Drill w/guide or router?

[Rich Engelhardt]

Here's one I've been going over for the last 6 months.

We have sliding pocket doors that separate our dining room and our family room. There are two of them 30 inches wide and they meet in the middle to form one 60 inch opening when open and a solid "wall" when closed.

When they are open, they disappear nice and flat into the walls.

When they are closed, they meet in the middle - and - slowly open up as they sit and drift away from each other.

I bought some rare earth magnets that are 3/4" in diameter and grip together with a whole bunch of force. I can't pull them apart without having to pry them.
One in each door should be more than enough. If it isn't. I'll just add another set & so on. I have 6 individual magnets so I'm pretty sure I have enough.

Which brings me to - I have to drill holes in the edges of the doors. I have a Milescraft Drill Mate and a plunge router mounted on one of Tamar's trim router bases to choose from. I can also whip up a guide of some kind on the drill press.
For the router jig - I can add some wider pieces to it and make some side pieces like the Festool jig in this thread:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?308412-Festool-Mortise-Jig

Since depth and location on the door are pretty critical, I'm leaning towards the plunge router.

I'm open to anything though.

Anything that can be done while the doors are in place that is. I can't take them down to work on them. My wife would cut 1/2 of my beard, hair and moustache off if I did that - - even if it worked...

[Zachary Hoyt]

I would just use a Forstner bit in a cordless drill on the low setting, after poking a hole in the exact starting location. To me marking the holes to line up exactly would seem harder than drilling them.

[Jimmy Harris]

I'd do whatever you feel most comfortable with.

Personally, I would just make a doweling jig. I can't recall seeing a premade one for 3/4" dowels. I know I've looked before for a project once, but probably not that hard. Anyway, I just made mine out of scrap wood, drilled the hole on the drill press, and attached two boards to either side to keep the center alignment. On this one, I put some brass inserts (brass pipe with 3/4" inside diameter) in them, but I was making a lot of holes. I've made other jigs and skipped the inserts, which work fine if you're not drilling a bunch of holes, which will eventually wear out the walls and can cause your holes to become angled. Then put some tape on your bit to mark the correct depth and get to it!

The good thing about something like this is you're probably going to have to glue it in, and probably with some kid of epoxy. So, if you're a little too deep or slightly crooked or whatever, you can reposition it and let the epoxy fill in to fix your mistakes and still get it aligned and looking good.

Two words of advice. One, make sure you get the magnets faced right, so they attract and don't repel. That's an easy mistake to make while you've got other things going on. And two, start off by taping a pair of magnets to your doors to see if a single pair is enough, or too much. Just a dry run before you commit to anything. You may need to offset them to reduce the strength, or add a second or third set to increase them. And you might find you need them in specific area to work best. I have a magnetic catch on one of my doors to hold it open (unloading groceries), and when I first set it up, a single magnet held with too much force to comfortably close the door. So I had to offset it slightly, so it doesn't hold as strongly.

[Edward Weber]

It may end up being a magnet on one door and a plain plate or washer on the other.
I think a forstener bit is the easiest way to go. Drill one door and use a dowel center in a washer for marking the opposing door. I would also use blue tape on the entire area to be worked on, makes for easy marking and cleanup.

[Cameron Wood]

Layout on the doors on masking tape, drill as described above, Forstner or Speedbore (are these still made?) bit, glue with a dab of polyurethane glue after scuffing the magnets with sandpaper.

Plunge router sounds complicated and risky for this.

[Jamie Buxton]

I use magnets on doors quite a bit. The important thing is that the magnets must touch. A gap drastically reduces the force. So for your job, a good depth stop is essential. My best depth stop is on my plunge router.

[Michael Burnside]

It may end up being a magnet on one door and a plain plate or washer on the other.
I think a forstener bit is the easiest way to go. Drill one door and use a dowel center in a washer for marking the opposing door. I would also use blue tape on the entire area to be worked on, makes for easy marking and cleanup.

This is exactly what I would do as well.

[Kent A Bathurst]

This is exactly what I would do as well.

I've been successful with flathead screws. Like, say, a #12. If that won't hold, then march up the scale - 14, 16. Also - by definition, these are adjustable for depth. "Over-sink" it, and back it out until the attraction works.

This is for when I don' want a "bang" on closing - rather, just enough to hold position

[Rod Sheridan]

Forstner bit in a hand held drill is all you need, put masking tape on both doors so you put layout lines on with a square and pencil, mark a Center point with an awl and drill through the tape, super easy

Regards, Rod

[Ralph Okonieski]

Make a jig to drill straight. Use a short piece of 2x4, use a forstner bit to drill through, then cut the 2x4 to center the hole and add fence to each side . This should then center the hole, provide a relatively straight guide. With a handheld drill, it should be fairly clear if the angle gets off perpendicular. Of course, the steps could be done differently to meet the tools you have on hand.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I think a jig will not work well with a Forstner bit because of how much smaller the shank is than the cutting head, but maybe there is a way I have not thought of.

[Bill Dufour]

I would use a drill in a countersink cage. Less weight then a router and depth set to within 1/1000". This job is really what they are designed for. Only problem will be drill diameter is limited.
I would plane a hunk of wood to door thickness and drill a guide hole in it. nail little bit of plywood on both sides and use it like a doweling jig. You can use. a story pole off the ground or ceiling to locate it.
Bill D
BilL D

[Rich Engelhardt]

I use magnets on doors quite a bit. The important thing is that the magnets must touch. A gap drastically reduces the force. So for your job, a good depth stop is essential. My best depth stop is on my plunge router.
Exactly my conundrum.

[Bill Dufour]

A countersink cage is accurate to 1/1000" per click. So far better then most wworking machines. It is designed to sink countersinked fasteners dead flush to an aircrafts skin for aerodynamic reasons. Just run it with a regular electric drill motor no need to run out and buy a pancake drill or anything special.
Bill D
https://www.browntool.com/Listview/tabid/344/CategoryID/62/Level/a/ProductID/3782/Default.aspx

[Doug Garson]

Methinks you and many of the posters are overthinking this. Typical magnets are about 1/8" thick, no need for a drill guide or jig to keep the hole perpendicular to the edge of the door. Magnets used in this application don't need to be located within a few thousands of an inch. Mark both doors, blue tape is a good idea and center punch matching locations. Drill using a Forstner bit to approximately the required depth, check and adjust the drilling angle if the hole isn't perfectly square. Check the depth and drill further if required, if you drill too far you can use thickened epoxy or washers to make up the required depth. Note that magnets power is increased if they are backed by a steel disc, some magnets come with steel cup which you attach with a screw thru a tapered hole or you can just just a flat washer.

[Cameron Wood]

A countersink cage is accurate to 1/1000" per click. So far better then most wworking machines. It is designed to sink countersinked fasteners dead flush to an aircrafts skin for aerodynamic reasons. Just run it with a regular electric drill motor no need to run out and buy a pancake drill or anything special.
Bill D
https://www.browntool.com/Listview/tabid/344/CategoryID/62/Level/a/ProductID/3782/Default.aspx


That would be just the thing except it doesn't make a flat- bottom hole, can't do 3/4", and costs $60 plus shipping. :cool:

[Bill Dufour]

I would buy used unless you are doing thousands per day. I think a 1/4" cage maxes out at 3/4 " diameter rivet shaver. Or go up to a 3/8 size cage.
I guess I should have mentioned you do not have to use only a countersink bit. That would make a wood router not very useful if you could not change bit types.
I bought a long stroke one for drilling shelf pin holes with 1/4" diameter threaded drills. A rivet shaver is nice for cutting plugs flush with the wood surface. I leave it up about 5/1000 and sand it flush to reduce tearout.
Bill D.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144863959301?itmmeta=01HV5P5T2SSE8Z0JD81HWWM698&hash=item21ba909905:g:rUQAAOSwRhxjoMic&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4DGqkd%2B%2FAmsHci670KEXrhxKj X9GcKD3gokYlY4tWJyMCnxYAHlpHFxSG3%2FL0eMw7woZg62R2 Ie8caIs577XVDtVSQbddax3r4S5D%2FZIW4Qb6kYdi%2BPjs99 mmLAIpL6IsPGVK6t9FCQYwJRO%2B8lrDk3Eb3KFGHuI7fUBVrN wojSDgLIS6s5mXFxa1jCjfYFHzq7T7r9CrFEU0Mtw9TpaLb%2F AST3N%2FPx8qbJTucN8cI0MM5xDVjZDpnIb%2FIcbfX%2BTOMB d2CePO0C0IdjCCEHHHBtStlNDs4mij3uqj3U62d3q%7Ctkp%3A Bk9SR7qhl7bZYw

[Bill Dufour]

That would be just the thing except it doesn't make a flat- bottom hole, can't do 3/4", and costs $60 plus shipping. :cool:
Costs less then buying a router and bit.
Bill D

[George Bokros]

What is the reason the doors drift apart? If the tracks are level they should not move on their own. Sounds to me like there is something wrong with the installation of the doors. I have had several pocket doors including one I installed myself and they have never moved from either the closed or open position.

[Bill Dufour]

Shoot some sawdust and sand into the bearings and it will not drift around.
Bill D

[Rich Engelhardt]

George - I think they drift apart simply because there is air movement.
When I say drift, I'm only talking about a very small amount also.
What make is so pronounced is that the dining room side is dark due to there being now windows and the family room is very bright because it has a lot of glass.

What we refer to as our family room - is more like an enclosed porch we had the builder bump out on the backside of the house. It's about the same width and depth as a sliding door and a half.

Bill - interesting devices. I'll have to look into them more. The cost isn't that important - as long as I can find other uses on other projects.

[Bill Dufour]

A pancake or porkchop drill attachment allows me to reach into an electrical box and drill holes sideways into the studs for mounting screws. It uses the same 1/4-28 threaded drills, countersinks and rivet shavers a regular micro sink cage uses. I install using hex drive sheet metal screws driven by a 1/4" air ratchet.
Bill D

[Derek Cohen]

What I would do is sink the magnet first. Just use a correctly sized forstner for the magnet, just deep enough. This is easy to do free hand.

Then use a dowel centre point to find the matching position on the facing jamb. Simply use the magnet to hold the point facing the opposite side.

I connect chair aims this way ...

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/11Arms1_html_m6d35e4d5.jpg

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/11Arms1_html_m3538e5db.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rich Engelhardt]

Derek - Thank you! Great idea.
I don't have the dowel points - but - I can get some easy enough.

[George Yetka]

I would say you arent going too deep so a forstner bit freehand as long as holes are marked out properly and marked with an awl will work well. the more critical thing would be to make sure magnets are sized right and glued in properly.

[Michael Burnside]

Derek - Thank you! Great idea.
I don't have the dowel points - but - I can get some easy enough.

This is exactly what Edward and I were both suggesting as well.

[Doug Garson]

Derek - Thank you! Great idea.
I don't have the dowel points - but - I can get some easy enough.
Dowel points are necessary if high accuracy is required in matching the holes when using dowels but not in the case of matching the holes for magnets. I think you should be able to lay out the hole locations with adequate accuracy with just some painter's tape, a T square and center punch.

[Warren Lake]

finishing nails, snip them off close, push your two parts together.

[Doug Garson]

finishing nails, snip them off close, push your two parts together.
Great idea and probably less work than laying out the holes as I described.

[Jamie Buxton]

Rich --
Say you get the magnets perfectly mounted on the doors. That is, you've got the doors sticking together so tightly that "I can't pull them apart without having to pry them". Do you have a plan for opening the doors?

[Rich Engelhardt]

This is exactly what Edward and I were both suggesting as well.
Yes - I'm sorry I didn't mention that along with Derek. Thanks to both of you also for the suggestion.

Derek's big giant screen filling pictures, showing the points being used in thicker wood just brought the idea home.

When I earlier saw the mention, my mind just saw points being used to mark 3/4" boards.


Warren really cut through a lot of layout work though and a lot of fun time making my own 3/4" pins.

I think if I just hammer a 5/8" 18ga brad nail in one side and bring the doors together that should do it for layout.

[Tom Bender]

Edward's suggestion seems like the way to go, a magnet on one side only and a washer on the other. You can reduce the grip and the snapping noise by setting the washer deeper or bring it forward with another washer. This is not possible with two epoxied in magnets. Get maximum grip by leaving the washers a little loose so they can align with the magnet. Countersink the hole in the front washer.

Don't put the magnets at the top or bottom, that will make opening wonky. Put them around the height of the pulls. I say them but hopefully just one.

[Rich Engelhardt]

There's little pop out pulls on the doors - where the latch would be on a door with a regular knob and latch.
I'm planning on locating the magnets a little above those - thinking that in that already "busy" location, the extra hardware will just look like it belongs there.

The magnets themselves are 3/4" in diameter and roughly 3/8" tall. They have a hole in the center for a screw.
I plan to glue and screw (with brass screws) them into the hole I make.

I have an old set of bifold doors I plan to practice on when the weather warms up enough for me to go outside.
I'm going to take the hardware off them so I can make a hole in both and test the attraction of the magnets I bought.
I'm hoping I can get by with one magnet on one and a washer on the other. If not, then a magnet in each door.

I really don't want to have to resort to putting magnets in more than one location on the doors - like middle and top.

[Patty Hann]

Someone posted a comment about making certain the magnets touch each other to get maximum pull force.
From what I have read you don't want the magnets touching each other (or the magnet touching the steel disc if you are only using one) if they are going to be joined and pulled apart a lot.
Magnets can be damaged when hitting hard surfaces.

https://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=breaking-magnets (https://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=breaking-magnets)

Yes, the attractive force will be reduced, but that can be compensated by using a slightly stronger magnet.
If you are using magnets to hold something more or less "permanently" in place, then actual contact is not a problem as there is not constant "hitting".
So you need to recess the magnet just a little maybe a quarter or at most a .5mm

In making my 2.5 inch magports I recessed the magnets about a .25mm

[Doug Garson]

If the magnets have center holes for screws I would just use screws, no glue. Much easier to adjust the depth to get it just right. Set them a few thou below the surface so they don't make contact when the door is slammed closed which may happen if the magnetic force is too much. If the force is too strong set them a little deeper. If not strong enough, remember magnetic strength can be increased by backing the magnet with a steel disc (washer works) so drill deeper and add a washer behind or a second magnet. You can see how not gluing them in would make this much easier.

[Rich Engelhardt]

<<snip>>

https://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=breaking-magnets (https://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=breaking-magnets)

Yes, the attractive force will be reduced, but that can be compensated by using a slightly stronger magnet.
If you are using magnets to hold something more or less "permanently" in place, then actual contact is not a problem as there is not constant "hitting".
So you need to recess the magnet just a little maybe a quarter or at most a .5mm

In making my 2.5 inch magports I recessed the magnets about a .25mmInteresting link.
I'll keep that in mind when I install the magnets.
Thanks for that info!