HELP with Cherry Wood Movement ??

[Jerry Olexa]

I'm building a cherry bedside chest. The plan I am using calls for Cherry Ply sides dressed with wood stiles and moldings. I opted instead for solid cherry sides (glued panels ending up about 19X24). The carcass is formed when the web frames (spaced for the drawers)and top/bottom panels are glued into the dadoes I already routed in the side panels.
Now that I am not using Plywood, I'm concerned about wood movement. How would you connect the web frames, top and bottom panels to the side panels so the wood movement issue is covered? Or is this not an issue?? A later wood gap would be frustrating. Thanks, Guys..:confused:

[Tim Sproul]

You normally fix the web frame pieces to the front of the solid wood case and then fasten in the middle of the case to allow for movement (washer head screw in slot). The runners/kickers might be mortised into the back rails/drawer dividers but that joint would be left unglued and might produce a larger, unseen gap during the more humid months. Top and bottom panels should be solid if the sides are solid. As long as the grain is running a circle rather than crossed, movement isn't too much of an issue. Join them well to resist warp.

[Frank Chaffee]

You normally fix the web frame pieces to the front of the solid wood case and then fasten in the middle of the case to allow for movement (washer head screw in slot). The runners/kickers might be mortised into the back rails/drawer dividers but that joint would be left unglued and might produce a larger, unseen gap during the more humid months. Top and bottom panels should be solid if the sides are solid. As long as the grain is running a circle rather than crossed, movement isn't too much of an issue. Join them well to resist warp.
Jerry,
Popular Woodworking magazine has an excellent two part article covering this type of construction. The author is Lonnie Bird and the issues are November 2005 (#151) and December 2005 (#152).
Frank

[Jerry Olexa]

Jerry,
Popular Woodworking magazine has an excellent two part article covering this type of construction. The author is Lonnie Bird and the issues are November 2005 (#151) and December 2005 (#152).
Frank

Thanks Frank. I'll look those two up...

[Jerry Olexa]

I read the articles in the 2 mags. Good helpful info. Realizing the dado is not a particularly strong joint but needing to use them in this case, I plan to strengthen with some hidden pocket screws and possibly biscuits. I'm still a little worried about wood movement later in the solid cherry pieces. Maybe I'm being overly cautious or thinking "overkill". Would love to hear you (the Experts) opinions on the possibility of later wood movement in this common but weak joint, Thanks...

[Peter Mc Mahon]

I would trim down the panels that you already have made and use them as panels in a frame and panel design. This way you don't have to worry about the exp. and con. of the panels. Peter

[Mike Johnson - Chicago]

Wood movement is always a tricky part of design...

Depending on what cut of wood you used to make the panels will determine how concerned you should be. Meaning center of the log flat sawn will have more movement than riftsawn which has more movement than quarter sawn.

I find a slab design needs to be accentuated to avoid looking like veneered particalboard...so I either go with through dovetails (solid 4 sides) or abandon for frame and panel.

The frame and panel direction is a great way to address movement, if you are not set on "the look" of the slab exterior.

Since you are using drawers and web frames...I wood choose the frame and panel :)

[tod evans]

I'm building a cherry bedside chest. The plan I am using calls for Cherry Ply sides dressed with wood stiles and moldings. I opted instead for solid cherry sides (glued panels ending up about 19X24). The carcass is formed when the web frames (spaced for the drawers)and top/bottom panels are glued into the dadoes I already routed in the side panels.
Now that I am not using Plywood, I'm concerned about wood movement. How would you connect the web frames, top and bottom panels to the side panels so the wood movement issue is covered? Or is this not an issue?? A later wood gap would be frustrating. Thanks, Guys..:confused:

jerry, i`m a little confused.....(what`s new!) you`re using solid wood to build your box correct? then you need to let in webframes for drawers? if i`m not off base yet?? the question is how to account for expansion of the case sides? i plow a shallow dado into the case sides to fit all but the front rail of the webframe, this is made long with a sliding dovetail cut into the end grain. this dovetail will hide the dado once it is let into the carcase. the rails slide free in their dados while the face of the webframe stiffens the assembly with the dovetail. the biggest issue facing you as i see it is mounting the cross grain applied mouldings....again sliding dovetails are one option, as are keyhole cuts in the back of the moulding to allow a screw to slide sight unseen.....hope i didn`t confound the issue???.....02 tod

[Howard Acheson]

I read the articles in the 2 mags. Good helpful info. Realizing the dado is not a particularly strong joint but needing to use them in this case, I plan to strengthen with some hidden pocket screws and possibly biscuits. I'm still a little worried about wood movement later in the solid cherry pieces. Maybe I'm being overly cautious or thinking "overkill". Would love to hear you (the Experts) opinions on the possibility of later wood movement in this common but weak joint, Thanks...

I'm a little confused. Are you planning to rigidly attach the frames to the solid wood side panels? If so, you are headed for trouble the with the first seasonal relative humidity change. You can not do anything that restricts the expansion/contraction in the width of the solid wood side panels. The frame must be engineered in a way that it can allow the side panels to move.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your reference to biscuits and pocket screws.

[Jerry Olexa]

[quote=Howard Acheson]I'm a little confused. Are you planning to rigidly attach the frames to the solid wood side panels? If so, you are headed for trouble the with the first seasonal relative humidity change. You can not do anything that restricts the expansion/contraction in the width of the solid wood side panels. The frame must be engineered in a way that it can allow the side panels to move.

Thanks Howard: I'm the "confuser" (not writing clearly).:) You are right. I'm attaching frames to the solid sides. Can't go frame and panel for the look I'm trying to get. The sides and top are already milled/glued and dadoed for the frames. I think I can do some kind of sliding slot on the frame to allow for some expansion and contraction of the side panels. If had to do over I might have done sliding dovetails. Thanks for your idea. I don't like using ply in projects but in this case, it would have eliminated this problem.:) I moved too quickly..

[Jerry Olexa]

Peter, Mike and Tod: Thanks for your thoughts and input. I was just dumb and moved too quick (see above post). I wanted the look of solid cherry, can't do frame and panel (great idea but not for this one) and milled/glued the panels before thinking (Duh). Anyway, to my regret, I'll rig up some sort of slide fastener in the frames to allow for the movement. The top will be solidly attached with sliding fasteners and I might use ply in the bottom horiz panel where it will be "hidden". Thanks much for your input and ideas. Not a perfect solution but another lesson learned (take your time and think). THANKS.

[tod evans]

jerry, you`ll be better served if you use solid for the bottom also, that way all four sides of your box will move about the same instead of having one stable side of your box.....02 tod

[Howard Acheson]

Jerry, a rather simple way to allow movement is to have the back frame member not be glued to the sides of the frame. What you do is use an unglued mortise and tenon joint for the back frame member to side members. Make your M&T joint loose enough to allow the side members to slide in and out with the movement of the rigidly attached rear member. You can attach the rear member with glue into the dado and/or a small block underneath.

[Jerry Olexa]

Tod and Howard: Thanks again. More good ideas and input. I think I can address this movement issue as I build the frames using expansion slot, non-glue some joints and yes, I will avoid ply on bottom panel. You guys have helped my hurried mistakes. Thank you..:D