Township building codes.

[Tim Elett]

Any one know what the reason why a metal gazebo needs to be at least ten feet from the house? Per township ordnance :confused:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Any one know what the reason why a metal gazebo needs to be at least ten feet from the house? Per township ordnance :confused:

Did you ask the ordnance enforcement people? Whenever I have wanted to do something that must be to code, they have always provided clear, concise reasoning and in fact, in two cases, gave me some suggested alternates that made my renovations meet code and saved time and money!

[Tim Elett]

The person at the office said she doesn't know, just ordnance rule. I am going to dig into it further, she says I can apply for a variant for 300.00.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Call back and ask to speak to an enforcement official/inspector.

I actually had one come out to do a "prebuild inspection" where he made a suggestion that made for an easy fix for me.

[Tim Elett]

The person at the office said she doesn't know, just ordnance rule. I am going to dig into it further, she says I can apply for a variant for 300.00.
Looking further on the net one reason is for fire safety, maby I will be able to get a variant.

[Jim Koepke]

The person at the office said she doesn't know, just ordnance rule. I am going to dig into it further, she says I can apply for a variant for 300.00.

Maybe the reason is for revenue? :eek:

It could also be a factor if there is regular lightning strikes in your area. A metal gazebo is likely to get hit by lightning.

Hopefully an enforcement officer can give you a valid reason.

jtk

[Tim Elett]

Looking further on the net one reason is for fire safety, maby I will be able to get a variant.
Looks like a general code rule, just one of those things that the commission thinks is necessary Welcome to home owner ship.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I have had that rule explained as being for fire spread and for fire fighter access around structures. An all metal building might qualify for a variance. Obtaining a variance is a big deal in our town requiring a newspaper ad, notifying the neighbors, and a public hearing. I once created a breezeway to attach an auxiliary structure that was too close to a house. Attaching with a breezeway made it all "one structure" therefore OK. Interestingly both times I have gone through the ordeal of obtaining a variance the projects were unusual placements for metal pre-fab buildings. Both projects were approved.

[Jim Becker]

Building codes and zoning requirements are ALL local. Your local zoning officer should be able to answer the question, even if office staff cannot. If you go to your jurisdiction's website, you should be able to find the contact information for the actual zoning officer and be able to send an email about the specific question about why. That will get you an explanation. But unless you want to do a big dance required for a variance...which I doubt you would get for something like this...you'll have to follow the requirement if you build the structure.

[Jack Frederick]

Not wanting to get involved with the Code Folks hurts you more than them. Get a good site drawing showing all buildings, utility service locations. Add your proposed structure and make an appointment with a code officer. Yes, they can be the hardest of axxes but I’ve found them to be helpful face to face and actually appreciative that you take the time to ask. I’m of the opinion that it can make your site inspections on work done easier having them believing that you care to do it correctly.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I also built a "detached" screened dining room on a deck. The fact that it sat on a deck that was attached to the house allowed it to be built close to the house.

[Jim Becker]

Not wanting to get involved with the Code Folks hurts you more than them. Get a good site drawing showing all buildings, utility service locations. Add your proposed structure and make an appointment with a code officer. Yes, they can be the hardest of axxes but I’ve found them to be helpful face to face and actually appreciative that you take the time to ask. I’m of the opinion that it can make your site inspections on work done easier having them believing that you care to do it correctly.
This is good advice and consistent with my own experience. I made it a point to get to know the local code officer and his second in command right from the first project here after we moved in. That was very helpful, especially when I got to the "big kahuna"...my new shop building. They not only got to clarify requirements and process, but also got to understand that I wanted to do things consistent with both code and local requirements. (And now that I chair the local planning commission and have other interactions with them, direct and indirect, they understand where any concerns I express come from)

[Steve Demuth]

Did you ask the ordnance enforcement people? Whenever I have wanted to do something that must be to code, they have always provided clear, concise reasoning and in fact, in two cases, gave me some suggested alternates that made my renovations meet code and saved time and money!

Now that's an interesting experience. The only answer I've ever got from that exercise is "that's what it says in the zoning ordinance" or "that's the law." Not that those are wrong answers, but they're not very informative.

My favorite was trying to get an explanation for why, since the zoning ordinance prohibited a guest house from being more than 600 square feet and from having a basement, I was required to put in a septic system sized for a 3 bedroom, 6 occupant, dwelling. The answer was right - the house size restrictions were in the local ordinance, and the septic system requirement was in state law (with an unexercised option for local modification).

[Bill Dufour]

My town used to have the codes online and you look things up. No longer. Now for most stuff it is pretty much call us to find out. So I look at other cities codes to get an idea of what will be allowed here.
The old online code said no permit required for a panel replacement if it was over 100 amps.
Bill D

[Tim Elett]

Thanks for the help, monday I will ask about something that is attached to the house,like a patio.

[Mel Fulks]

I think they just want you to enjoy the experience ! They follow Martha Stewart’s guidance. Lightning might be a reason, too.

[Jack Frederick]

Holy Smokes, Jim! No salt on your tail;) How long have you been in town and you are heading the PC. I admire and respect your initiative.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Now that's an interesting experience. The only answer I've ever got from that exercise is "that's what it says in the zoning ordinance" or "that's the law." Not that those are wrong answers, but they're not very informative.

My favorite was trying to get an explanation for why, since the zoning ordinance prohibited a guest house from being more than 600 square feet and from having a basement, I was required to put in a septic system sized for a 3 bedroom, 6 occupant, dwelling. The answer was right - the house size restrictions were in the local ordinance, and the septic system requirement was in state law (with an unexercised option for local modification).

Steve, in one case, a former owner of this house had built a bathroom and had it connecting directly with an open doorway, no door, to the utility room where both the washer/dryer was located, the water heater and the gas furnace. Local code said you can't have a shower/bath in the same room as a furnace (worried about accelerated rust on the furnace) so I asked the inspector how on earth can I install a door there? The inspector suggested a pocket door. Bingo! I purchased a pocket door kit and the newly separated utility room passed code.

In the same bathroom, the previous owner built it with the electrical panel in the bathroom. That didn't meet code. When I tore out the original galvanized shower, framed the room out with a tiled shower and drain, this came to light. This was with a different inspector. He pointed it out saying he couldn't pass it but IF I was to frame in a short wall more than 36" across from the panel and put a door at each end so the electrical panel was in it's own little room, there would be a bathroom at one end of the hall, a bedroom at the other end and it would pass code.

I really have gotten some good recommendations from the code people. I had broken my back and for a physical therapy while I was off work, I built an octagon goose gazebo to house 3 concrete geese brought to our home by a sister (I am the oldest of 6 and I think the geese were her act of retribution for our childhood). When the 2nd inspector came out inspect a new gas furnace installation, he saw the gazebo, looked it over and said it would pass inspection too. (Hurricane clips holding the rafters to the wall.:D).

[Tim Elett]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I will try to get the inspector to come out and take a look, but my project is a12x12 metal gazebo thats not ok,but a 10x13 patio umbrella or a easy up screen roomthe same size would not need a permit. 🙄

[Jim Becker]

Holy Smokes, Jim! No salt on your tail;) How long have you been in town and you are heading the PC. I admire and respect your initiative.
Three years this past Tuesday was our "house-a-versary". I got "drafted" for the commission by a neighbor who is an elected council member a year ago. In January, I got stuck with "the job". Honestly, it's not difficult other than having to wrangle enough of the other volunteer members to have a quorum each month...you would think that wouldn't be hard since it's the same flippin' day and time every month. Sheesh! All good people, although there is one dude we could all do without. "That guy", as it were. Can't get rid of him...can't get him to quit. LOL

[Mel Fulks]

Make him the ,Head Of Garbage and Refuse Department, “ Make him an offer he can’t refuse”

[Jim Becker]

Make him the ,Head Of Garbage and Refuse Department, “ Make him an offer he can’t refuse”
If only...but that's not really something possible. ;) Not only is it not a function of a planning commission, that particular "sport" is subcontracted out to Waste Management. :D

[Larry Edgerton]

God luck. There are three townships around here that I will not bid a job in if it requires permitting. I can't bid and make money because their rules are so arbitrary.

[George Yetka]

I would say lightning. If it is Ok to have a wooden one attached they must be afraid of lighting striking it and setting the house on fire. Tell them youll put a nice big ground rod on it.

[Brian Elfert]

You usually can't get a variance unless there is a reason not of your making that makes something not work. If you can't place the gazebo ten feet away because it send up in the neighbor's yard that might be a reason to grant a variance. They might not grant a variance if you simply want it closer than ten feet and there is space to put it at ten feet.

A friend of mine rebuilt his two car garage that was within five or ten feet of the property line. He was required to use drywall on the exterior of the property line side underneath the siding. I don't think he needed a variance since the existing garage was in the same location.

[Jim Becker]

A friend of mine rebuilt his two car garage that was within five or ten feet of the property line. He was required to use drywall on the exterior of the property line side underneath the siding. I don't think he needed a variance since the existing garage was in the same location.
There is often dispensation for garages relative to side-setbacks compared to residential accessory buildings and other structures and that likely stems from the very real fact that driveways, themselves, are often close to the line. Our jurisdiction requires 15' side-setbacks for all structures except garages. Garages require a minimum 5' side-setback. And yes, like-for-like, including setbacks is often approved for same footprint replacements with some restrictions and requirements. But again, zoning is "local".

[Maurice Mcmurry]

A way to get around the 10 foot rule is to be sure the auxiliary structure is less than 100 square feet. Garden sheds and small, portable, auxiliary structures <100 SF do not require permits in our town. One gentleman in our neighborhood has a shop created out of several 8 X 12 garden sheds all lined up right on the property line and very close to the house.

[Jim Becker]

A way to get around the 10 foot rule that is to be sure the auxiliary structure is less than 100 square feet. Garden sheds and small, portable, auxiliary structures <100 SF do not require permits in our town. One gentleman in our neighborhood has a shop created out of several 8 X 12 garden sheds all lined up right on the property line and very close to the house.
Permits and zoning are two separate things. While a residential accessory building under 200 sq ft might not require a permit, it will still be subject to zoning setbacks in most jurisdictions unless it's specifically called out in the details of the particular residential zone regulations that apply to the property.

[Bill Dufour]

Most of california sheds under 120 square feet can be on the property line, no permits, etc. Some height rules and no overhang over a fence line. Add power or water and you need permits. Two such sheds allowed per one lot.
The 120 sq feet is the max size sold at box stores.
BilLD

[Tom M King]

I’m thankful that what we have here is zoned agricultural. No permit required to build anything to house tractors or equipment and no written rules about converting these buildings to something else unless they are going to be lived in.

Individual agricultural use also frees up from under all sorts of other regulations too.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I’m thankful that what we have here is zoned agricultural. No permit required to build anything to house tractors or equipment and no written rules about converting these buildings to something else unless they are going to be lived in.

Individual agricultural use also frees up from under all sorts of other regulations too.

We have several counties in MO that have no county wide building department whatsoever, and it shows. In those areas subdivisions create restrictive covenants and lenders require buyers to prove compliance when a home mortgage is applied for. We looked for a long time to find a country spot that is not in a town or subdivision.

[Rob Luter]

God luck. There are three townships around here that I will not bid a job in if it requires permitting. I can't bid and make money because their rules are so arbitrary.

Puzzled....

I work with building and code officials all the time. To a man (or woman) they would all rather have the codes conversation on the front end of the permitting process than on the back end. I can't tell you how many conversations I've had at the behest of panicked customers that installed windows and or doors that were not code compliant with respect to structural or thermal ratings.

Michigan adopted the 2015 IRC/IBC/IECC with amendments. It's the responsibility of the contractor to know this and understand them in the context of the project. In most areas knowing the code landscape is a prerequisite for gaining and maintaining professional license.

Are you saying that the building officials in these townships just make it up as they go along, of just selectively enforce the things that they want to?

I'm reminded of an old adage I learned coming up in the Building Products Industry: The difference between God and a Building Inspector is that God does not believe he's a Building Inspector.

[Larry Edgerton]

Puzzled....

I work with building and code officials all the time. To a man (or woman) they would all rather have the codes conversation on the front end of the permitting process than on the back end. I can't tell you how many conversations I've had at the behest of panicked customers that installed windows and or doors that were not code compliant with respect to structural or thermal ratings.

Michigan adopted the 2015 IRC/IBC/IECC with amendments. It's the responsibility of the contractor to know this and understand them in the context of the project. In most areas knowing the code landscape is a prerequisite for gaining and maintaining professional license.

Are you saying that the building officials in these townships just make it up as they go along, of just selectively enforce the things that they want to?


Twice I had plans approved by the county/state for new homes and the township stepped in and said you can't do that. One was a replacement for an existing house and the plans called for it to actually be 10 feet farther away from the lake than the original. They stopped the project and the homeowners decided they did not want the house if they had to put it back as far as the township demanded. The irony was that the head jerk for the township lived three houses down and his house was closer to the lake than the original. Small people with a bit of power.

Now by this time I had over 100 hrs in the bid and permits, getting all the subs arranged, and wasted my subs time which I hate to do. Life is too short to deal with these kinds of people. I was never short of work, so I just blow those places off.

[Tim Elett]

Very thankful for all the replys, this fantasy project is not going to be done. It NEEDS to be ten feet from our home, and would mean three permits, around 35.00 each,plus something to set it on, pavers [ did I mention I already have a paver patio] or build a wooden deck. The cost of the building would be less than something to put it on.
Good advice from Tom and Maurice next move , the place will have what we want. 🙄