy to use one plane for a bunch of tasks encompassing a range of chip thickness, but would not be optimal for finish smoothing difficult wood.
So i wonder if, other than esthetics, the (wide?) throats on the OP planes is a practical issue?

Why does one of the planes in the OP pair have the grain dead flat sawn, like say a western beech soled transitional; vs the other has nearly perfectly vertical grain?
Are the 2 planes, for 2 different purposes?

Someone mentioned bedding angle.
What is a typical range?
Is it different for softwood vs hardwood?

Luke - living in Japan, do you ever see anyone using a ("good") western plane? Any opinions by Japanese nationals who have experienced a "good" one?
They seem mostly pragmatic, less special or hidebound in approach than the dichotomy that seems to happen here so i wonder if they are open to trying such.

Japan started fairly early making quite good and well thought out heavy woodworking equipment, albeit of sizes that seem made for one large timber at a time. (IOW, instead of a 30" or 36" wide Buss, Whitney, or American type planer, the machines in that categroy seem fairly narrow in perspective, but will take much thicker timbers. Just as an example of casual notices. They still make machines sort of like old US cabinet scrapers with a single knife peeling a continuous strip shaving, but it is only about 12" wide on a skew, compared with the monster piano top cabinet scrapers of yore.

I love the single end tenoner in the background of the planing video!
Those guys are not afraid of machines.

smt

[Cameron Wood]

The real, real deal. Over four installments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bhu7HjIGAk&t=511s

Interesting, but I don't see the connection to Japanese planes.

[Cameron Wood]

Oh goody!
Planes and esoterica!

I used to work occasionally with some Korean carpenters so am sort of familiar with oriental saws.
The parents of a (paid) intern who worked for me summers all through architecture school brought me a plane from China during his first year.
They were certainly Chinese, but both were technical people (dad was an engineer), so i have no idea of the quality, nor if they did either. It was fun to use intermittently, but my experience is all western. & of course all my planes & especially specialty planes are too.

In western planes, you can either make the throat aperture the control for chip-breaking/anti-tearout. Or you can use the cap iron ("Chipbreaker"). It is not possible to optimize both at once. Most general woodworking planes end up being set with a compromise that makes it easy to use one plane for a bunch of tasks encompassing a range of chip thickness, but would not be optimal for finish smoothing difficult wood.
So i wonder if, other than esthetics, the (wide?) throats on the OP planes is a practical issue?

Why does one of the planes in the OP pair have the grain dead flat sawn, like say a western beech soled transitional; vs the other has nearly perfectly vertical grain?
Are the 2 planes, for 2 different purposes?

Someone mentioned bedding angle.
What is a typical range?
Is it different for softwood vs hardwood?

Luke - living in Japan, do you ever see anyone using a ("good") western plane? Any opinions by Japanese nationals who have experienced a "good" one?
They seem mostly pragmatic, less special or hidebound in approach than the dichotomy that seems to happen here so i wonder if they are open to trying such.

Japan started fairly early making quite good and well thought out heavy woodworking equipment, albeit of sizes that seem made for one large timber at a time. (IOW, instead of a 30" or 36" wide Buss, Whitney, or American type planer, the machines in that categroy seem fairly narrow in perspective, but will take much thicker timbers. Just as an example of casual notices. They still make machines sort of like old US cabinet scrapers with a single knife peeling a continuous strip shaving, but it is only about 12" wide on a skew, compared with the monster piano top cabinet scrapers of yore.

I love the single end tenoner in the background of the planing video!
Those guys are not afraid of machines.

smt


There are two approaches to the grain orientation: rift sawn, and flat sawn. The flat sawn I believe is more stable, or at least moves more uniformly, and the rift sawn wears better. The vertical grain one is uncommon. (according to my somewhat limited understanding)

The sole is scraped periodically to condition the sole, making the block thinner and the mouth wider, so well used planes will have a wider mouth and/or a piece fitted to make it narrower. Planes used for heavier cuts need a wider mouth so the more worn ones tend to get used that way.

Most Japanese woodwork is with softwoods, so the planes are mostly around 40˚. I have one designed for hardwoods with a steeper angle.

[stephen thomas]

Somebody on PM posted that this is the real, real, real, real, deal.
Or something like that. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpefYPLH67A&t=1s

(Turn on subtitles)

[Jim Koepke]

I used to work occasionally with some Korean carpenters so am sort of familiar with oriental saws.

My son is stationed in Korea. He sent me a new Japanese style plane last Christmas. It works well, but after using western planes for so many years it is easier to work with the ones that have worked for me for so long.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

It is. Good video. LOL

[stephen thomas]

It works well, but after using western planes for so many years it is easier to work with the ones that have worked for me for so long

Truth.

Not that i don't like to try other methods, i do.
But at this time of life i have to be careful which rabbit holes to get deeper into. No resistance to the ideas/knowledge/philosophy.
But AFA acquisition, my wife keeps reminding me we are trying to de-acquisition.
However, anything to do with planes is valuable for thinking about my own efforts.
Planes are simple, but not necessarily easy.

Don't worry about me, though.
I can always quit after just one more.

smt

[Kevin Jenness]

Somebody on PM posted that this is the real, real, real, real, deal.
Or something like that. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpefYPLH67A&t=1s

(Turn on subtitles)

Sawdust and guts! Gives "Chainsaw Massacre a whole new meaning.

[Cameron Wood]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcHYb3y1TsM

In this video, a guy who has won planing competitions says that the size of the mouth opening doesn't matter, but a small one looks cool.

[stephen thomas]

That is a cool video.
I really enjoyed it, and i'm a person who seldom sits through one.

Interesting that like in western cultures, often the guy who can explain it, including nuances, might not be the guy who uses one every day in trades.

I like how casual they are with the steel hammer - swat the chisel with it, even smack the side of the edge to bump it along a line.
I was relating to a lot of his work.

Maybe especially the part where he scrapes the iron bedding surface. Just like scraping the CI (frog) of a western plane.
Or the wooden bed in an infill plane! I have some specialty tools for that. One difference being that in the west, we reference flat. Then any flat iron can be used instead.
The Japanese planes are clearly a one-iron-only tool, and would need completely re-scraped to fit a different one. I sort of presume the plane body would be worn out before the blade?
Where as some of us have planes where we wore out new irons over a working life.

Keeping vibration to a minimum is a big factor when you go for nil tearout (& gossamer shavings) Japanese irons attain this with the wood damping and thick iron, which is laminated with wrought iron (like old western plane irons, chisels, and slicks). I have an impression that a short iron vibrates less as well. This may be significant. Many western planes have (scrape fitted) wooden bedding, and have a means to clamp a moderately thin iron, or iron + cap iron combination with enough force to behave as though it were a much thicker blade. But almost all western irons are relatively long. In fact the proportion of useful cutting edge to the rest of the shank of the iron is probably only about 1:5 or 1:6 in a new iron. Lots of shank out there to resonate. Even with good clamping systems.

Do actual carpenters use the 6" wide planes, or is it primarily a competition thing?
Is a metal body plane allowed? :)

smt