Lie Nielsen Socket Chisels

[James Jayko]

Hey all, I've spent a small fortune on Lie Nielsen socket chisels. While they're great as chisels, the fact that the handle constantly fall out drive me absolutely crazy, especially given the price.

A. Is there a way to secure these handles and not ruin the chisels? I see no benefit or reason to take the handles off.
B. Should I just sell these and get Veritas / Blue Spruce chisels? Feels like modifying these really nice chisels that are probably great for somebody seems like it might be silly if I could just sell them and get something that doesn't keep coming apart.

Thoughts?

[mike stenson]

Sell them and get tang chisels. I only have that issue if I don't use them for a long time though.

[Keegan Shields]

A little hair spray on the part of the handle that interfaces with the socket helps. There's likely a defect on that portion of the handle that is preventing the surfaces from mating (or maybe on the inside of the socket).

Once I started grabbing and handling the chisels by the socket instead of the handle, I haven't had any issues. The wooden handle mostly just fills the palm when I use them.

Using a wooden mallet to clear some dovetail waste will also set the handles in their socket firmly.

If it bothers you, sell them! Lots of good chisel sets on the market.

[chris carter]

I used to have a couple socket chisels that would give me grief. I did the hair spray thing that Lie-Nielsen recommends and it worked a little. The solution for me was violin rosin. You can buy a piece for $5 shipped on Amazon. Just rub it on the handle portion and slam it home. It won’t come out without some effort.

[Jimmy Harris]

I know it's blasphemy, but I'd probably try to glue them on. I would think a little bit of contact cement would hold them together well enough, without being permanent. It would be easy enough to undue if it failed, anyway. I think Lie Neilsen recommends the hair spray trick, which is the same idea, but with a less aggressive adhesive.

Though it might be better to sell them and get some tang chisels. I only use tang chisels for this reason. My humidity fluctuates too much here for wooden handled socket chisels.

[Edward Weber]

A small amount of epoxy will keep them put and can be easily removed by warming up the socket with a heat gun or even hair drier.

Doesn't matter what chisels they are or who made them, if they don't work, fix them.

[Jim Koepke]

The problem with the LN socket chisels vs the handles may be due to a few factors.

Old socket chisels were not made to the degree of perfection the LN chisels can boast. This may cause a problem from the socket being too smooth. (more on this later)

Another problem, that in the past, caused my socket chisel handles to sometimes slip was from the fit being slightly different from socket to handle. Anyone who has a lathe or taken the chuck off of a drill press is likely familiar with a Morse Taper's holding ability. The principle is the same with a socket chisel, though one of the components is made of hardwood. Two tapered pieces made to mate as exactly as possible will tend to stay mated, even without a blow from a mallet.

A bit of texture inside the socket of a chisel can aid the holding ability of a socket chisel handle.

Another advantage with an older chisel handle is there is likely some oxidation or other substance inside the socket from years of age. This helps when fitting a handle. It may be the handle going though the annual changes absorbed and released moisture leading to the oxidation inside the socket.

For me the first part of fitting a handle to a socket chisel (this is after the handle has been formed on a lathe or by hand) is to check the taper. Lightly set the handle into the socket and try to wiggle it, side to side and to and fro. Any movement at this point indicates the tapers are not matched.

Once the tapers are matched, hold the chisel and socket together and twist them in opposite directions. With an older chisel the oxidation inside will usually mark the high spots on the tenon of the handle. My finest rasp or file is used to lightly remove the marked spots. Repeat this until the tenon comes out of the socket evenly marked all around.

With the LN chisels, it may help to run a small piece of sandpaper inside the socket. It may also help to drop some graphite from a pencil sharpener into the socket so it will be able to mark the handle's tenon.

In my accumulation of socket chisels there were three that occasionally released from their handles. It has been over two years since they were given the full treatment and none of them have released since.

One of these days, time will be found to make a new handle for a chisel and document the fitting.

Need to find one of them round tuits.

518539

jtk

[Rob Luter]

Hey all, I've spent a small fortune on Lie Nielsen socket chisels. While they're great as chisels, the fact that the handle constantly fall out drive me absolutely crazy, especially given the price.

A. Is there a way to secure these handles and not ruin the chisels? I see no benefit or reason to take the handles off.
B. Should I just sell these and get Veritas / Blue Spruce chisels? Feels like modifying these really nice chisels that are probably great for somebody seems like it might be silly if I could just sell them and get something that doesn't keep coming apart.

Thoughts?

I've had my set for 10+ years and never had an issue. I'd try hair spray or spray adhesive for mounting photos. Both will be tacky but not fully harden.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I've had my set for 10+ years and never had an issue. I'd try hair spray or spray adhesive for mounting photos. Both will be tacky but not fully harden.

I’ve had mine for 20+ years, use them on almost every project without any issues. Luck of the draw? Was going to suggest photo mount spray adhesive, but you beat me to it.

[James Jayko]

Well it seems that the tapered part of the handle and the inside of the socket may be way too smooth. So I guess I'll try some 220 and some hairspray? Its one in particular that is a problem. But its the 1/2", and that's the one that gets used all the time. I just see myself holding the handle as the blade bounces across the concrete shop floor...

[Edward Weber]

There may be a different machining process used today than there was when you guys who bought 10 or 20 years ago.
As Jim pointed out in detail, a smooth fit is great for a metal to metal morse taper, not so good when one of the materials can change size with the weather.
Older socket chisels were not always even throughout with varying wall thickness, since many were formed, not machined.
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All the imperfections helped hold the handle in place.
A spot of adhesive isn't sacrilege if it makes the tool usable.

[Mike Henderson]

I made replacement handles for my LN chisels from cocobolo which is an oily wood. Had some problems with the handles staying in the sockets so I used epoxy. When I had to remove one handle, I heated the socket and the handle came out easily. I only had to get the socket fairly warm, not really hot.

Mike

[John C Cox]

Wring the handle into the socket, and then inspect the pattern left on the wood. Are there any burrs on the socket? Incomplete contact? I would check the one causing trouble. Find/fix the burr, then sand/chisel off the wear spots on the wood a touch at a time until you get pretty uniform contact. 60-70% is great. Often, you start with hard contact in 1-spot and none anywhere else.

[les winter]

LN recommends the hair spray fix. Also, as the summer approaches, the humidity will swell the handles. That and the spray and you're good to go. I've had mine forever. When they were new, I had the same problem. The spray fixed it.

[Edward Weber]

LN recommends the hair spray fix. Also, as the summer approaches, the humidity will swell the handles. That and the spray and you're good to go. I've had mine forever. When they were new, I had the same problem. The spray fixed it.

Where I live, the opposite is correct.
The summer months are dry, low humidity.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I had the same problem with my mortise chisels, in low-humidity months. The business end of a 1/2" mortise chisel is nothing to sneer at when it drops off the handle as you are picking it up. Serious weight and serious sharp accelerating towards my foot at 32'/sec/sec.

Had no hairspray; had no other use for excess hairspray; could not figure out why I would ever want to switch handles. One teensy dab of thick CA glue solve the problem.

[Tom M King]

I'm going to add this probably useless bit of information for about anyone, but just in case it does anyone any good.

I had this problem with one of my timber framing chisels. I work on golf clubs, and that involves installing and pulling shafts for trials of different types of shafts, mainly for drivers and other woods. These use composite shafts for a good long time now, and you have to be careful not to use too much heat to melt a multi-hundred dollar shaft. Golf club epoxy is designed to break down about 100 degrees lower than the laminating epoxy in the shafts which sounds like a large difference but even then it takes a Lot of force to pull the head and you have to be very careful.

The other problem with even golf club epoxy is that it's hard to clean out of the hosel and off the pulled shaft. There is an adhesive that some tour vans use. It's plenty strong enough, but the main advantages are that it cures quickly and after heating to pull a shaft, it bubbles and crackles up to make a crispy layer that is very easy to clean away. It releases at a lower heat than even golf club epoxy does too.

The drawbacks are that it requires a special gun for the duotubes it comes in, and that it's pretty expensive these days.

I used it on my timber framing chisel that didn't want to keep the handle in and it worked fine. If I ever need to pull the handle, I'm sure it will be a simple job.

I would not have bought it for the chisel job, but since I already had some, it was the ideal solution. I know the handle will not come out unless I want it to.

The adhesive is 3M DP810. Put the double cap back on it after use and it lasts for years. I do keep it and other duotube adhesives and epoxies in a refrigerator.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for the information Tom. It is always interesting to learn about the so many other things used for a specialized purpose that have "crossover" utility in woodworking.

As in another thread, one of my other sources for "crossover" materials is in the lapidary world. They have some very fine polishing abrasives and they also use some equipment that is useful in woodworking.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

Aren't you supposed to fit this type of handles?

The inside of my old chisel sockets are not smooth, the fit takes advantage of that. The picture below shows two chisels I've taken the time to fit properly and the third is a Stanley 750 with the factory fit. In other words, not fitted, it sticks out too much.

I would imagine these LN chisels have smooth sockets and machine made handles. Considering the reputation this brand has, having to glue the handle so the chisel doesn't fall off is pretty bad.

518608

[Edward Weber]

There is fitted and then there's fitted.
Top chisel looks to be fitted well but maybe on the tight side.
Middle chisel has virtually no gap, that's too tight. IMO
The Stanley has too large of a gap, not necessary but not an issue other than aesthetics.
More gap is better than no gap in this situation.
The entire idea of a socket chisel is that it gets tighter when struck. It should only contact the sides of the socket not the bottom. If the handle is fitted too closely to the outside of the socket, splits in the wood can happen in that area and mushrooming can start. There needs to be "some" room for eventual movement. When the handle shrinks a bit and gets repeatedly struck, it needs room to set further into the socket, hence the need for extra room at the pictured connection area. If there is no room to move, the handle starts to mushroom the socket.
Example of mushrooming just starting & handle splitting
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As to dry fitting, yes it works, but as others, as well as myself have said, ambient weather makes a difference.
There is nothing wrong with some type of adhesive.

[Rafael Herrera]

The Stanley has too large of a gap, not necessary but not an issue other than aesthetics.


That gap in the stanley chisel and others I have. When I grasp it, the rim of the socket digs into the skin of my palm when I tighten my grip while malleting. It's not a comfortable handle.

The other two, much better. I don't know if the middle handle will go any deeper, I certainly malleted the crap out of it in the final fit. But if it does mushroom, that's not hard to cut off to tidy up the fit.

The humidity in my workshop is relatively stable, no wild swings. Whether that helped or not, I don't know, I can't recall any socket handle falling off in the last few years. If any of the chisels did that I'd be pretty annoyed, specially if it landed on the concrete or my foot, even more it they were supposedly premium chisels. Handles made of a different wood species might perform better.

[mike stenson]

Aren't you supposed to fit this type of handles?

The inside of my old chisel sockets are not smooth, the fit takes advantage of that. The picture below shows two chisels I've taken the time to fit properly and the third is a Stanley 750 with the factory fit. In other words, not fitted, it sticks out too much.

I would imagine these LN chisels have smooth sockets and machine made handles. Considering the reputation this brand has, having to glue the handle so the chisel doesn't fall off is pretty bad.

518608

I've had loose handles on my (gen1) LN's with the same frequency as my vintage socket chisels.

[Rafael Herrera]

Time will tell, those two above were fitted as just a few weeks ago.

Were your handles fitted?

[Mike Henderson]

I've made a lot of handles for socket chisels, both antique and modern. The antique chisels with the rough interior sockets hold a handle well - I never had one come loose. I did have trouble with the LN chisels which I made new handles for (the stock handles are too short).

Regarding fitting the handle to the socket, there should be small "gap" between the large part of the handle and the top of the socket. Over time, as you use the chisel (and pound on it) the wood will compress and the handle will go further into the socket. If you don't leave a gap, the large part of the handle starts to mushroom, or the handle gets loose.

Mike

[Edward Weber]

Time will tell indeed, there is no rule set in stone, lots of variable at play.
Here are a few things the OP and possibly others might find useful.
https://paulsellers.com/2014/03/socketed-chisels-turn-loose/
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https://www.finewoodworking.com/2014/01/27/tip-for-fitting-a-handle-to-a-socket-chisel
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[mike stenson]

I've made a lot of handles for socket chisels, both antique and modern. The antique chisels with the rough interior sockets hold a handle well - I never had one come loose. I did have trouble with the LN chisels which I made new handles for (the stock handles are too short).

Regarding fitting the handle to the socket, there should be small "gap" between the large part of the handle and the top of the socket. Over time, as you use the chisel (and pound on it) the wood will compress and the handle will go further into the socket. If you don't leave a gap, the large part of the handle starts to mushroom, or the handle gets loose.

Mike

I wonder if using a punch to dimple the inner surface of the chisel socket would help.

[Mike Henderson]

I wonder if using a punch to dimple the inner surface of the chisel socket would help.

I've tried scratching the inside of the socket but didn't seem to make any difference. But maybe my scratches were not deep enough.

Mike

[Jimmy Harris]

I thought about CA glue, but was worried that it dries very hard, and between all of the pounding and expanding and contracting, it might break the CA glue joint. But I'm glad to know it does work.

[Jim Koepke]

Here is an old post on determining the taper and reproducing it > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?112339

I've used the fundamentals of this with my own method. With a handle on the lathe, the last step for me is making the tapered tenon. This works well at the tail stock end. I will check the depth using a thin rod for total depth and a 1/4" or 3/8" dowel to see where the end of the tenon should set. When the depth of the tenon is determined a pair of heavy dividers is set to this. (this is used to mark the depth on the workpiece in the lathe)

The maximum diameter is then determined for the tenon and reproduced on the workpiece at the handle end marked by the dividers. The small end is then cut. After this it is a simple matter of cutting the taper between the high point and the low point.

jtk