Milling machine as a mortiser

[andrew whicker]

Hi all,

I don't look often, but when I do it seems there are absolutely no used mortising machines out there. Something I've always wanted (someday) was a knee mill. There's a place near me that has had a Cincinnati Contour Master for sale forever (years and years). They re build these machines and sell used.

Does anyone do this? Can I use a mortising tool w/ a knee mill?

Given how much more a milling machine can do than a mortising machine, it seems like the extra money spent would be worth it.. but it's an entirely different rabbit hole to go down as well. And I don't know anything about milling machines.

[Jim Becker]

AFAIK, you absolutely can do this. Mills cut wood just fine. Just keep in mind that they are not designed to be "speedy" because their main focus is on milling metal which has its own requirements that are most often different than what we can do with a material like wood. What you do gain is some pretty kewel precision in lateral movement of the cutter that's also repeatable. Brian Holcomb used that to good effect on a requirement for an angled slot on the bottom of a chair seat when we were playing with something a few years ago so I've seen this work. He has a nice Bridgeport available. ;)

[Kevin Jenness]

I think you would find a knee mill accurate but cumbersome for mortising due to the slow gear feed on the table. Perhaps one with motorized spindle and table feeds would be practical.

As with most specialized woodworking machinery finding a good used mortiser requires systematic and patient searching and probably will require shipping. Hollow chisel machines are most common but there are slot mortisers to be found, in fact there is a Bacci oscillating slot mortiser in MA and a manual Griggio machine in PA on Facebook now. The JDS Multirouter is still available new and is a capable slot mortiser. If you want lots of square holes in a hurry there's a swing chisel unit also in PA on Facebook and Mark Hennebury has a rebuilt Maka for sale.

A Festool Domino 700 is an excellent and versatile solution for mortises up to 14mm.

[Richard Coers]

A knee mill in a wood shop would quickly have the slides and threads gummed up with a goo from the way oil and sawdust mixing together. The spindle speed is slow for cutting wood. A Domino machine would take up way less space and cut the mortises 100% faster and tons lighter. The Pantorouter is another great option and it's $745 cheaper than the Multi-Router. Pantorouter also has incentives quite often. Then you get a machine to cut mortises and tenons, as well as finger joints and dovetails.

[Mark Hennebury]

There are lots of used mortiser for sale, depends on what you want, hollow chisel, round end or square end, automatic, manual, what size mortises, length, width, and depth, Single or double, haunched, angle end etc. three phase or single, bench-top or floor model, single head or multi-head, And what you budget is, and what productivity requirement's are. You can maybe cut 30 mortises an hour on a Mill or 600 per hour on an automatic slot mortiser.

I have a few machines available and maybe be able to help you if I know what you want.

[Wes Grass]

Are you thinking hollow chisel?

Dont know about a Cincinnati, but the quill feed on a Bridgeport isn't anywhere near as tough as a good drill press.

[Andrew Hughes]

Milling machine tooling or bits are kinda short aren’t they?
I have a couple bits I bought for cutting Brussels quadrant hinges. Maybe they can cut one inch deep

[Bruce Page]

A knee mill in a wood shop would quickly have the slides and threads gummed up with a goo from the way oil and sawdust mixing together. The spindle speed is slow for cutting wood.

Not entirely true. I have had a knee mill in my shop for 30 years with no noticeable wear on the ways. As long as the way-wipes are in decent condition you shouldn’t have any problems. I do most of my wood “milling” in the 700-1200 RPM range. It cuts just fine.

My bench has 30+ mortise & tenons, all cut on the mill. (see very old pics) I think a dedicated mortiser would be much faster, but mortise & tenons are certainly doable on the mill.

A conventional knee mill, if you know its capabilities, is very handy in a wood shop.
JMO

[Brian Holcombe]

I’ve occasionally used the mill for round end mortises, using dedicated machinery works a lot faster.

If you have good dust collection and your mill is oiled routinely, it’s fine. I have a few machines with dovetail ways, and they all require constant oiling to keep the ways clean.

You can also get way covers to minimize the issue.

[Warren Lake]

we machined Corion on a bridgeport it work very well. I used tons of high speed end mills in a makita router. 1 1/2 2" and even 3 cutting but that had too much vibration and dangerous as well. That was a plunge before i got the big porter cables and they would have been better. The milling machine blew me away to zero a bit then just count off a digital read out to .0005. Nice way to measure.

[Richard Daugird]

There once was a machine sold by Grizzley(?) called a Wood Mill, looked like a metal cutting milling machine with a hole in the middle of the table, and the RPM range was optimized to use either wood or metal. Google doesn't find it.

[Bill Dufour]

Theoretically a rotary broach could be used to drill square holes. i think they max out at 1.5 or 2.5 times width for depth. You would have to arrange a guide so it started square to the side of the workpiece.
Bill D

[andrew whicker]

so the tooling used for a mortiser is unique and not something that fits into drill chuck?

The quill on this Cincinnati has a 3.5" travel... so not very much. I haven't heard back from them on price yet, but I'm assuming it's an awkward price point the more I think about it. You can buy desktop milling machines (CNC) for a little over 10k where I think having a fully outfitted knee mill (DRO, X and Y feed motors) would probably be the same price.. right?

It just annoys me to have a tool that takes up as much space as a mortiser and it has only one function. AND it doesn't solve the male tenon problem at all. If I do get a setup for mortise and tenon, I'd love to have the Japanese tenoner, but the times I've looked they are no where to be found. I did find someone that made their own and has drawings available.

OTH, the more I think about how much it will (probably) cost to get a knee mill going, it will probably no longer make financial sense?

[Michael Schuch]

518323
The chisel for a mortise machine is square. The square portion of the chisel has to be held still while the round cutter in the center turns. You would have to have a special collar custom made to mount a morticing chisel on a mill.

I prefer a radial arm saw with a dado stack for cutting square corner tenons. A tenon jig on a table saw also does a nice job.

A mill is going to cut a mortice with rounded ends. This will require you to square the mortice with a chisel manually or cut a rounded tenon.

A router setup dedicated to cutting rounded mortices would be cheaper and take up less space than a knee mill. It would probably not be much slower than a mill either. I have seen somewhat complex router jigs to cut tenons with rounded ends.

There is a reason dedicated morticing machines exist... they are quick and efficient at making square sided mortices.

[andrew whicker]

I didn't know there were that many options. I assumed the old iron machines were hollow chisel type and manual.

[Bill Dufour]

The chisel housing has to be held at the top by a bracket that grip the quill and is big enough to clear the chuck. On a bridgeport the quill is about 3+3/8 " diameter. This is about double the quill diameter on most drill presses in a small shop.
Bill D

[andrew whicker]

ah yeah. I wasn't thinking about the mechanics, but the tool has to both turn the drill bit and hold the chisel. Sure. That makes sense.

[andrew whicker]

I think you would find a knee mill accurate but cumbersome for mortising due to the slow gear feed on the table. Perhaps one with motorized spindle and table feeds would be practical.

As with most specialized woodworking machinery finding a good used mortiser requires systematic and patient searching and probably will require shipping. Hollow chisel machines are most common but there are slot mortisers to be found, in fact there is a Bacci oscillating slot mortiser in MA and a manual Griggio machine in PA on Facebook now. The JDS Multirouter is still available new and is a capable slot mortiser. If you want lots of square holes in a hurry there's a swing chisel unit also in PA on Facebook and Mark Hennebury has a rebuilt Maka for sale.

A Festool Domino 700 is an excellent and versatile solution for mortises up to 14mm.

You East coasters get all the cool stuff!

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/396200549695703/

This looks nice. Is the price point ish for the old heavy machines?

[John TenEyck]

There's no need to make integral tenons unless you want to make exposed through tenons. Loose tenons work just as well for nearly every project and that eliminates the need for a chisel mortiser. A slot mortiser is easier in every way, and there's no chisel to sharpen; when the bit finally dulls just change it to a new one.

But if you really want to have integral tenons then buy or build one of my Horizontal Router Mortisers, or buy a MultiRouter, or Panto Router, or just use your tablesaw or RAS with a dado stack. The first three options allow you to make both the mortise and the integral tenon on the mating part, too, all with one compact machine.

To me, loose tenons are the fastest and easiest option for most joinery. Being able to cut the parts to final dimension before cutting the joinery assures accuracy of the assembly.

John

[Kevin Jenness]

Mortises come in two flavors. square and round end. Square holes can be made with hollow chisels or oscillating chisels. Hollow chisel mortisers use square tools making overlapping holes for variable length mortises and can have manual or power strokes. Oscillating chisel mortisers like the Maka are powered and very fast but require a separate specialized chisel for a specific mortise length. Both these types of mortisers are suitable for integral tenon work.

Round hole mortisers include power stroke oscillating machines like those made by Bacci and Balestrini, manual stationary slot mortisers which can do boring as well, router based machines like the Pantograph and Multirouter, and the Domino line. They are well suited to spline tenons, but there are round end tenoners ranging from heavy stationary machines to, again, the Multirouter and Pantograph. Spline tenon joinery is simple and versatile as a simple butt joint or coped stub tenon can be made very strong by this method. Integral round tenons are not really suited to coped joints used in millwork.

So there is a wide range available, you need to figure out your market and methodology and go from there. I have had an Italian slot mortiser for 30 years which has served well for a variety of work, but I also have a benchtop hollow chisel machine for sash work and through tenons and a Domino 500 for casework and rapid small scale frame work.

I should point out that you already have a capable heavy shaper that is well suited for making tenons using a sled or bolt-on sliding table. One thing about square integral tenons is that they usually need haunching so it is not a single operation.

[mike stenson]

They make attachments for drill presses to hold the chisels. I have one, I'd be happy to give away.

[Kevin Jenness]

You East coasters get all the cool stuff!

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/396200549695703/

This looks nice. Is the price point ish for the old heavy machines?

I don't know. You will have to look around to decide your ish factor. No doubt the choices available used are limited in your region but if you can buy what you need from a trustworthy seller shipping is an option. I would say that manual (actually pedal in this case) hollow chisel mortisers are the most common types to be found used and generally lower priced than other types but that would depend on model and condition. Slot mortisers are thin on the ground and oscillating chisel and slot mortisers more so and generally more costly and more complicated.

Honestly, you can't go too far wrong with a Domino 700 as a basic slot mortiser. It's useful for casework and millwork as well as furniture, it has a guarantee and if you don't like it you can resell it at a high price point.

[Brian Holcombe]

There's no need to make integral tenons unless you want to make exposed through tenons. Loose tenons work just as well for nearly every project and that eliminates the need for a chisel mortiser. A slot mortiser is easier in every way, and there's no chisel to sharpen; when the bit finally dulls just change it to a new one.

But if you really want to have integral tenons then buy or build one of my Horizontal Router Mortisers, or buy a MultiRouter, or Panto Router, or just use your tablesaw or RAS with a dado stack. The first three options allow you to make both the mortise and the integral tenon on the mating part, too, all with one compact machine.

To me, loose tenons are the fastest and easiest option for most joinery. Being able to cut the parts to final dimension before cutting the joinery assures accuracy of the assembly.

John

This is not quite accurate in my experience. I cut very accurate mortises on the chisel mortiser in 10-15 seconds. Unlike a router, I'm not anywhere near as limited on sizing, so if I'm cutting long or deep mortises I have no trouble. Recently I cut mortises 1.5" wide, 4.5" deep, 6" long with a chisel mortiser. Probably two minutes each since I had to move the position one time.

For furniture sized work I can cut perfect square end mortises with the Maka in about 4-5 seconds each.

Cutting deep mortises with a router bit on an extension takes a while, I pocket out door hardware with a router bit on an extension made by Guhdo, it's a beautiful setup but I hate it by comparison to easy, low stress cutting on a chisel mortiser.

Tenons on a shaper are very, very fast.

[Mark Hennebury]

Balestrini tenoner, twin table, automatic continuous operation, cuts round end tenons, scribes shoulders, chamfers tenon. Infinitely variable length, thickness and radius. straight, angled and compound angles. mortise length up to 100mm plus the thickness, thickness up to 30mm, depth to 80mm. they can also cut round dowels. If i recall the maximum output was either 600 or 900 per hour. I never really counted, but I cut thousand of tenons for tables and chairs on these machines, and the are excellent, along with the twin table mortiser

.518337518338 518339518342 518340 518341



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfP4wVHmE20

[John TenEyck]

This is not quite accurate in my experience. I cut very accurate mortises on the chisel mortiser in 10-15 seconds. Unlike a router, I'm not anywhere near as limited on sizing, so if I'm cutting long or deep mortises I have no trouble. Recently I cut mortises 1.5" wide, 4.5" deep, 6" long with a chisel mortiser. Probably two minutes each since I had to move the position one time.

For furniture sized work I can cut perfect square end mortises with the Maka in about 4-5 seconds each.

Cutting deep mortises with a router bit on an extension takes a while, I pocket out door hardware with a router bit on an extension made by Guhdo, it's a beautiful setup but I hate it by comparison to easy, low stress cutting on a chisel mortiser.

Tenons on a shaper are very, very fast.

I suspect your equipment is better than most, Brian. I read all the time on here about problems people have with chisel mortisers. Most hobbiests have bench top units, which seem pretty light duty to me for the job they are asked to do. And then there's the tooling. Sharpening chisels and augers, adjust the bit gap, on and on. And how many people have a Maka? I didn't even know what one was until I read it about it on here. I'm sure tenons are quickly made on a shaper, once it's setup to do so, but how many hobbiests have one? And then there's the issue of space. All these machines take up space, space hobbiests often don't have.

I agree that mortises beyond about 2-1/2 - 3" deep become difficult with a router, but how often for furniture making is that needed? The only time I've had to go that deep was for making exterior doors. And for furniture making, mortise depth of 3 - 4 times the width seems plenty adequate to me. Most furniture making uses mortises less than 2-1/2" deep, and routers do that easily, quickly, and with no clean up required. Similarly, I can't remember the last time I actually needed to make a mortise wider than 1/2". If I feel the need for more glue area/strength, it's easy to make two mortises, side by side. Folks who own Dominoes follow this strategy.

For specialized work I can see the advantage of a quality chisel or other deep mortiser. For furniture work I prefer loose tenons cut with a router or slot mortiser. It's just so straightforward, simple, space efficient, and low-cost.

I guess we look at it differently, and that's fine.

John

[Warren Lake]

had to do mortises with a drill press at first. 1/2" mortises in birdseye pushing back. Not ideal but the work got done. The chain on the robinson is fast.

[Richard Daugird]

How about a Shaper Origin handheld 3D router? Doesn't take up much space and does A LOT of different tasks.

[Chris Parks]

I had a mate who did all his dovetailing on a Bridgeport mill.

[Brian Holcombe]

I suspect your equipment is better than most, Brian. I read all the time on here about problems people have with chisel mortisers. Most hobbiests have bench top units, which seem pretty light duty to me for the job they are asked to do. And then there's the tooling. Sharpening chisels and augers, adjust the bit gap, on and on. And how many people have a Maka? I didn't even know what one was until I read it about it on here. I'm sure tenons are quickly made on a shaper, once it's setup to do so, but how many hobbiests have one? And then there's the issue of space. All these machines take up space, space hobbiests often don't have.

I agree that mortises beyond about 2-1/2 - 3" deep become difficult with a router, but how often for furniture making is that needed? The only time I've had to go that deep was for making exterior doors. And for furniture making, mortise depth of 3 - 4 times the width seems plenty adequate to me. Most furniture making uses mortises less than 2-1/2" deep, and routers do that easily, quickly, and with no clean up required. Similarly, I can't remember the last time I actually needed to make a mortise wider than 1/2". If I feel the need for more glue area/strength, it's easy to make two mortises, side by side. Folks who own Dominoes follow this strategy.

For specialized work I can see the advantage of a quality chisel or other deep mortiser. For furniture work I prefer loose tenons cut with a router or slot mortiser. It's just so straightforward, simple, space efficient, and low-cost.

I guess we look at it differently, and that's fine.

John

Bench top units are not very good.

As far as sharpening chisels goes, it’s pretty easy and I cut a lot of mortises between sharpenings and the setup is quick.

I cut deep mortises for tables, beds and doors pretty routinely.

[Chris Parks]

Another way to do mortises is to use a Domino and multiple cuts to make one mortise. Derek Cohen has used this method and it works well for loose tenon joinery.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Chris. I will add that my methods are best suited to someone like myself, who lacks the space for dedicated machines, and even if there was this, it would be difficult to get the budget past my wife! I can justify decent-ish tools as do build a fair amount of furniture, but nothing like someone with an eye on selling. Certainly nothing like the demands of a professional such as Brian or Mark.

For mortising, I turned to mortise chisels in the past, but these days it is easier to use machines to a larger extent. This means either a router in a fixture ...

https://i.postimg.cc/431Yf9fX/21a.jpg

More recently I have been using the Domino DF500 and custom loose tenons using a simple positioner ...

https://i.postimg.cc/NFs4p9nc/2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/y6jnWjJY/3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The limitation here is that the maximum depth is 28mm ..

https://i.postimg.cc/vHmhnn97/4.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

New version of the positioning tool (for 6, 8, 10mm) ....

https://i.postimg.cc/HsX2DZmF/4.jpg

On curved chair legs ...

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/DiningCarverChairs5_html_4cff612f.jpg

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/10MoreOnTheArmJigsaw_html_m4aa70718.jpg

If square-ended mortises are required, then use a hollow chisel to square them. Easy to sharpen and quick to work ...

https://i.postimg.cc/gj2Vv9wc/28.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Like Andrew, the idea of a milling machine for mortising has crossed my mind a few times. I have tried a bench top mortiser (I was given), and it lasted 5 minutes before giving it back - simply unable to cope with the hard woods I use. In any event, I really did not wish to add anther machine.

The question I now have is how well my Nova Voyager drill press would fare using end mill bits? Again, the one's I have are limited in depth of cut (around 25mm). Are there longer makes you can suggest? I would focus on 10mm, 8mm, 6mm mortises. Why this drill press? Well it would be fast to set up (with added cross slide vise), have plenty of grunt (2 h.p), negligible run out, and the ideal speed setting is there to be dialled in. But ... will the morse taper for the chuck be capable of withstanding the lateral forces? If not, is there an alternate chuck which could be used? The router and the Domino move to cut, and these lateral forces are not issues then (I assume).

Regards from Perth (currently in Wellington, New Zealand)

Derek

[Warren Lake]

I used a General drill press with attachment for a while. We didnt have the benefit of Jack who showed why chisels need attention over how they come. I took the plastic knob off one handle and put a bar from a bar clamp on for more leverage. Id say drill presses are not meant for the pressure i put on them or at least that one with a bit that could have been better. I tortured it for sure but it paid for a floor model mortiser.

[Chris Parks]

The question I now have is how well my Nova Voyager drill press would fare using end mill bits? Again, the one's I have are limited in depth of cut (around 25mm). Are there longer makes you can suggest? I would focus on 10mm, 8mm, 6mm mortises. Why this drill press? Well it would be fast to set up (with added cross slide vise), have plenty of grunt (2 h.p), negligible run out, and the ideal speed setting is there to be dialled in. But ... will the morse taper for the chuck be capable of withstanding the lateral forces? If not, is there an alternate chuck which could be used? The router and the Domino move to cut, and these lateral forces are not issues then (I assume).

Regards from Perth (currently in Wellington, New Zealand)

Derek

Don't use a drill press if you value it and it cost a lot of money. DP's do not like lateral loads and can easily be damaged doing it, I have not personally seen it happen but the general consensus is don't do it. Using an xy table in that manner just applies the load in a different way. I made an xy table with DRO's on both axis and that is very handy but I would not try putting lateral loads on it as some users do.

[Derek Cohen]

Chris, that is my concern. I think the quill is strong enough, but the morse taper is not designed for lateral forces, and will drop out. At the same time I wonder if technique can overcome this - for example, plunging down along the mortice, and only cleaning up when there is minimal material to remove?

Note that I am not considering the drill press as a mill (such as levelling metals), but rather to "mill", that is, clean out the wooden waste in mortises.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Carl Beckett]

I use the mill on wood from time to time. Works quite fine. (also use the metal lathe with wood from time to time). The limitation is the vertical work and since a lot of mortising is on the end of a piece it may be limiting in this.

The sawdust does soak up the way oil - I just clean up and reoil afterwards. Not a production shop so am not worried about wear.

[Brian Holcombe]

Howdy Derek, I wouldn’t do it with the drill press, the Morse taper is one thing but the taper into the top of the chuck is also very short. Drill chucks also complain a lot about being used in this fashion.

[andrew whicker]

Balestrini tenoner, twin table, automatic continuous operation, cuts round end tenons, scribes shoulders, chamfers tenon. Infinitely variable length, thickness and radius. straight, angled and compound angles. mortise length up to 100mm plus the thickness, thickness up to 30mm, depth to 80mm. they can also cut round dowels. If i recall the maximum output was either 600 or 900 per hour. I never really counted, but I cut thousand of tenons for tables and chairs on these machines, and the are excellent, along with the twin table mortiser





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfP4wVHmE20

I've definitely seen those on the used market. Very cool machinery. I've never much liked rounded slots and I certainly don't have enough work to justify a "Production machine" yet... If I were to get a machine that falls into this sort of category, I'd be looking for a dovetail machine to make baltic birch drawer boxes. The vendors that make boxes here have a poor finish quality to them so there could be a market for me.

[andrew whicker]

so the tooling used for a mortiser is unique and not something that fits into drill chuck?

The quill on this Cincinnati has a 3.5" travel... so not very much. I haven't heard back from them on price yet, but I'm assuming it's an awkward price point the more I think about it. You can buy desktop milling machines (CNC) for a little over 10k where I think having a fully outfitted knee mill (DRO, X and Y feed motors) would probably be the same price.. right?

It just annoys me to have a tool that takes up as much space as a mortiser and it has only one function. AND it doesn't solve the male tenon problem at all. If I do get a setup for mortise and tenon, I'd love to have the Japanese tenoner, but the times I've looked they are no where to be found. I did find someone that made their own and has drawings available.

OTH, the more I think about how much it will (probably) cost to get a knee mill going, it will probably no longer make financial sense?

This machine goes for 3k.. but after this discussion this idea may be dead in the water anyway. (http://www.machineryconsultants.com/used-machines/details/cincinnati-contour-master-milling-machine)

[John TenEyck]

Derek, you are a gifted builder of jigs. You should build one of my horizontal router mortisers. It will change your way of woodworking with regards to mortising, and so much more.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczMCr8_KgjX_Y7TejOTkzn4xZqNAgl2eagC4aIzEgKSbUW JBVpTxvAIbDBo6yOoBQAVmWtu7CYo8j95nt_VpGaLPWLWwIsMG F-yxcWUjp5dZqcZskN6dFw8Lz-WbujfqFAd7qpQlRGOHiobr5bxwdAgaLw=w1180-h885-s-no?authuser=1


It doesn't take up much space (24 x 18 x 16") and is easily moved and stored. I built my first one out of MDF for about $50, so it fits nearly any budget. I've seen your machines, however, so I know your budget isn't that tight. I have a SketchUp model on my webpage of the original model, still being used by a friend nearly 15 years later. But it doesn't take much to see what I did with the new one. The cleverest bit, is the tiltable table on my new model. It makes mortising, including compound angles, on chair parts much easier, an added benefit you might be interested in.

You can learn more about it at my webpage. https://sites.google.com/view/jteneyck-woodworker/current-projects/horizontal-router-mortiser?authuser=1
For anyone who doesn't use SketchUp, I can send you a set of PDF files showing all the major parts, with dimensions.

Derek, you can buy spiral upcut endmills in really long lengths, even 6" with a 3" depth of cut. However, they are not recommended for handheld routers or router tables. I've never tried one in my HRM because I've never thought I needed mortises that deep. I do, however, use bits up to 4" long with a 2" cutting length, which allows me to cut mortises 2-1/2" deep. Here's a link to one such bit:
https://bitsbits.com/product/540-srf500-up-cut/

John

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Andrew, These machines were designed primarily for chairs. The tenonner can do square end tenons up to 30mm thick x100 long x 80mm deep.

Like warren mentioned chain mortisers are great for deep slots like doors.

There is another mortising machine called an Alternax made by Parveau, which is a pretty cool machine.

Maka swing chisel type are probably the most versatile. Sm series cut up to 4" deep. The larger machines up to 5" deep

The first photo on the left below show single mortises cut with a Maka SM 6, The other two photos shows mortises cut with double chisel sets.

The video is of a Maka sm6pII it's quick and clean. don't blink.

518364 518365 518366
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJUJ796jxls


I've definitely seen those on the used market. Very cool machinery. I've never much liked rounded slots and I certainly don't have enough work to justify a "Production machine" yet... If I were to get a machine that falls into this sort of category, I'd be looking for a dovetail machine to make baltic birch drawer boxes. The vendors that make boxes here have a poor finish quality to them so there could be a market for me.

[Warren Lake]

those machines are amazing Mark. Fast and clean. I guess the bottom left has a bit of a round to it which is fine. Derek here is what you were asking I think and side bar says there are two type of end mills and one type plunges. I used tons of end mills and all of them plunged but i was using them running off the sides for the most part in a router.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZN1bT9RicI

[Bruce Page]

Chris, that is my concern. I think the quill is strong enough, but the morse taper is not designed for lateral forces, and will drop out.
Regards from Perth

Derek

I had a MT chuck fall out of the quill while side milling on a DP. It got very exciting very quickly.

[stephen thomas]

I have had a knee mill in my shop for 30 years with no noticeable wear on the ways.

My experience as well.


I think a dedicated mortiser would be much faster, but mortise & tenons are certainly doable on the mill.

Agreed. My Greenlee is so much faster, easier to set up, and more capable when the chisels get big, than the SB turret mill (similar to BP, only made by South Bend)
As someone posted, if the idea is to add HC capability, the quill feed on most mills is wimpier than a good DP. Also, does the OP's Cincinnati even have quill feed? (I did not look up the model, but many large mills in that class did not have quill feeds.) If the notion is simply to mill/route mortises, then the mill will work OK. it is just slow, messy, and inefficient.


A conventional knee mill, if you know its capabilities, is very handy in a wood shop.

Everyone should have one, to make tooling, fixtures, specialty hardware, etc, etc.


Theoretically a rotary broach could be used to drill square holes

Hmmm.... i use a couple often enough for squares and hexes in steel or other metals.
Since you have to drill a very precise ratio starting hole, i think in wood just plunging a chisel straight through might be as effective.
AS you note, they will spiral as the depth-to-width ratio increases.

Then there is the Watts drill..... :)

I think Maka mortisers, or HC are the most convenient for most woodworking joinery.
Followed at a distance by the various versions of oscillating travel router bit mortisers.
I would not be without HC capability and have chisels up to about 1-1/2" square; though never used larger than 1" square.

Unfortunately, HC tooling can add up in cost if you can't source it surplus NOS or used. Router bits don't offer the same depths, certainly not in sizes under 1/2"; but are cheaper.

Can we talk about import machines on this site?
I'm not a big fan, but in tool deserts like the OP's Utah, they can be a saving option for 1/2" & under mortises.

[Jim Becker]

Can we talk about import machines on this site?


Almost every machine we talk about that isn't "old iron" is imported. This is also a global forum site and while most folks here are in North America, many other parts of the world are represented. You just cannot promote any product or service you have "skin in the game on".

[Wes Grass]

Morse taper ER collet chuck. Better runout and rigidity.

Drill presses don't have the right bearings to mill with, so plunge only as already noted.

That also means you don't need screws to feed the work. A 'simple' lever actuated slide of some sort is much faster than cranking.

[Clint Baxter]

Chris, that is my concern. I think the quill is strong enough, but the morse taper is not designed for lateral forces, and will drop out. At the same time I wonder if technique can overcome this - for example, plunging down along the mortice, and only cleaning up when there is minimal material to remove?

Note that I am not considering the drill press as a mill (such as levelling metals), but rather to "mill", that is, clean out the wooden waste in mortises.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, have you considered getting the slot mortising attachment for the Hammer A3-31? A possible solution for what you're trying to do.

Clint

[Wes Grass]

Oh, and there are milling machines with Morse taper spindles. They use a drawbar, no tang.

[Bill Dufour]

Oh, and there are milling machines with Morse taper spindles. They use a drawbar, no tang.
My Jet Mini mill is mt3 with a drawbar. Probably made around 1976.
BillD

[Wes Grass]

Hopefully, they have a cap on the spindle retaining the drawbar ... so unscrewing it pops the tool from the spindle.

Otherwise, it's 'tapping' on it with a hammer ... which *destroys* bearings long term.

[Bill Dufour]

AFAIK you have to make your own nut cage etc to make it a self ejecting drawbar. R8 tends to fall out on its own. Most other milling taper sare much more angled and tend to fall out on their own. Except for the extinct B+S taper.
Full size mills can have the taper reground to something better in some cases.
Bill D

[Bruce Page]

My Lagun mill uses R8 collets. That, and every Bridgeport I have ever run (dozens of them) that used R8 collets required a tap on the drawbar to break the collet free.

[Bob Vaughan]

For furniture sized work I can cut perfect square end mortises with the Maka in about 4-5 seconds each

I've rebuilt a few of those in years past and know this to be quite true. It just has to be seen to be believed. With a longer bit for deep mortises, the time might extend to 5-7 seconds. Might.

A full size mill still isn't a good woodworking machine except for fussy little precision details and even then, dust collection is a must. I've tried it for mortises once. It's rather slow and the time it takes to make the tenon round isn't worth the trouble.

519689

[Joe Calhoon]

Agree that a mill is useful for some odd woodworking tasks but would not want it for a mortiser. In my works I have a Maka and a nice vintage HC. It’s a good combination for the work I do. The HC is good for one off work and small mortises. The Maka flys on production jobs.

[Wes Grass]

No flanged drawbar and retaining nut I could find for the Max' V-10. He bought one of the oddball collets for the lathe spindle, and then made an adapter nose for 6-K collets. I kinda remember he had to grind a bit of clearance in the spindle as well.

And replaced most of the die-cast handwheels with cast iron. There's no way I could estimate the number of bent and machined brass wires we made for HP. Some sort of RF 'mixer. Black magic...

I bought a 40 taper Lagun. Mod'd the drawbar and drive keys to use my CAT holders. And then mod'd an R-8 right angle head to drive with the 'Cat' spindle.

[Wes Grass]

R-8 .. a couple brand new mills with brand new collets would pop right out. Given some use, maybe with people not keeping them perfectly clean... they get tiny dimples in the taper. And then they need the tap.

The taper angle, 8deg?, the Sin/Cos/Tan is the coefficient of friction for steel on steel?

[Wes Grass]

Duh, it's the Clausing 8520 that has the collar to eject the collets, MT 2.

[stephen thomas]

He bought one of the oddball collets for the lathe spindle, and then made an adapter nose for 6-K collets.

That was a strange choice.
AFAIK, 6K only fits the South Bend 10K ("light 10" ") lathe, and maybe some oddball indexer or dividing head ISTR. Really, nearly nothing but the 10K lathes, and people with a 10K will pay for them. It is also a weird collet with a slot in the side of one jaw to slide over/engage a roll pin sideways through the nose taper. (rather than the stem/shank)

It sounds like there may have been enough room to adapt a slightly more common 4c, or even maybe the cheap and ubiquitous 5c system?

[Wes Grass]

Maximat V-10. It's rather puny. No way a 5c could be used.

Swapping pieces out on my Graziano pushed me to a D1-4 spindle mounted collet chuck. Going thru the motions of mounting the lever collet closer for a one off was just dumb.

[Wes Grass]

Ummm, yeah ...

A drive pin in the taper of the collet nose vs a key in the cylindrical body, and sometimes a remnant of milling it left in the thread, ala 5c.

2 piece adapter he made, hardened and then ground in place on the spindle.

Far more ambitious than I'd ever be ... but ... then there's the stuff my grandfather left behind. Drill press, looks like a couple castings and the rest from barstock? And a bench vise most likely from solid bar. Doesn't clamp very well. The fit between the jaw and body is too tight. I remember my dad demonstrating with a 1/2" bar, flipping the handle to lock it and it bounced back open.

[johnny means]

We use a Bridgeport everyday in the shop for wood and metal and plastics. Gumming up is absolutely not a problem, they are made to operate in rather filthy conditions. Also, the speed range is perfectly adequate for wood, especially for larger cutters, which require lower speeds anyway.