So who fixes large power tools if the manufacturer won't?

[Alan Lightstone]

Had an interesting / frustrating day in the shop today. My Grizzly Wide-Belt sander stopped working. I looked inside, and the platen was clearly shredded. Funny as I've never used it.

So I looked up the manual, and it looks pretty easy to remove it. Just put in this key / hook that they provide and pull.

Well, no dice pulling with all my strength (or lack thereof). So I call up Grizzly tech support, and the tech, who was very nice, said to just pull it, or take a lever and lever it out.

That clearly didn't work. I eventually put in the platen tool, and hit it with a small sledge hammer. Several hundred times. Didn't budge. I love the concept of taking a sledge hammer to an expensive power tool. I asked if spraying a lubricant would help, and he said no.

Called tech support again, asked if there is a panel to be removed to get more access. Nope. Then I asked if they have technicians who can come out to the workshop to fix it. Found out that they have no service department. :eek:

Eventually, I sprayed some dry teflon lubricant, and a few dozen more hammer strikes and it miraculously came out. So no great points there for Grizzly tech support, and I'm stunned that they don't have techs that for a price would come out to fix it. Felder certainly would. The Grizzly tech said that I could have it freighted back to Grizzly for thousands of dollars, and then pay their tech $95/hr to fix it.

So, my question is, what do other people do when they need repairs to large machines, like a wide-belt sander, and the manufacturer doesn't provide that service?

[Zachary Hoyt]

In my experience the owner does that. You can hire someone, but my philosophy is that it's better to mess something up myself than to hire someone else who will mess it up for me. At least I will know what I did, and it'll be a lot cheaper. In my experience an independent repair technician is frequently just someone who owns a shirt with his name on the pocket.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Almost all of my work experience has been among people with a limited supply of cash but tons of ability. I try to emulate them and do my best to fix all of my own stuff.

[John TenEyck]

Grizzly and Felder operate in different worlds. You'd pay twice as much, just to pick a number, for a Felder machine and then have to pay to have their tech come out to fix it if something goes wrong. I bet having those service techs is a net loss for Felder, or is part of the purchase price. In any case, it could be a good thing if you're running a business, but not so much for most of us hobbiests. Grizzly offers a value proposition that many find attractive. Having a staff of roving service techs doesn't fit with that approach.

I can't remember having any issue with one of my machines that I couldn't fix myself, or at least get apart enough to take to a machine shop to repair. What you experienced must have been pretty frustrating, but in the end you got it done.

John

[Larry Frank]

Interesting thread about fixing machines. I would bet someone could make a good career fixing woodworking machines. I read so many thread about peoples problems. The catch is that it will not be cheap. A service call on household appliances is expensive.

[Richard Coers]

Some import sellers basically send you a kit machine and expect you to be the quality control person and the machine repairman. They always get great praise for having a good customer service department, but I prefer buying new machines that don't need repair.

[Kevin Jenness]

Seems like you wound up doing the right thing, although penetrating oil should precede brute force in that situation. It's not surprising that the platen got stuck if it never gets used or withdrawn. You might want to just leave it out of the machine to avoid a repeat. It must have been in play without you realizing it to get chewed up. I have recovered a worn platen with graphite covered canvas and felt, it wasn't difficult on our Sandingmaster.

I have learned my machines inside and out by repairing and tuning them, but there are independent service techs and there must be some decent ones near you. Contact some commercial shops and ask who they recommend. I have learned a lot about widebelt sanders from the Surfprep website, specifically from blog posts by a tech named Adam West. I think he does onsite service and it would be worth getting in touch with him, at least to get a reference for a local service.

I can't imagine shipping a major machine off to get it repaired. By looking around and getting leads from other shops I have found electricians good with controls and metal fab and machine shops to fix stuff that I can troubleshoot and pull parts for repair locally. One resource you might consider is the old woodworking machine site (owwm.org)- there are a lot of folks on that board who are good at figuring out and fixing (even new) machines.

[William Hodge]

OWWM will get its collective panties in a twist at the mention of a Grizzley machine.

[Kevin Jenness]

OWWM will get its collective panties in a twist at the mention of a Grizzley machine.

True, posting about this particular machine there would not fly, but those are the kind of people who know how to fix stuff. You just have to do a little digging to find them.

[mike stenson]

Large power tools? Millwrights.

[Warren Lake]

ive seen one or two people advertise they repair machines on Kijiji.

When I was lucky i had a German tool and die maker friend. He not only could make and repair stuff, he also improved stuff for companies that had issues with things, he had the ability to identify why and improve. .

[Jim Becker]

You will be hard pressed to be able to get on-site service (from the manufacturer/vendor) for most woodworking machines that are not from "premium brand" and even then, you'll pay dearly for it. There may or may not be someone independent working locally, but they may or may not be pegged only to things they happen to sell. 'Nature of the beast and it's been that way for a very long time.

[Brian Holcombe]

Shops must maintenance their own equipment, it’s part of the requirement of owning and operating equipment. Large shops in days past would have at least one employee capable of doing so.

I have a set of mechanic tools at every tool station, and general metrology tools for the shop. Sometimes I also have those at the tool stations. Basically every group of tools has a dedicated toolbox with a complete set of sockets/allens/wrenches and anything case specific to them. This saves the travel time from one tool station to another. Other folks might have a rolling toolbox but my shop is broken up into multiple locations.

[Mark Gibney]

I bought a 15" widebelt sander used. It was taking way more material on one side.
The maker (I won't say who) still sells new machines here in Los Angeles - they said to bring it in, would be better than their tech coming to me.

I hauled it 40 miles on a rented trailer and left it with them. I explained the problem thoroughly, and left them the very thorough manual.
Got a call the next day - the machine won't run.
Drove up. They had this 3-phase machine wire-nutted to a single phase cord.

Got a call the next day. The machine is working fine now.
Drove up. The sander was strapped to a pallet and they loaded it onto the rented trailer.
Back at the shop it still took way too much on one side. Called them. The said they didn't check for that, just that the machine runs.

I counted to ten, then rented the trailer for a third time and took it back to them.
This time I recognized one of their techs from having met him at a woodworking show. I explained the shambles and he fixed the machine in an hour. Been working fine since.
The upshot is that you don't know who is working on your machine.

And they lost the manual. Have never found a copy online.

[Mark Hennebury]

This is totally age/experience dependent, if you are young enough and naive enough to trust people that you don't know, either call someone to come and fix it or take it to a machine shop or the dealers. Then when when you have done that a few times and managed not to get arrested, you will buy the tools and equipment and learn how to fix it yourself.

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[Edward Weber]

In my small shop, I find myself doing things much in the same way as Brian. I have a box of necessary tools and small parts for each machine as near to the machine as possible. I also have a few shelves dedicated to normal wear parts, sanding rolls, discs, belts, blades, etc.
I've also familiarized myself to the point where I know every inch of all my machines and their own specific needs.
(I also always read the manual)

[Rob Sack]

This can be a real problem. I know a lot on this forum have the time and inclination to dive right into a complicated piece of equipment and try to fix it. I have serviced and tended to my own equipment for decades, but when my wide belt threw a belt and shredded the infeed roller, I called in the experts. I own a full set of mechanics tools and have done my share of mechanical repairs on all sorts of equipment including major auto repair. But I am first and foremost a woodworker and know my limitations. I also do this for a living and it is not cost effective for me to start "experimenting" with my equipment. I was not about to dive into the wide belt and figure out the cause and attempt to repair it. This is one reason I don't deal with manufacturers in the first place who offer great value for their equipment, but when the s**t hits the fan, all they can offer is a bunch of parts and a pat on the ass, sending you on your way. I keep a list of professional machinery techs on file so that when an expensive and complicated machine goes down, I can bring in the experts. Over the long haul, this is more cost effective, not to mention keeping my antacid costs to a minimum. Furthermore, I try to buy equipment these techs can service in the first place.

[Warren Lake]

while not so practical at one point I doubled up on tools and machines. This because I had a general planer that let me down several times when on tight deadlines. Taking the transmission apart to replace a shear pin was no fun. There are definitely reasons for approaching this in different ways depending. The better shops in Toronto had a guy that did set up and repair, more important made custom gizmos and modified tools to give them a leg up over other shops.

[Brian Holcombe]

You may start to notice that a lot of solo craftsmen, or shops with a handful of people, often rapidly move from typical grade machinery to very heavy duty machinery once they become busy enough that constant maintenance of sheetmetal or light casting machines is too time consuming. One of the reasons for that move is that the really heavy stuff, especially before the age of electronic everything, does not come out of adjustment and doesn't break. They run for a very long time with minimal maintenance outside of normal oiling.

Compare that to modern machinery commonplace in their 'classical' lines, which is constantly wearing out and needing maintenance.

It would turn out that the modern interpretation of 'overbuilt' is actually properly built and the light stuff common everywhere now is much undersized for professional work.

[Edward Weber]

You may start to notice that a lot of solo craftsmen, or shops with a handful of people, often rapidly move from typical grade machinery to very heavy duty machinery once they become busy enough that constant maintenance of sheetmetal or light casting machines is too time consuming. One of the reasons for that move is that the really heavy stuff, especially before the age of electronic everything, does not come out of adjustment and doesn't break. They run for a very long time with minimal maintenance outside of normal oiling.

Compare that to modern machinery commonplace in their 'classical' lines, which is constantly wearing out and needing maintenance.

It would turn out that the modern interpretation of 'overbuilt' is actually properly built and the light stuff common everywhere now is much undersized for professional work.

The tools you're referring to were designed and built to be maintained. Many newer tools, regardless of the claims, are simply designed/built to replace parts, plug and pray.
Why grease bearings when you can just replace them? Why have a heavy cast iron base (which dampens destructive vibrations) when a light weight welded steel box will hold that tool just fine :rolleyes:
I won't even go into tearing down half a machine to replace a normal wear item, makes perfect sense.

[Warren Lake]

besides that is the joy of using a machine that has weight. The general jointer worked fine and still does but why use when a heavy smooth machine is more enjoyable to use. the old guy said look for three power lines when looking for a new shop. He always bought new but they dealt with him special as companies ran bought so much they likely could have given him machines. He was wrong as he didnt know about Rotos and I didnt know one of them close by had a roto so could have learned earlier but I didnt know at first. used can be complicated depending on who it came from. some could do a lot better job than they do in representing things but this is in all phases of life.

[Mark Hennebury]

1950 2184 lb, 30" Thomas Robinson bandsaw.
1950's 5,500 lb, Dean smith and Grace lathe in the background.

The first two photos are my bandsaw, the last photo is of the lower wheel spindle out of my brothers bandsaw, he stripped his down and repainted it.
I have a few machines that are 70 years old and still going, they were built in a different time, with a different mindset.


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[Steve Demuth]

The tools you're referring to were designed and built to be maintained. Many newer tools, regardless of the claims, are simply designed/built to replace parts, plug and pray.
Why grease bearings when you can just replace them? Why have a heavy cast iron base (which dampens destructive vibrations) when a light weight welded steel box will hold that tool just fine :rolleyes:
I won't even go into tearing down half a machine to replace a normal wear item, makes perfect sense.

Not sure I buy this as a general thesis. I've worked on a number of old machines that were beyond awkward to disassemble and repair. Just finished restoring a 60 year old belt sander that had parts stuffed in so tightly around the motor in cabinet that was welded on three sides, so only one side could be opened. Getting the motor adjusted properly for the two belts was nightmarish. And the bearings? Pretty much had to take the machine down to a bucket of individual parts to replace the bearings on the driven shaft.

[Alex Zeller]

A quick check on Powermatic's website for service centers list several in the Tampa area who do in house and field repairs. I suspect if you called them they would come out and work on Grizzly equipment for the standard hourly rate since a number of the tools sold by both brands come from the same factory.

[mike stenson]

I'll take sealed, non-serviceable, bearings and having to replace them once for every 8th time I'd have to clean and repack non-sealed bearings.

[Edward Weber]

Not sure I buy this as a general thesis. I've worked on a number of old machines that were beyond awkward to disassemble and repair. Just finished restoring a 60 year old belt sander that had parts stuffed in so tightly around the motor in cabinet that was welded on three sides, so only one side could be opened. Getting the motor adjusted properly for the two belts was nightmarish. And the bearings? Pretty much had to take the machine down to a bucket of individual parts to replace the bearings on the driven shaft.

I never meant to imply that ALL old tools are better in respect to ease of the maintenance. Not everything is better just because it's old.
Just IME, most are better thought out in terms of foreseeable maintenance than they seem to be today.
Even if you need to dismantle the whole thing, chances are everything will fit back together tha same as it did, not always the case with sheet metal machines.

[Randy Heinemann]

JPW (Powermatic/Jet) allegedly have companies who are available for warranty service onsite. However, the owner of the company in my northern Illinois area is aging and has decided to go out of business; probably not to be taken over by another. JPW was extremely helpful when I encountered a fairly simple warranty repair and the problem was resolved by an onsite service tech. Since then, JPW has referred me to a company that was supposed to be an authorized service company in Wisconsin. However, that guy doesn't know anything about Powermatice tools and has provided no information and certainly no actual service. I think the type of warranty service I got is a thing of the past for all power tool companies; for sure for small and home woodworking shops.

I would agree that, for relatively simple repairs, doing them myself is the best course of action. However, for more complex repairs or troubleshooting to determine what part or work is required, it would be difficult without technical assistance to do the work. I'm just not a mechanic and, for the first 40 years I've been a woodworker, technical support and even service were much more available. I'm just a woodworker who knows how to use my tools.

Not much information in my post. It's more just a commentary. If I were to begin woodworking now, I might think more seriously about keeping my woodworking tools to smaller, simpler, and lessepensive tools. I've been very lucky that nothing serious has gone wrong with the expensive larger power tools.

[Jimmy Harris]

I never meant to imply that ALL old tools are better in respect to ease of the maintenance. Not everything is better just because it's old.
Just IME, most are better thought out in terms of foreseeable maintenance than they seem to be today.
Even if you need to dismantle the whole thing, chances are everything will fit back together tha same as it did, not always the case with sheet metal machines.

Of course, there is the possibility of the perception of older tools being better made because the ones that actually lasted this long were better made. And the ones that were junk back then were all thrown away. In seventy years, they might be making the same complaint, that tools "today" aren't made to last like tools from the 2020's.

[Brian Holcombe]

I’m writing in generalities, but referring mainly to machinery built for industry. The stuff produced by manufacturers like Northfeild, Porter, Yates, Whitney, Wadkin, Robinson, Martin, Marunaka, etc. Very heavy, built to last and be maintained.

I see the comparison first hand with shops near me who have equipment from the typical hobby shop places. Once you start using it all the time, it breaks and comes out of adjustment.

I don’t think this has anything to do with romanticizing a time period, it’s from experience of using this equipment and noticing.

Light gauge weldments are cheaper to build and ship, they look cool and modern, but the resulting machine is louder, flimsier and does not hold up as well.

[Warren Lake]

read my mind. 30 other machines as well. They made machines for the trade and then later consumer and designer hobby stuff. Hobby people spend money look at any hobby. They saw a market or made one. Think it was the buildaburgers.

i had to start on general and for years before I found out I could have three phase and another level. My SCM is on its second generation with me and its like it was other than wear on tables and I bet more true than some new stuff. There were more SCM machines in toronto shop than any other brands. Likely the best bang for the buck. Buick level. Cooper and Horton sold massive amount of machinery.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Alan, I would ask machinery vendors in your area if they have Techs or know of independent Techs who could do work for you.

I have done work for Felder customers, directly for the customer for work Felder would not do, such as work on machines that didn’t have a valid approval.

The customers paid and interacted with me personally, not through Felder.

The customers were happy to have their machine repaired, as they couldn’t do it themselves.

A couple of instances were modifying unapproved machines so they could pass a field inspection so they could be sold.

I’m sure you’ll be able to find a Tech in your area.

Regards, Rod

[Edward Weber]

I’m writing in generalities, but referring mainly to machinery built for industry. The stuff produced by manufacturers like Northfeild, Porter, Yates, Whitney, Wadkin, Robinson, Martin, Marunaka, etc. Very heavy, built to last and be maintained.

I see the comparison first hand with shops near me who have equipment from the typical hobby shop places. Once you start using it all the time, it breaks and comes out of adjustment.

I don’t think this has anything to do with romanticizing a time period, it’s from experience of using this equipment and noticing.

Light gauge weldments are cheaper to build and ship, they look cool and modern, but the resulting machine is louder, flimsier and does not hold up as well.

Exactly what I was trying to say.
I've seen newer tools quit supporting and offering parts after a very short time, rendering the machine useless. It seems we have to have a new model every five years, instead of a model that stands up for twenty.

I wish the OP luck in his search for an machine mechanic that suits his needs.

[mike stenson]

Exactly what I was trying to say.
It seems we have to have a new model every five years, instead of a model that stands up for twenty.


I can tell people who don't work in a manufacturing, or product development, industry.

Nothing to sell, and you got no company. This isn't planned obsolescence, it's just capitalism.

[Mark Hennebury]

planned obsolescence, capitalism.

Same thing!

[Jerry Bruette]

I can tell people who don't work in a manufacturing, or product development, industry.

Nothing to sell, and you got no company. This isn't planned obsolescence, it's just capitalism.

I believe that planned obsolescence was created by capitalists so they could keep making profits instead of a quality product that consumers would prefer. Why do you think the automotive industry changes body styles every year? The new bodies aren't better, just something for consumers to chase.

[Brian Holcombe]

No, I suspect they’re trying to meet a price point all while packing in technology that is desired at the sacrifice of durability in the long run to meet that price point in the typical situation. This makes a machine more prone to failure but satisfies the market at a given price point.

Some companies advance the technology incorporated in the item while maintaining the highest durability and heft, those companies are certainly fewer and they offer their work a price point beyond the typical consumer. They’re also typically smaller companies which likely weight the cost of foundational change differently.

I can point to Omga and Hofmann as two top of mind examples. I think every manufacturing company out there weights the value of their reputation against the temptation to make a perpetual revenue stream in the knowledge that it does not arrive without obvious cost of people choosing to abandon their product.

[Edward Weber]

I can tell people who don't work in a manufacturing, or product development, industry.

Nothing to sell, and you got no company. This isn't planned obsolescence, it's just capitalism.

Two schools of thought here.
1. Sell to the people you can, ONE good, quality product every 20 years or so.
2. Sell to as many people as you can, a lower quality product at a discounted price, every couple of years.

1. creates loyal customers, who will often buy more from that company and stay loyal to them over the years.
2. creates captive customers, who will just buy the same item every new cycle but have no loyalty and can often stray to a competing brand.

I believe (naively) that products should sell themselves, not need to be sold.
I'm under no delusions of how manufacturing works, you're talking about marketing and product placement.

There is a planned obsolescence inherent in the design, based on lots of statistics gathered over the years.
If people don't hold on to their machines for 20 years, why should we make them last 30?

Most tools are built for their intended market, hobbyist tools don't need to be as robust since they won't be used for as many hours as a professional level machine. Unfortunately, there is a large price gap in between the two.

Many older machines were arguably (over-built), lasting far beyond the normal serviceable life. Today's machines are not built that way, they often meet expectations but rarely exceed them.

JMHO

[Alan Lightstone]

Hi Alan, I would ask machinery vendors in your area if they have Techs or know of independent Techs who could do work for you.

I have done work for Felder customers, directly for the customer for work Felder would not do, such as work on machines that didn’t have a valid approval.

The customers paid and interacted with me personally, not through Felder.

The customers were happy to have their machine repaired, as they couldn’t do it themselves.

A couple of instances were modifying unapproved machines so they could pass a field inspection so they could be sold.

I’m sure you’ll be able to find a Tech in your area.

Regards, Rod
Fortunately, brute force (and more helpfully penetrating lubricant) solved the problem and all is well now, although I had to whack on the platen despite significant amount of dry teflon lubrication to get it back in.

So I'm okay for now, but think this scenario may repeat in the future. Although, will spray lubricant in there first.

Interesting suggestion, though. I will keep that in mind for my other machines in the future.

[Kevin Jenness]

If you never use the platen, why not just leave it out? Did you repair it? If you do intend to use it, it might be wise to carefully ease the fit of the sliding parts so you can remove it when needed without a struggle.

[Alan Lightstone]

If you never use the platen, why not just leave it out? Did you repair it? If you do intend to use it, it might be wise to carefully ease the fit of the sliding parts so you can remove it when needed without a struggle.
I thought about that, and maybe should have done it. I wondered if it would be ok to run the wide-belt without it installed.

I'm really not sure how I could ease the sliding parts (steel, sliding dovetail on the platen). Don't really have the metal working equipment here.

I'm probably okay unless the graphite pad rips again. In that case, same story as earlier this week, but with lubricant.

[Kevin Jenness]

I thought about that, and maybe should have done it. I wondered if it would be ok to run the wide-belt without it installed.

I'm really not sure how I could ease the sliding parts (steel, sliding dovetail on the platen). Don't really have the metal working equipment here.

I'm probably okay unless the graphite pad rips again. In that case, same story as earlier this week, but with lubricant.

It won't hurt anything to leave it out. I would use a shaped sanding block to ease the fit. As long as it's in there why not try it out? It's designed to smooth out the scratch pattern; the only downside is it can dub over the edges slightly.

[Jim Becker]

Alan, even though you seem to have solved the issue at this point, it might still be an interesting and good exercise to find out if there are any independent resource in your geography that you could go to in the future. "Stuff happens", as it were... ;)