A Personal Question? How much do you charge?

[Dev Emch]

I would like to ask the other pros a personal question if I dare. I apologize as this may be personal or propriatary information. But I am courious what other pro shops charge per hour for doing cabinetwork and fine woodworking? I would like to know if I am charging to much or worse yet, not enough.:D

Thanks
Regards

[Chris Rosenberger]

Are you going to tell us how much you charge first?
It does not seem right that we should tell you & you not tell us.

[Joe Unni]

Dev,

A fair question...

Materials + 15%
Hourly rate $40. (more typically $320. per day)
Once total time is figured
Add new materials number to total time + 15%

Example:
$1000 materials
+ 15% (covers any goofs or extra materials needed)
$1150.
+$620. (2 days)
$2920.
+ 15% (covers overhead)
$3358. job cost

I get 50% up front (securing a spot in the schedule) and the balance upon delivery.

This has worked very well for me.

I hope you find this helpful.

-joe

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Dev,

I usually marked up materials 25%, sometimes much more. For materials I have gotten at rediculously low prices, that 25% is figured off of current stock prices.

I bid based on $65/hr labor. Sometimes a job figured out lower once drawing and meeting time was factored in. Sometimes it worked out higher. Never below $40/hr.

This was for freestanding furniture. Never tried built-ins. You would need to factor in differences in regions into your equations. The hourly I used was based upon deciding how much I wanted to make and working in COG and taxes, typical overhead and taxes.

Now I am making tools. Don't ask how low the hourly works out to <G>...

Take care, Mike

[Chris Dodge]

Joe, I use the exact same formula for cabinet work. However, I charge $60-75/hour for furniture. It almost always requires much more detail work and more careful finishing.

[Tyler Howell]

$100.00/per hour port to port............But never for WW Some other stuff I do:rolleyes:.....And they pay me:D . Parts/materials are retail customer will often get them.
For :o WW I have to pay them.

[Steve Clardy]

I really don't have a per hour rate on cabinets, or per foot.
Most of my cab jobs work out at around materials times 5.
Staircases, I just bid the jobs high enough to cover my time and material.

[Andy Hoyt]

Surprised no one has mentioned the location factor.

Work done in Palo Alto, CA or Bedford, NY might cost about the same.

But that same work in Benton Falls, ME or Charlo, MT will cost a considerably different amount.

This holds true for materials, labor, and overhead.

And this makes the figures Dev is looking for somewhat misleading.

[Michael Ballent]

I would also mention that it could also depend on which side of the tracks the client is on ;) My parents constantly get much higher quotes for work done at their house because they live on the ritzy side of town. :rolleyes:


Surprised no one has mentioned the location factor.

Work done in Palo Alto, CA or Bedford, NY might cost about the same.

But that same work in Benton Falls, ME or Charlo, MT will cost a considerably different amount.

This holds true for materials, labor, and overhead.

And this makes the figures Dev is looking for somewhat misleading.

[Per Swenson]

Hello all,

It all depends on the customer.

I shoot for the , "if you have to ask" type.

Thankfully, I live in one of those locations.

Then there is the price for the repeat, the builder, or neighborly type.

Of course there is the high profile client where getting your stuff

visible is worth giving it away.

Also, I always check a customers shoes and car tires. :D

Per

Per

[Richard Wolf]

This is difficult but here goes. When installing railings, I always supplies the materials. The price for the job is 3 to 4 times the cost of the materials.
How does this work out; My son and I can install between $500 to $1000 in rail parts in a day. This bills out to $1500 to $3500 a day. $1500 is a pretty easy day, 4 hours at the job site. $3500 is difficult and would take a hard 8 hours at the job site.
Like Andy said, operating a business on Long Island, NY can be very expensive. I have alot of overhead an cost of living is very high.

Richard

[Dan Oliphant]

As others have mentioned location is a factor. Here in the northern high desert, the client base is typically middle class to upper middle class. So high cost free standing furniture is the exception.
With that said, my labor fee is $35/hr, no shop lease or rent to consider, materials are calculated to retail plus 20% handling. (I do not pay retail) When estimating the lumber, an additional 10% loss is included.
The time to generate an estimate and design the unit are not included in the overall cost. I realize a lot of folks charge for these items, but the client base here will typically not support that pricing.

[Walt Pater]

Let's not forget your local State Board of Workman's Compensation. They have their hooks on my payroll to the tune of 18.58 cents on the dollar-- cheap, compared to what roofers and siders get hit for.

[Jack Hogoboom]

Hey Per,

Do I get a discount if I have old shoes? I also wear sweats with holes in them. Drives my wife crazy, which is why I do it....:D

I need a desk for my office....

Jack

[Rob Will]

I would like to know if I am charging to much or worse yet, not enough.

We have seen your toys. Nobody can charge that much.

Rob

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

I don't do much for pay, most of my work is done for my family, or my L shop, but I do get the occasional "Job".

I'm no Pro, and that is for sure.

I charge 5 times the material costs.

Sounds like a lot, but it is not. Remember, I'm in Tokyo Japan, if I take on a job, I'm going to have to sneak it into my days, less time with the kids, less sleep and all of that, so if you want me to work on it, it has to be worth it for me.

I recently made a display case for one of my wife's friends, they have a little clothing store, a boutique, the two sisters run the place, I don't think they make their rent each month, but they own the building, and both of their husbands make LOTS of money, and as one of the guys explained it to me, "Even if they lose a bit of money, it is much cheaper to have them there instead of out bruising my credit card shopping".

So, I made this case, sheet goods, solid wood edges, one piece of glass, some hardware.

Total cost of materials and goods was near $380 (the tempered glass was expensive here!!) so I charged them just under $2000 for the case. I was a bit worried that it was too expensive, but I gave them an estimate before I started, and I came in slightly under the estimate. They were VERY pleased, they told me they looked at ones in places that sell this stuff, and the cheapest ones where at least another $500 and were not custom made to fit the space they wanted it to fit.

I should go into display case business :eek: !

I guess it really depends on what your area will pay.

Cheers!

[Dev Emch]

My toys! You should see what some of the farmers are playing with. Some of the John Deere makes my shop look like chopped liver.:D

I like the idea of attaching a 15 to 20 percent charge on raw materials. Often I have to drive two to three hours one way to pick up lumber and baltic birch. Then I have to unload and warehouse this stuff. I was not charging for this.

In terms of charging. In the past I have only charged for shop time and avoided all other time. Of course on site installation is half of shop time. But my shop time is listed at $60 dollars per hour. Some folks think its a deal and some think I am crazy. But I show them my machines and present them with the fact that I am the only one or one of the exteme few with this type of equipment. Any comment like ... well I can get this at pottery barn for $500 dollars. How much would it cost you to duplicate this item?.... politely gets them the door and the boot in the rear. I tell them 2.5 times the price at pottery barn. So far I have not had to duplicate anything. Also, comparing me with home depot will not make you any good points either.

I was just wondering what the overall picture looks like. And your right, living in a resortish like, small town makes everything more expenive. And of course, there are the government monkies of various colors who always have their hands in your trouser pockets. Talk about an irritant! Good think I dont do roofs!

[Alan Turner]

Dev,
My shop rate is $65/hr., and I don't step on the materials, although I don't account to the client for any leftovers either. If I have the materials, I charge retail for them, but I did not pay that for them. They were either leftovers, or I bought them right.

I prepare an in-house estimate of time and materials, add about 20% for overhead, rent, elec., etc. and come up with a fixed price. I estimate the time based upon what I think it should take, not what it actually takes. If I get the job, I then play beat the clock (i.e., beat my time estimate). I rarely win this game, but think that this is still a fair way to do it. Rarely do I do a straight t&m job, but on restoration work I have to since you can't know what kind of a ride you will have till you open her up. I won't let a job out of the shop if I am not satisfied that it is my best work. I would rather eat the time and get it right than put out a piece of work that reflects poorly on my reputation. Hard to earn a reputation; easy thing to loose.

I sometimes charge for drawings if they are an important part of the job, such as getting a bank to approve the expenditure, or the client is unsure of what they want. The cost is credited if the job is secured. Some jobs take several days to grab field measurements, design, and draw. This is not free time to me.

[Gail O'Rourke]

Interesting answers...I know I am on the low side. Last year I shot for $35, this year I am billing out at $50 plus materials which always ride the high side on. I always charge extra for installations and delivery and always include on the estimate what's not inlcuded (hardware etc.).

[tod evans]

i charge by the lineal inch on the usable portion of radiused moulding and sell strictly wholesale so i won`t price that on the forum. but odd ball millwork and furniture bills at 30 bucks an hour and material gets jacked 20% which generally leaves me selling the material slightly cheaper than the local yards.....02 tod

[Marcus Ward]

Woodworking, like photography, suffers from the interesting phenomena that if you price yourself too low, nobody wants you. In fact, the more money you charge, the more in demand you become. I think there is a perception of value in having a high priced contractor, especially in today's society that is obsessed with outdoing the joneses.

Dev, you actually make stuff with those machines? I've never seen one post from you that shows off a peice you've built.

[Tom Jones III]

Interestingly enough, as a hobbyist, I am doing a kitchen hutch similar to a Thomas Moser piece. There is nothing really new to me in this hutch except the store bought drawer runners, so I am not spending much time on this project learning new techniques. If I apply the $65 per hour and materials + 15%, then I come out just a little cheaper than what Moser wants for his. Now, if I could just build as well as Moser does ....

[Mark Singer]

It seems in Southern California....prices are a bit higher based on what my architectural clients pay for custom cabinets and hand made furniture...If they are working with an interior dsigner the furniture gets marked up even more. I know what some of the shops charge and the quality and price are not always in sync. I know a woodworker that does great work and is much less expensive than other shops...
The few pieces I have made for clients are based on hours and then I always try to find someting close to what I am making in a gallery...just to compare.

If the work is designed in a unique way it becomes art and its value increases...it becomes dificult to compare and people will pay the price and wait in a long line to get it... At $20,000 a rocker , Maloof has an endless list of buyers. Its the real thing...its unique ...and it has real value..
It is worth the time to design your work to be distinctive ....then you are no longer compared based on price....you can't be compared...you are you!
This has notion has helped me in my Architctural practice....I have not designed everybodys home.....the ones I have done are not for everyone...they are custom and do not apeal to everyones tastes...but, when they want one, they are willing to pay for the design and the construction and they are not interested in cheaper versions or substitutes.
Try to do the best work you can and make it "yours" distinctive and eveything else will follow including the $$$$

[tod evans]

i have a question for you guys who are billing in excess of 50 bucks per hour..at the end of the week do you really see that money? for only a 40 hr week that`s 100k per year! honestly i`ve known guys who own large shops with lots of employees who don`t really make that kind of money when all the cards are on the table. yeah it might make you feel good to post those prices by the register but in reality what`s really going on? i have a pretty well equiped shop and lotsa years under my belt building furniture so i really don`t think i`m a slacker in the production department and the market in my area will not support those wages. i`d be spending more than half my time looking for clients instead of working and i seriously doubt i`d have return clientele if i billed at that rate. let`s face it there are not countless sam maloofs on this forum, most of us are working stiffs, retirees,or weekend warriors so try to be honest with yourself as well as the folks here.......i was......02 tod

[Jim Hager]

I'm so glad this all came up and let me glance at what some of the rest of you are doing. Kinda give me a little chance to do a check up on my business practices. I'm in N.E. Arkansas and the economy is not what it could be around here so my rates are not as tasty as some of you report. My shop rate is $35 per hour, I try to keep this figure in mind anytime I plan out and bid on a project. I can beat that a little bit on RP door construction and kitchen components. I price my materials some differently than some of the rest of you by adding 40% to my wholesale price. !0% of that accounts for my waste, and I squeeze every single board foot out of what I can. I also do quite a good bit of retail hardware, especially drawer glides and sockets and hinges and I can usually double my wholesale price on that kind of stuff because I buy in bulk boxes. Knobs and handles usually fetch me around 40% above wholesale.

This is a very interesting topic and I hope more will share what they are doing.

[Dave Avery]

Always an interesting discussion......

I've said before, and I guess I'm saying again, that price has nothing to do with cost. Price is simply what someone is willing to pay. That can be cost -50%, cost +100%, or any other number. Cost is a means to estimate what someone might be willing to pay, but strictly using a cost+ formula guarantees that you're leaving money on the table - particularly if you're building customized furniture. The closer you are to building a commodity, the more a cost+ formula makes sense.

Differentiating your product, either by product attributes (hard), or your reputation as a craftsman (relatively easier), allows a higher price. It's about finding a niche that you do better than anyone else - and one that people are willing to pay for. The more that product satisfies a "want" rather than a "need", the more likely that you'll be able to charge a higher price (and the more likely that customers will be fewer and farther between). Example in this post abound...... Building basic kitchen cabinets will allow you to make a living, and you'll have steady work, but you're never going to be wealthy. More customized applicatons like stair work, particularly high end, are more likely to yield higher margins and customers - particularly early on - will be harder to find.

All the best. Dave.

[Jim Hager]

i have a question for you guys who are billing in excess of 50 bucks per hour..at the end of the week do you really see that money? for only a 40 hr week that`s 100k per year! honestly i`ve known guys who own large shops with lots of employees who don`t really make that kind of money when all the cards are on the table. yeah it might make you feel good to post those prices by the register but in reality what`s really going on? i have a pretty well equiped shop and lotsa years under my belt building furniture so i really don`t think i`m a slacker in the production department and the market in my area will not support those wages. i`d be spending more than half my time looking for clients instead of working and i seriously doubt i`d have return clientele if i billed at that rate. let`s face it there are not countless sam maloofs on this forum, most of us are working stiffs, retirees,or weekend warriors so try to be honest with yourself as well as the folks here.......i was......02 tod

YUP!! I gotta agree with you there Tod. We are in kind of the same part of the world and there is no way that those kinds of wages can be made here. My prices are gonna be the most that the market will bear around here. There are too many people in our part of the world out there working for too cheap and driving the prices down. :mad: Sometimes their quality suffers for that as well and the customer is not getting their fair share of the product.

Now I'm not the best out there for sure but here in my town I have a pretty good reputation for quality and fair price. That being said you still have to cover your costs and those blades and shaper cutters don't come cheap.

[Mark Singer]

I agree with Dave....although high quality cabinet work is bring huge prices in this area...it is really supply and demand...there are tons of people with high end homes being built..

If you don't take te effort to make your work special then you are going to be compared to "Room and Board" , "Ethan Allen" and even Ikea... It is too easy for someone to go out and buy average looking stuff at cheap prices ...that will always be a difficult arena to play in.

[Jim Becker]

Tod, you raise an interesting point. $100K is not the "same wage" in every locality. Some of the folks responding to this thread live and work in areas that $100K in actual wages barely lets you eat and sleep with "moderate" comfort. In some other areas, that puts you in the top 1% of everyone in the area, no matter what they do for a living. And as you point out, there are innumerable things that chip away at that number, too...so it may not be "actual wages", just revenue still bound by additional overhead. Where I live, I'd have to win the lottery before I could commit to being a "pro" woodworker/cabinetmaker...and have a lot more time to learn how to do acceptable work! (Prize Patrol...where are you?? :( )

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Tod.........We could get into a very interesting conversation about localized economies. You only have to compare prices on similar houses in two different distinctive markets to realize the effect localized economies. Take California for example. I had a co-worker from San Francisco here in Lewiston 20+ years ago. My wife and I invited her over for dinner. She asked what we paid for our home in 1982 and we told her $49K. This conversation took place in 1984 or 1985. She was stunned! She indicated the same house in her neighborhood would have cost $125K. In major metropolitan areas, the cost of living is traditionally higher.........traditionally..not always.

For the first 2 years after moving here from Chicago in 1982, we watched every penny we spent just to see how the cost of living compared. The end result .........it was a wash.....Housing at the time was about 18% cheaper.....Gasoline here was then and still is 6-8 cents a gallon higher...Makes a big difference when the closest "big" town is 110 miles away and the alternatives are 250-330! .....taxes.....I forget exactly how it shook out but property taxes were higher one place and income taxes were higher at the other. Food was much higher here. Utilities were a wash.....In short, it cost just as much to live here as it did in Chicago.

And yet, if my employer wanted me to move to California or Alaska, they'd have to come up with some real salary incentatives!

[John Lucas]

Years ago, I was called into an office of an old friend whose boss was in need of slides for a business presentation. Boss was actually the founder and president and he had his slide needs on the front and back of a cocktail napkin. The business was a very high priced software package for banking back room operations (currency evaluation by the second). I didnt know didly about the area but I knew how to ask questions. And after an hour with the pres (who was leaving in day a half to Hong Kong and TOkyo, I found out that he was making presentations to key banking groups over there wanting to come back with $25million seed money for next generation of software. The sldies I was to make were for that. I asked to see his proposal to these people - none. I asked to see him business plan that spelled out the time line - none. SO I spend 2 hours asking more questions and went back to office to develop business plan, proposal - no slides (which I had been called in for,.) I worked 27 hours straight and hand delivered duplicated sets to him at airport at 8 am on SUnday in ice storm.
When I put together the bill, I realized that we had never mentioned what this would cost. So I put together invoice prepared to do battle. $3,000. (1982 dollars)
A week later, I got call from the person who had brought me in in the first place and I thought for sure he was going to quiblle on invoice. I was going to hold my ground. He mumbled on and on and finally said that E. had made his presentations and gotten commitment of $32million. I heard this and could only say to myself (WOW!!!) and then he (treasurer) said "E and I have a problem with your invoice of $3000. And I slowly started to put words together for a response, when he continued "we have upped that to $10,000 and feel that that is proably low, considering the outcome. That was a wow!!! but I also had a new client and a couple of years of computer based promotion programs.
My point is, that we work too hard on the pricing based on materials and hourly wages. "What the market will bear (or bare)" is very important to keep in mind. Yes, most of what I did had to be priced on hourly basis. Video production is a very competitive area (particularly when all the wedding video folks start bidding against you).
But "what am I worth?" is an important question to ask. It is not about what machines I have and how no one else has this array of big machines. "What am I worth?"

[Dave Tinley]

I am down here in central Texas with a large amount of middle class with some high class wantabe's. :p
I am also just a part timer for now but hope to change that by the end of the year. Right now I bid a job using a $35 per hr rate and 20 % mark up on retail for materials. Since I buy alot of rough lumber and sheet goods at wholesale prices I make alittle profit there, which covers the $ per hr. Cause I just cant beat the time I estimate.
If I lived farther north towards Dallas/ Ft Worth I would definitly have a higher shop rate.

Dave

[Alan Mikkelsen]

Surprised no one has mentioned the location factor.

Work done in Palo Alto, CA or Bedford, NY might cost about the same.

But that same work in Benton Falls, ME or Charlo, MT will cost a considerably different amount.

This holds true for materials, labor, and overhead.

And this makes the figures Dev is looking for somewhat misleading.

Whoa! How the heck do you know about Charlo, MT???? That's just next to my small town (St. Ignatius)! :D :D

[Dave Falkenstein]

I consider myself a "part-time pro" at woodworking, since I do a fair number of projects for a fee. I am retired, but do not want to give the impression that I am willing to give away my time and effort. My work includes cabinetry (both building and installing), repairs of various kinds and decks. I find I cannot get enough for my time making custom furniture - I guess I'm too slow at it. I typically charge whatever I pay for materials and $40 per hour for labor, which includes overhead time like shopping time to buy the materials. On a few jobs I will quote a flat price and I find my time typically works out to $35 to $70 per hour on those jobs, depending on the size and complexity. I prefer to work on an hourly basis, and try hard to be fair with my clients.

[David Pettibone]

Even though I only do laminate countertops for a living, I do a few things different than most guys in my area.

In the beginning, it was approximately $30 a linear foot for tops, depending on how many feet. I add up all the inches, divide by 12 and multiply by 30. Tear-out of old tops and sink removal are different rates. Then I went to saying that I don't price by the linear foot, I price by the job. Most customers want to compare what the other guy charges and then say he's cheaper than you. I got 3 estimates and this guy beat you by $125, can you come down. My answer is always a kind "no I can't do that". I'm not high, he's low. My price is fair for the work that I am doing for you based off my materials, time, and yes, quality of work. You won't get burned edges and radius corners you can push in and out with your thumb.

I have too LARGE albums with pictures of many, many jobs I have done and that alone helps tremendously.

When people ask, what do you mean price by the job, I say that I figure out my materials, based off the kitchen measurements, and come up with a fair figure for them and for me based off my time and materials.

Example: I qouted a job $1900 a year and half ago. Two other companies were within $150 of my bid. The gentleman called me a couple days later and said someone underbid you by $700!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I told him a builder would not get it that cheap from me and there is no way I could do anything with that price.
Well, the company in question took my samples that I had left with the homeowner to look over for a few days(obviously, they qouted after my qoute). I said, no problem, I'll pick them up after they're done with the job, if you don't mind. He was so happy that I was willing to come look at their work after I didn't get the job, I thought he was going to come through the phone and hug me!!! Well..........3 days after the top was complete, I go to look at their work. I told him I would be honest and that I get no satisfaction from putting down anyone else's work. If it's good, I'll tell ya.
Well the seam at the sink was open enough that I could almost put a dime in it. They used white caulk on a brownish colored top. The edges of the laminate were burned on almost every linear foot of countertop in the kithen. The radius corners flexed in and out. Here's the kicker. They routed all the laminate off with a straight bit and I swear they didn't file any of it. You could take your finger nails and slightly lift up the edges any where you tried. That part, I didn't have the heart to say anything about to the homeowner. The burned edges (which they asked "what is that"), the open seam and the caulk I did tell them about.

This thread was about how much guys charge for their work, and Dev, I hope I have not gone off topic too much. Although I would never ever mention another company by name to any customer, I do tell a quick version of this situation, one of many, I have had in the past. I only do this with a few certain customers who start asking about price a lot or quality of work compared to others. I also tell them there are many good fabricators out there, but there are some bad ones too. Don't just go by price for foot. Decide if you feel comfortable with me and what I've said and showed you during my estimate.

The gentleman with the $700 difference said "how can he be so much lower?". I said there's a reason for it, I can tell you that. I also said, if he was that good why wouldn't his qoutes be more in line with every else's. Doesn't he want to make $700 more? The company in question doesn't have to worry about referrals, they will always get phone calls from people who don't know their work and then they will get a lot of those jobs because a certain percentage of people are always looking for the lowest price.

Price by the job (if you can) and don't be shy about your work. Pictures help alot and so do referrals (the most powerful business tool you have). I almost forgot. I was told recently that the company in question closed down and opened up under another:eek: name. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:rolleyes:

Thanks for reading and God Bless you if you made it this far!:)

David

[Rob Millard]

I like to make $ 850-1000 a week, but I don't always get to that level. I figure it comes out to about $20.00 per hour. I live in an area where the cost of living is low. I read a lot about what others make, and I'm a little shocked at the high prices they get. Of course depending on where you live you may have to make that much, but it sure puts them at a disadvantage to me ( maybe that's why I have a 14 month waiting list).
I have a customer in NJ, who pays more in car insurance a year than my car cost! He told me about going into New York for a show and paying $65.00 to park. I recently paid $5.00 to park in downtown Dayton, Ohio and nearly cried. If I lived in a high cost area, woodworking wouldn't be a viable way to make a living.
Rob Millard

[Bob Oehler]

This is a little off but still applies to pricing woodworking
I Repair and Restore Watches. Mostly antique pocket watches and High End wristwatches.

My inital pricing rule is price so
1. That about 25% of the quotes are rejected. This gets rid of the people who will drive you nuts. Those are Tupers (see end for a deffinition)
2. The more expensive/rare the watch the higher the over all cost. Like was said in a earlier post Look at the tires and shoes also look at the watches.;)
3. On things that may have hidden problems state that when you estimate. Always use the word estimate when it's in this kind of situtation. Also quote high. What ever I see wrong or think may be worng I price out then double that number. This has worked out so far. Also work it so if you find somthing real deep and bad you notify them of a higher price or a no repair and put it back to gether and eat what is already done.
4. I charge 50/hour when figuring my estimates. and eat if a job takes a little longer. If they ask how that figure come about I say how much did it cost per hour at the car repair place last time ???? If there is a lot of unseen things see #3.


Take care
Bob Oehler

PS here is the Tuper deffinition
There are 2 percent of the population you do not want to do business with.

[Dev Emch]

Woodworking, like photography, suffers from the interesting phenomena that if you price yourself too low, nobody wants you. In fact, the more money you charge, the more in demand you become. I think there is a perception of value in having a high priced contractor, especially in today's society that is obsessed with outdoing the joneses.

Dev, you actually make stuff with those machines? I've never seen one post from you that shows off a peice you've built.

Sure do.:D And if you come during the summer, you can also get a tool around town in a 1917 Stanley Steamer turing car. At least assuming that they got the cylinder fixed. Last summer, they were hauling a bunch of tourists up a hill and put the pedal to the metal or should I say, opened up the steam valve a bit too much and blew a crack in one of the cylinders. A guy in PA is recasting and remachining the cylinder. Should be done now but its winter and the season starts in may.

As to photos. Yes, my current job was virtually a give away. I took this job with the caveat that I can get some work into a prominent place and be able to photograph to my hearts content. So photos, expensive ones at that, are on the way.:D I am also working with a designer to put together a website. I have been lacking in this department for a while. Another OWWMer, Thom Houser, has an awsome website and I am borrowing ideas from him in this regard.

[Dev Emch]

i have a question for you guys who are billing in excess of 50 bucks per hour..at the end of the week do you really see that money? for only a 40 hr week that`s 100k per year! honestly i`ve known guys who own large shops with lots of employees who don`t really make that kind of money when all the cards are on the table. yeah it might make you feel good to post those prices by the register but in reality what`s really going on? i have a pretty well equiped shop and lotsa years under my belt building furniture so i really don`t think i`m a slacker in the production department and the market in my area will not support those wages. i`d be spending more than half my time looking for clients instead of working and i seriously doubt i`d have return clientele if i billed at that rate. let`s face it there are not countless sam maloofs on this forum, most of us are working stiffs, retirees,or weekend warriors so try to be honest with yourself as well as the folks here.......i was......02 tod

You have brought up an excellent point. First of all, I am willing to bet that the red face factor often under shoots the time bid. So you may charge less but your time investment is more accurate. We may charge more but we have undershoot the time bid to get the job in the first place. I know I have done this before. Secondly, hunting down clients is serious business. As Per said, check out the shoes and the tires. I also check out the ride. If they are driving a relatively new econo box, you may be in trouble. BMWs are the best. Mercedes are price hagglers. Chevy and Ford CAR owners are window shoppers. Diesel Pickup onwers are weekend warriers who often own a half decent hobby shop themselves. They are mining for info and ideas and may be wishing to the occasional project. Forgive me for saying this, SMC members are the worst customers of all. Ninty percent of you guys can do this work without any help.

But good BMW customers are not that hard to find. They often hang out in groups and those are the areas you need to go hunting in. Doctors, Lawyers, Businessmen, etc. They are demanding and often have their own set of rules and dos and donts. But they write nice large and non-plastic checks so swallow your pride and accept the rules. The downside is if you bogger up. That is a call back and rework issue. And these are comming out of your pocket book. SO DONT GET INTO THAT SITUATION!

Lastly, my Dad was a business consultant. He explained that half your working time is doing the job. The other half is hunting for the next job. The problem is charging enough for the current job to cover the time for hunting the next job. My biggest issue here is when there are female types in the house. Often when your trying to close the next job they are hen picking you to do something around the house, etc. Your not on a current job, thus, you must be available. Geezzzz!

[Dan Oliphant]

OK Dev, you have received quite a few responses from us, now, how does this info compare with what YOU CHARGE, AND HOW YOU ESTIMATE A JOB!!!!!:D :D
To this point in the thread I have noticed the info is only going one way.:D :D

[John Scane]

It seems in Southern California....prices are a bit higher based on what my architectural clients pay for custom cabinets and hand made furniture...If they are working with an interior dsigner the furniture gets marked up even more. I know what some of the shops charge and the quality and price are not always in sync. I know a woodworker that does great work and is much less expensive than other shops...
The few pieces I have made for clients are based on hours and then I always try to find someting close to what I am making in a gallery...just to compare.

If the work is designed in a unique way it becomes art and its value increases...it becomes dificult to compare and people will pay the price and wait in a long line to get it... At $20,000 a rocker , Maloof has an endless list of buyers. Its the real thing...its unique ...and it has real value..
It is worth the time to design your work to be distinctive ....then you are no longer compared based on price....you can't be compared...you are you!
This has notion has helped me in my Architctural practice....I have not designed everybodys home.....the ones I have done are not for everyone...they are custom and do not apeal to everyones tastes...but, when they want one, they are willing to pay for the design and the construction and they are not interested in cheaper versions or substitutes.
Try to do the best work you can and make it "yours" distinctive and eveything else will follow including the $$$$

Well said Mark.

To add to that, sometimes a piece made as art might take you 200
+ hours, If it were a table or something small even at $40 and hour that works out to $8000. You might not be able to charge that much for what it is......So depending on what it is you might have to make less on a certain item and make more on one that takes less time. If your making art you have to price it according to your market as an artist.
I never make as much per hour making furniture as I do making a painting.

[Michael Gibbons]

Gee, Am I glad that this is a hobby, not my profession. I suppose if I were to make a couple peices and took them to a craft show or something and sold them for a few bucks that would be O.K. with me. I read somewhere that people think nothing of plopping 65k for a Lexus which will eventually wear out but won't buy an excellent piece of furniture for maybe $3000 which will, with minimum care, last 100 years or more. Those same people will buy an antique shaker chest of drawers for $100,000 and not blink an eye. Both pieces are made using the same materials and techniques but the new furniture gets the brush off? WHY?

[Shelley Bolster]

I also check out the ride. If they are driving a relatively new econo box, you may be in trouble. BMWs are the best. Mercedes are price hagglers. Chevy and Ford CAR owners are window shoppers. Diesel Pickup onwers are weekend warriers who often own a half decent hobby shop themselves.

Hey Dev, I hate to tell you this, but you might be showing your age a tad with an example such as you used above. Times- they have changed from when you drove what you could afford. The guy with the econo box or Chevy car might just have paid cash for their vehicles......the guy driving the Mercedes .......could very well have over-extended himself and has 1001 Ways How to Cook Hamburger open on his counter-top. Just take a look at some of the pretty high priced vehicles parked outside Walmart. :cool:
Is it just me, but I find it is really puzzling as to why two of the lowest per hour rate guys are also, IMO, two of the very best woodworkers/craftsmen here. Man - am I in good company or what because I don't charge anywhere near what some of you are. I have a decent shop......with a couple of good tools.....nothing spectacular but certainly workable. I have been doing this for enough years as to have a pretty good idea with several different aspects of good craftsmanship but no way could I justify charging anywhere near $50 or $60 an hour. Granted - local does play a big part - no argument there but come on.......there are alot of hobbiest just learning the business themselves and they are actually charging and getting :cool: that? I am going back to make my peanuts for the day and pout!!:rolleyes:

[Dave Avery]

...
My point is, that we work too hard on the pricing based on materials and hourly wages. "What the market will bear (or bare)" is very important to keep in mind. ... But "what am I worth?" is an important question to ask. It is not about what machines I have and how no one else has this array of big machines. "What am I worth?"


Well said, John.... better than my attempt .... Said a little bit differently, and this applies to Shelley's concerns expressed above, the best woodworker does not make the most money. The competent woodworker who knows the value of his work makes the most money.

[Dave Falkenstein]

OK Dev, you have received quite a few responses from us, now, how does this info compare with what YOU CHARGE, AND HOW YOU ESTIMATE A JOB!!!!!:D :D
To this point in the thread I have noticed the info is only going one way.:D :D

Dan - Dev did post what he charges - please see post #17 in this thread.

[Dan Oliphant]

Dave, thanks, I missed that.

[Walt Pater]

[QUOTE=tod evans]..at the end of the week do you really see that money?

No. I don't, and couldn't, bill out at $50/hr, but last week was pretty good. Watch me cry as I type this.

Incoming:
$2035.00- Current job
$500.00- Materials Deposit for another job
$650.00- Couple days' at another job- finally paid.
Equals $3185.
Minus
($400.00) payout to helper
($100.00) -first invoice above forgot trans. reimbursement
($237.00)-second invoice's job's materials were higher than
estimated
($605.00)-truck insurance payment
($1405.00)- get truck fixed and get new tires
($316.00)- DAYCARE
Equals ($3063)

What's left, $122? YIPPEEE!!!!! I'M BUYING!!!!!!!!!

Now, I'll get some of that back, and my truck (paid for, '01 GMC) rarely needs that kind of work, but it gives you an idea of a week in the life of a hard-workin' finish carpenter.

[Dev Emch]

OK Dev, you have received quite a few responses from us, now, how does this info compare with what YOU CHARGE, AND HOW YOU ESTIMATE A JOB!!!!!:D :D
To this point in the thread I have noticed the info is only going one way.:D :D

Check out the post right above yours.:D I think we had posts flying in space at the same time.

[Dev Emch]

Hey Dev, I hate to tell you this, but you might be showing your age a tad with an example such as you used above. Times- they have changed from when you drove what you could afford. The guy with the econo box or Chevy car might just have paid cash for their vehicles......the guy driving the Mercedes .......could very well have over-extended himself and has 1001 Ways How to Cook Hamburger open on his counter-top. Just take a look at some of the pretty high priced vehicles parked outside Walmart. :cool:
Is it just me, but I find it is really puzzling as to why two of the lowest per hour rate guys are also, IMO, two of the very best woodworkers/craftsmen here. Man - am I in good company or what because I don't charge anywhere near what some of you are. I have a decent shop......with a couple of good tools.....nothing spectacular but certainly workable. I have been doing this for enough years as to have a pretty good idea with several different aspects of good craftsmanship but no way could I justify charging anywhere near $50 or $60 an hour. Granted - local does play a big part - no argument there but come on.......there are alot of hobbiest just learning the business themselves and they are actually charging and getting :cool: that? I am going back to make my peanuts for the day and pout!!:rolleyes:

You are absolutely right. I know one guy who wears old blue jeans, a dirty CAT hat, has white hair and over 250,000 miles on his pick up truck. He also duct taped a pair of shoes back together and heats his home with two 100 year old massive pot belly stoves. He also graduated in civil engineering with a 3.95 GPA and worked in a few real estate projects. We stopped wondering about his net worth after it past 5 million. Indeed the guy with the benz is always two payments in front of the repo man. Your right about that.

The reason I asked this question is simple. First, I find that preparing estimates for unkown territory akin to asking how long is a piece of string? Its hard! Unless you have done project X three or four times in the past, you dont have an accurate bearing. I guess writing everything down on 3x5 cards and filing them helps on future jobs. That is what chris Becksvort does. Every job has its own 3x5 card with hours invested, material consumed, cost of material and hardware and any relavent notes. I think this may be the way to go.

The other thing is per hour price. I and everyone else pushing 50 dollars and more per hour may be fooling ourselves. The difference is I admit it. Admit that you dont low ball the jobs in the hours needed column partly because your embarassed to follow through on a full bid. Esp. if you overshoot the time investment due to a low ball in the first place. Also, you low ball to get the job when your running a bit lean. If you have three or four jobs pending, your less prone to low ball.

So maybe its a better idea and a more simple idea to charge say $35 dollars per hour and then adhere to the time invested religously as opposed to charging $60 dollars per hour but then shaving hours off the bill to stay in budget. You worked the time, you should get paid for the time.

[Aaron Koehl]

I agree with Dave....although high quality cabinet work is bring huge prices in this area...it is really supply and demand...there are tons of people with high end homes being built..

If you don't take te effort to make your work special then you are going to be compared to "Room and Board" , "Ethan Allen" and even Ikea... It is too easy for someone to go out and buy average looking stuff at cheap prices ...that will always be a difficult arena to play in.
I always thought Todd Burch had the best explanation on his site for pricing custom work- it really cuts down to breaking out of the mass-produced mentality. The greatest challenge is getting the customer to realize that some of these prices just aren't really that high when the items aren't mass-produced.

[Keith Christopher]

[quote=tod evans]..at the end of the week do you really see that money?

No. I don't, and couldn't, bill out at $50/hr, but last week was pretty good. Watch me cry as I type this.

Incoming:
$2035.00- Current job
$500.00- Materials Deposit for another job
$650.00- Couple days' at another job- finally paid.
Equals $3185.
Minus
($400.00) payout to helper
($100.00) -first invoice above forgot trans. reimbursement
($237.00)-second invoice's job's materials were higher than
estimated
($605.00)-truck insurance payment
($1405.00)- get truck fixed and get new tires
($316.00)- DAYCARE
Equals ($3063)

What's left, $122? YIPPEEE!!!!! I'M BUYING!!!!!!!!!

Now, I'll get some of that back, and my truck (paid for, '01 GMC) rarely needs that kind of work, but it gives you an idea of a week in the life of a hard-workin' finish carpenter.


I still think that is considered a profit. :) Think where you'd be without it. ;)

I do business analysis daily. in then end it's all about three things in the words of MAlcom Forbes

never lose money
never lose money
never lose money

[Reg Mitchell]

Well....I do it as a hobby for now. I have been following this thread and it is very educational for me since I do one day want to do it as a liveing.
What I did find intresting is that the exchange of information was honest and stright forward which I took as gentalmen with integrity. I was impressed, which doesn't make a hill of beens to your guy's, but something that doesn't happen too often.
This is the big reason I keep returning to this fourm and listen to what is said.
Thanks Guys :)

[Mike Parzych]

Someone else mentioned location as a key factor. I live somewhat near the Twin Cities and one of the millwork shops I get some lumber from is $40 - for relatively simple work. They do a lot of stair treads/risers. More complex work such a furniture building would be about $50 per hour. I think you have to take your cue from local shops.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I work in an area of Dallas where the people are mostly out to save money. On built-ins, I get $250-275 per day rate. The deck & pergola jobs pay $300-350 a day. I mark up the materials an average of 20% on both.

[Walt Pater]

[quote=Walt Pater]


I still think that is considered a profit. :) Think where you'd be without it. ;)

I do business analysis daily. in then end it's all about three things in the words of MAlcom Forbes

never lose money
never lose money
never lose money

($506.00)-LOML's car insurance
($280.31)-Mo' materials, & a post-it note to check the price of Durock
before I order it next time for s'rock subs
($36.45)- gallon of titebond III and some SS screws
($309.83)-elec. bill, residential & last shop space I rented
($60.00)- gas today
($22.39)- #40 propane
($3.50)- coffee and two slices, eaten while travelling between jobs
($ 12" Forrest Chopmaster)-arrived at dealer, don't know the cost
(Cost of being your own boss)- priceless

My bank account is on cruise control: I put money in there and it spends itself. :) :)

It keeps on going, and going and going...

[Bob Kloes]

I have been making furniture for over 20 years. I think I am worth the same as a mechanic or plumber. I have skills and talents the same as the next guy. I charge 50$ an hour and add 25 to 50% to my material, plus profit. I think woodworkers as a whole undervalue themselves. Just because I do for a living what others see as a hobby or funtime, does not mean I should make less then the next person. I am tired of hobbiests saying that professionals overcharge for what we do. I don't complain what it costs to get my vehicles fixed . It is what it is. I value people who work with their hands and minds. What gets me are the guys who are paid well for what they do, complaining about what we do and charge. If the weekend warriors think they can make things better then us and do it cheaper, then go for it. I have costs that have to be paid like any other business. Sorry for the rant. I just get tired of unjust comparisons. Just because I get to do what others wish they could, does that mean I should be paid less? Bob

[Jay Knoll]

When I was in the consulting business, we billed travel expenses at cost to our clients. You coudn't control airfare or hotel prices, so if they changed, the clients understood that the cost would vary from the estimate.

Can't you estimate material costs and then bill the client for the actual amount (substantiated by receipts of course)?

My boat yard charges by the hour for work, adds material costs and then adds a 10% surcharge to cover "consumable items -- thinners/rags/sandpaper etc." to each job.

I guess it just depends on how specific you want to be with your customers,

I spoke to a friend of mine who is doing finish carpentry and he says that he tells his customers, I bill by the hour and work efficiently, if I say I think that a job will take 2 days I will do my best to complete it in that amount of time. I will only bill you for my actual hours, they could be more or less than that amount. If you want a fixed fee, I will quote you a higher cost to reflect the risk that you are asking me to take.

It seems to be working for him, he said that he is booked solid for the next two months and is telling prospects that he won't even quote jobs until the middle of March.

Of course this could be a reflection of local market conditions, things are so busy here that people can't get competent guys for the smaller jobs, the general contractors have them all tied up on mega mansions and big developments, so the independent guys who deliver a quality job are doing real well.
Jay

[Byron Trantham]

Well I have been "in business" for about 7-8 years. My pricing approach is SWAG!:D especially in the beginning. As the years have passed, I have had enough repeat work (similar items) that have allowed me to more accurately price. Every job though, is a one of a kind event. I keep spreadsheets and CAD drawings for every job. The spreadsheets have three tabs; Quote, Actual; and Invoice. I quote the job and then enter what I ACTUALLY spent (on materials) for the job. Once the job is finished I look back to see how close I was on the labor estimate. I also have a small picture album of earlier work and a web site with more detail. Sometimes this helps. Most of my customers can't be bothered with the web site. They want they want and don't care what I did in the past.

[Steve Wargo]

... If I lived in a high cost area, woodworking wouldn't be a viable way to make a living.
Rob Millard
Oh Rob... You couldn't be more incorrect.

[Rob Millard]

Oh Rob... You couldn't be more incorrect.
Steve,

If I ever have to find out, I hope you are right.
Rob Millard

[brent lenthall]

I'm full time building kitchen/bath cabinets, ent. centers, etc. A couple of things I'd add.

1. Shop rate example:

Shop A: $65/hr., production pocket hole machine, face frame table, widebelt sander, multi-spindle boring machine, large variety of shaper and molder knives, spray booth with heater make-up air, etc.

Shop B: $45/hr., kreg pocket hole jig, vise clamps to assemble FF, belt sander, cuts profiles using multiple passes on router table and buys crown (ever price 4 1/4" cherry crown) drills shelf pin holes with a drill and jig, sprays less durable finish or one that requires longer dry times, etc.

Quality of work equal, Shop A is the bargin even though they are charging $20/hr more. On site work is different because the playing field is mostly level.

2. Spend your time building for people that find value in what you can deliever. Don't try to compete with cabinets from HD or a desk from Pottery Barn. I've had the chance to work with very high end builders if I could bring down my price to work with their project. While it's tempting to do, why cut my profit and lower the bar for future work.

brent

[Grant Morris]

Rob, is your 14 month waiting list continually growing? If so, you are probably not charging enough. In your situation I would increase my pricing until my waiting list grew at around the same rate as my work output. By charging more you will certainly slow the rate of jobs you acquire but that is a good thing as long as enough jobs continue to roll in. Finding the balance between supply and demand is the key to optimal pricing.

Best Regards.

[Cary Swoveland]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the "flinch method" of pricing. You say, "normally a job like this would cost $X". If the client flinches, you add "...but for you...". If no flinch, "...however, this job is a lot more complicated...".

Cary

[Alex Berkovsky]

There's a thread from a year and a half ago. Haven't seen Dev post in a while.

[Rick Hubbard]

But that same work in Benton Falls, ME or Charlo, MT will cost a considerably different amount.



Even though I have driven past it, I don't think I have ever been to Benton Falls, Maine but I have been to Charlo, MT MANY times and I agree- location determines pricing.

(Andy, if you have been to Charlo, did you ever go to Tiny's Blind Pig?)

Rick

[Todd Jensen]

Situation dictates. This is probably the surest rule of pricing. I try to be fair, and then double it. ;) To be honest, I've very, very rarely walked away from a job feeling like I charged too much and my prices are on the high side. Dave Avery's points(and others I was too lazy to read them all), should be really taken to heart about pricing. Pricing is about value and nothing else. The customer's perception of what you are providing and how much they are willing to pay for what you provide, will dictate every time. I create value through my quality, my repoire with clients, and my professionalism. Do they want a $500 invoice on a napkin or a $5000 invoice that is professional? That whole 'build it and they will come' is entirely true. I believe that if you believe in your product and constantly strive to improve it, the work will find you. This is when your pricing will shake out, and you'll find success, regardless of what numbers we throw around for what we charge. I've spent a week on a $500 project and on the flip side can make 2-3 times that in a day. I don't believe there is a true answer to your question, but I think every woodworker that is self employed and does at the very least decent work should be charging $30 - $100/hour. You've got to remember that a lot of hours that you're working aren't necessarily billable so this doesn't transfer to a straight 40 hours times your hourly. Time to make drawings, do layout, give bids, drive to jobsites, unload tools, invoice, etc, etc.... - these are all varying factors on top of your local pricing scene and are among many other variables.

Sorry for the ramble; in short, charge as much as you can. If you're not getting turned down at all, you're too cheap.

[Mike Jones NM]

I guess that I'm in a little bit different boat then most folks. I do just about everything so to speak.
If I come to your job site (this can be anything from framing a house to finish work) it will cost you $20.00 an hour IF I can pick up my tool bag and head to the site.
If I have to use ANY tools that don't fit in the bag the price jumps to $25.00 an hour.
If I have to take any of my power tools, saws etc. the price jumps to $30.00 an hour plus the cost of blades etc.
Shop time is based upon $40.00 an hour plus material and includes the use of any tool I have avaliable.
I bill material at cost.

[J.R. Rutter]

Realistically, the shop rate varies in proportion to how busy the shop is. Charge enough to make a living, or afford the next tool, or whatever. One of the best pieces of advice I got when starting out in this trade was to charge based on what I need to make, not based on what someone else is charging. I know that this can get tricky if you are in a competitive bidding situation. But always be aware that too many people who work wood are willing to underprice their services, to the detriment of themselves and the rest of us. Too bad they don't have more business classes in high school.

[John Economou]

A bit off topic but generally speaking, how many years of experience does one generally have before they can make money woodworking? I know that is very general and it will likely be different for different people but what would you say is the minimum experience necessary to do what you guys do? I'm just curious and and also curious to know if your prices went up as you gained experience or have they always been about the same based on the market.

Thanks.

John

[Todd Jensen]

I love Grant's flinch method. :D And want to second J.R.'s comments on charging what you need to make, not based on what others are charging. I attended a class early on at one of the woodworking shows(a JLC Live show) on the business side and one of the things I took away that has saved me a lot of money over the years(almost as good as making money;) ) is to expect people to turn down your bids. One presenter said that if he was getting more than 10% of his bids, he raised his pricing. While that is a little extreme to me, the principal is valid. I've saved myself a lot of headaches not trying to outguess the next guy and get every job - I charge what its worth for ME to do the job and get it or don't.
To answer part of your question John about making more as experience grows or about the same, the answer for me has been 'both'. My hourly average has risen as my skills have grown as a craftsman and businessman, but sometimes I make about the same on a bid or hourly as I would have a few years ago. The difference now is that I am more efficient, so that the money I made over 3 days or 2 weeks, I can more frequently make in a day or two.
I love this topic as its been one of the greatest challenges for me as a growing craftsman/businessperson. If you're frustrated, don't worry, I think you should be. It has been more challenging to me than learning curved stairs or other difficult aspects of the job itself.
I think ultimately you've got to play around with it a bit. Lose a few jobs. Have a few guys tell you, "Does that include the moon?" and you calmly tell them, "No, thats labor only".... Its a wonderful hair-pulling learning experience, but one that only gets better(I think) by being confident and pushing your boundaries once in a while.

[Dan Barr]

I am a new woodworker and I dont have all the skills of the veteran. I build furniture. I do good work and I wont let a piece out the door until i know that it is 100% acceptable. I cant stand the idea of one of my pieces having a defect. (i cant get referrals or a clientele that way.)

because i am new and somewhat limited in my skills, i only charge $10-30 an hour and materials plus 10-20%. My charged hours include trips to buy materials, gas, loading/unloading and storing materials and all the random other little things associated with the prospective job that DO eat MY time. I am not slow though either. I dont dilly dally in the shop and I dont waste time oogling at the store either.

I get quotes on all the materials before i estimate or buy and include these quotes in the estimate. I walk the client through the plans/designs and materials estimate and i allot 15-25% more time than i need for unexpected things. this comes in handy in the end. I can take the extra few hours to make sure everything is just right if i need. I only charge for the hours worked, not the estimated hours and i explain this to the client as well.

When my skills are at the professional level and i have a few more really nice tools, i will raise my rates and i will accept more complex jobs. Currently i limit my jobs to what i know i can do well. I dont go outside of my skills unless I have the tools and the time to learn the new skill.

well,

its been a pleasure reading this thing,

Dan

[tim rowledge]

It's really interesting to see how people handle this issue. Thanks for sharing. It's also interesting to a Brit just how squeamish americans are about talking about income; I've learned over the years that most of you merkins would rather admit your sexual problems than your salary.

When I was doing a masters in Industrial Design we were actually taught a bit about running a business. Let's see if I can remember enough to make my tutors not wince:-
a) be honest about all the numbers. fooling yourself is... foolish
b) be aware of what the job is competing with - ie what could you realistically earn working for someone or at some other job and what the job gives back to you
c) work out what you *have* to make to be able to stay in business; be obsessively complete
d) now make a plausible estimate of how much of your time is going to be billable. Sadly, no one ever explained to me how to get that right...
e) divide c by d to work out the absolute minimum you must charge per hr/day/week/whatever
f) now work out by whatever means of market research you able to carry out how much you might be able to get away with charging; compare to other equivalent practitioners, consider locale, customer base etc.
g) if f does not handily exceed e, try to find another location, occupation, or think of some way to improve your skill levels so as to raise your value for f.

Sounds to me like a lot of people that have posted so far would make my tutor smile. What amazed me was the number of fellow students that actually objected to the idea of "charge what the market will bear" and thought they should just charge enough to get by, as if charging for their (supposed) skill was immoral. It's just as well I never fell into that trap or I would not have been able to survive the collapse of my main customer base for 3 years...

[Andy Hoyt]

(Andy, if you have been to Charlo, did you ever go to Tiny's Blind Pig?) Rick

Was there in 1968 or 69 when we spent time with Bud Cheff. Don't recall any pigs - blind or otherwise.

[Dixon Peer]

Even though I only do laminate countertops for a living, I do a few things different than most guys in my area.

In the beginning, it was approximately $30 a linear foot for tops, depending on how many feet. I add up all the inches, divide by 12 and multiply by 30. Tear-out of old tops and sink removal are different rates. Then I went to saying that I don't price by the linear foot, I price by the job. Most customers want to compare what the other guy charges and then say he's cheaper than you. I got 3 estimates and this guy beat you by $125, can you come down. My answer is always a kind "no I can't do that". I'm not high, he's low. My price is fair for the work that I am doing for you based off my materials, time, and yes, quality of work. You won't get burned edges and radius corners you can push in and out with your thumb.

I have too LARGE albums with pictures of many, many jobs I have done and that alone helps tremendously.

When people ask, what do you mean price by the job, I say that I figure out my materials, based off the kitchen measurements, and come up with a fair figure for them and for me based off my time and materials.

Example: I qouted a job $1900 a year and half ago. Two other companies were within $150 of my bid. The gentleman called me a couple days later and said someone underbid you by $700!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I told him a builder would not get it that cheap from me and there is no way I could do anything with that price.
Well, the company in question took my samples that I had left with the homeowner to look over for a few days(obviously, they qouted after my qoute). I said, no problem, I'll pick them up after they're done with the job, if you don't mind. He was so happy that I was willing to come look at their work after I didn't get the job, I thought he was going to come through the phone and hug me!!! Well..........3 days after the top was complete, I go to look at their work. I told him I would be honest and that I get no satisfaction from putting down anyone else's work. If it's good, I'll tell ya.
Well the seam at the sink was open enough that I could almost put a dime in it. They used white caulk on a brownish colored top. The edges of the laminate were burned on almost every linear foot of countertop in the kithen. The radius corners flexed in and out. Here's the kicker. They routed all the laminate off with a straight bit and I swear they didn't file any of it. You could take your finger nails and slightly lift up the edges any where you tried. That part, I didn't have the heart to say anything about to the homeowner. The burned edges (which they asked "what is that"), the open seam and the caulk I did tell them about.

This thread was about how much guys charge for their work, and Dev, I hope I have not gone off topic too much. Although I would never ever mention another company by name to any customer, I do tell a quick version of this situation, one of many, I have had in the past. I only do this with a few certain customers who start asking about price a lot or quality of work compared to others. I also tell them there are many good fabricators out there, but there are some bad ones too. Don't just go by price for foot. Decide if you feel comfortable with me and what I've said and showed you during my estimate.

The gentleman with the $700 difference said "how can he be so much lower?". I said there's a reason for it, I can tell you that. I also said, if he was that good why wouldn't his qoutes be more in line with every else's. Doesn't he want to make $700 more? The company in question doesn't have to worry about referrals, they will always get phone calls from people who don't know their work and then they will get a lot of those jobs because a certain percentage of people are always looking for the lowest price.

Price by the job (if you can) and don't be shy about your work. Pictures help alot and so do referrals (the most powerful business tool you have). I almost forgot. I was told recently that the company in question closed down and opened up under another:eek: name. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:rolleyes:

Thanks for reading and God Bless you if you made it this far!:)

David

Most people in my neck of the woods probably would've given the above mentioned coutertop fabricator a real tough time when it came to the check, though they would certainly have been partly responsible for the poor quality of work. In the end, you get what you pay for, if you're lucky.

[Dave McGeehan]

What amazed me was the number of fellow students that actually objected to the idea of "charge what the market will bear" and thought they should just charge enough to get by, as if charging for their (supposed) skill was immoral.

To Tim's above statement I'd like to add: When you under-charge for your work you are not only hurting yourself, you are hurting all your fellow woodworkers trying to make a decent living (especially in your geographic area).

[J.R. Rutter]

To Tim's above statement I'd like to add: When you under-charge for your work you are not only hurting yourself, you are hurting all your fellow woodworkers trying to make a decent living (especially in your geographic area).

Hear hear!

Family excepted, of course.

[Mike Heidrick]

Has anyone heard of pricing by the Bdft? I do hobby woodworking (friends and family) and have recently found a WW mentor that owns a local cabinet business on the side. He and I both work for the same employer during the day for our "real jobs". He then goes home and works full time again making cabinets. I go home and play. I am learning from him (espically the business side) and recently he offered to set me up with a paying job of my own. Pricing he threw at me came in at $.25 bdft for planing and $.50bdft for shaping. Wood will be provided and will have been milled close to 4/4. Job will be making tounge and groove wall/ceiling covering at about 1000 bdft. I will not install or finish it - just mill and shape it. Price will also include new cutters (freeborn cutters that I will keep) and sharpening expenses for the planer. I own a pretty complete shop and will be glad to have the tools earn for a change.

I will do it whatever the pricing as it is a lesson I want to take on. I respect my mentor and will go with his advice. Wanted to know what the SMC WW community feels about this pricing proposal.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Yes, I have. Trim carpenters generally work by the boardfoot. Doing what you will be doing, that's probably a good way to price it. If you can get the work done in a day, you bet that's a good deal. It's not a bad deal if you do it in two. Working at your home shop sure has it's lure, I know I jump at the chance everytime I can [like today...a rain day].

[Jeff Raymond]

Interestingly enough, as a hobbyist, I am doing a kitchen hutch similar to a Thomas Moser piece. There is nothing really new to me in this hutch except the store bought drawer runners, so I am not spending much time on this project learning new techniques. If I apply the $65 per hour and materials + 15%, then I come out just a little cheaper than what Moser wants for his. Now, if I could just build as well as Moser does ....


This is an interesting post.

As a person who has been in the Moser manufacturing plant, there isn't a single cabinetmaker there. Furthermore, the quality of work I witnessed was not particularly good. Face frames are only glued on and production is the goal.

As in any good idea, the compelling sales pitch is 'the name,' which unfortunately does not support the low quality and ridiculous pricing I have seen come out of the factory.

We make a good living off the people who look at their catalogues and say, "What? You must be kidding!"

And we get the order on a custom basis, a nice profit and better work.

The deeper one scratches into some of these things, the more you will find out.

There's 2 cents for ya.

[Jeff Raymond]

This issue depends upon what kind of 'woodworking' you are doing. High end furniture makers with unique designs can charge more than, say a finish carpenter. Doing Popular Mechanics knockoffs will earn less than an accomplished stairmaker, for example.

In order to answer the original question is quit difficult as much of wood working is supply and demand at whatever level. If you have a large investment in large tools, a shop, provide consultation services and so on, you should be charging for that.

There are lots of guys with a Skil saw and a pickup truck who are providing a good service, but there are lots of those folks around and they won't be able to demand the bigger bucks.

Take a look at your investment, experience and the entire package you have to offer the customer. You should be receiving a requisite return on your investment + make a profit overall. If not, jack up your rates and don't get caught running all over town for too little money. An experienced cabinetmaker, for example, should be able to do very well, no matter his/her location with the internet, word of mouth, catalogues and a bit of promotion.

In this day when most of the furniture, for example, is junk from China, there are many people who are willing to pay the same or a little more to get quality work Made in America.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[Dan Barr]

Hi tim,

Do you have any advice on building/rebuilding your clientele? Like i said in my post, i'm new and am striving to build clientele. Any pointers would be appreciated.

I think i might just make a post with this question.

v/r

Dan

[Dan Barr]

As many or as few as you are comfortable with. i seriously started woodworking one year ago and have already begun a piece for profit.

v/r

dan