Forget 'Baby on board'

[Rick Potter]

I need a bumper sticker that says 'Nobody on board'.

Tesla has opened up the 'self driving' app on newer Tesla's for a free 30 day trial. It is factory installed on all of them, they just don't turn it on unless you pay, which we didn't.

All of a sudden there is an octogenarian who cannot even manage his cell phone properly letting the car drive itself. All I have to do is keep one hand on the steering wheel. I simply hit the normal cruise control lever and it stays in lane on freeways or city streets, stopping at stop signs and lights, even changing lanes when it decides to.

If I set a destination address, it takes me on and off freeways, city streets and all around the maypole. If there is a traffic blockage on major routes, it automatically reroutes me to the fastest way to get through.

It is not as smooth a ride as a mere human driver would be though. In example the lane changes, which includes turn signaling, are a bit abrupt, and sometimes come at times the driver might not choose. I suspect the driver would be looking at situations ahead, and anticipate things the computer doesn't. It almost changed lanes on me twice when a rush hour Kamikaze was coming up too fast beside me, and it caught itself halfway through my incipient lane change.

The automatic braking also reacts more aggressively than a driver normally would when a car pulls into your lane closely in front of you. It hits the brakes to give you some room ahead, while a driver would realize the car is going fast enough to do nothing and let it drive away.

Altogether it is an amazing system. Tesla has fixed it so if a driver does not keep a hand on the wheel, it will give a warning, which if ignored will cause the system to warn louder and turn off. Then the system will not be engaged until the car is stopped and restarted. I think that means you have to get out and walk away, since the car never actually stops working until you do that. There is no key, just an app.

I think they updated the system this way because so many people who bought the self driving were not paying attention while they let the car make decisions.


PS: I have always wondered what a fully autonomous car would do if I am going straight through a busy intersection, while a big truck is going fast running the light, and there is a troop of Girl Scouts on the opposite sidewalk. Will it sacrifice my car full of Nuns, or the Girl Scouts? I know the manufacturers have thought of this, and I suspect they have addressed it somehow. I also suspect it will remain a dark secret.

Live long and prosper.

[Pat Germain]

Lately, the signs I'm seeing read, "Baby Up In This Bitch". Modern vernacular, I suppose.

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe a sign saying, "Driver sleeping, this car is driving itself… poorly."

jtk

[Alan Rutherford]

I want a car you can slap on the rump and tell it to go get the groceries.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm a tech person, but I'll drive my car, thank you. Systems like Telsa's self driving work well until they encounter some situation where they don't.

Mike

[Lee Schierer]

It is not as smooth a ride as a mere human driver would be though. In example the lane changes, which includes turn signaling, are a bit abrupt, and sometimes come at times the driver might not choose. I suspect the driver would be looking at situations ahead, and anticipate things the computer doesn't. It almost changed lanes on me twice when a rush hour Kamikaze was coming up too fast beside me, and it caught itself halfway through my incipient lane change.

The automatic braking also reacts more aggressively than a driver normally would when a car pulls into your lane closely in front of you. It hits the brakes to give you some room ahead, while a driver would realize the car is going fast enough to do nothing and let it drive away.

The things you listed are among the many factors that mean that truly safe self driving cars will be a long way off. There far too many variables encountered by drivers of vehicles to be handled by programs with existing methods and technology.

[Tom M King]

I just wish my truck had a backup camera.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I just wish my truck had a backup camera.

I'll bet you could order one from Amazon.:D

[Tom M King]

I've had one to mount for several years, but it's not that high on the to-do list. Hard part is finding a place for the GPS whose screen would be used that it would stay in place securely. I haven't spent any time looking at mounts for years. Nice screens come with new $100,000 trucks, but this one has been paid for going on 24 years now.

[Doug Garson]

I need a bumper sticker that says 'Nobody on board'.

Tesla has opened up the 'self driving' app on newer Tesla's for a free 30 day trial. It is factory installed on all of them, they just don't turn it on unless you pay, which we didn't.

All of a sudden there is an octogenarian who cannot even manage his cell phone properly letting the car drive itself. All I have to do is keep one hand on the steering wheel. I simply hit the normal cruise control lever and it stays in lane on freeways or city streets, stopping at stop signs and lights, even changing lanes when it decides to.

If I set a destination address, it takes me on and off freeways, city streets and all around the maypole. If there is a traffic blockage on major routes, it automatically reroutes me to the fastest way to get through.

It is not as smooth a ride as a mere human driver would be though. In example the lane changes, which includes turn signaling, are a bit abrupt, and sometimes come at times the driver might not choose. I suspect the driver would be looking at situations ahead, and anticipate things the computer doesn't. It almost changed lanes on me twice when a rush hour Kamikaze was coming up too fast beside me, and it caught itself halfway through my incipient lane change.

The automatic braking also reacts more aggressively than a driver normally would when a car pulls into your lane closely in front of you. It hits the brakes to give you some room ahead, while a driver would realize the car is going fast enough to do nothing and let it drive away.

Altogether it is an amazing system. Tesla has fixed it so if a driver does not keep a hand on the wheel, it will give a warning, which if ignored will cause the system to warn louder and turn off. Then the system will not be engaged until the car is stopped and restarted. I think that means you have to get out and walk away, since the car never actually stops working until you do that. There is no key, just an app.

I think they updated the system this way because so many people who bought the self driving were not paying attention while they let the car make decisions.


PS: I have always wondered what a fully autonomous car would do if I am going straight through a busy intersection, while a big truck is going fast running the light, and there is a troop of Girl Scouts on the opposite sidewalk. Will it sacrifice my car full of Nuns, or the Girl Scouts? I know the manufacturers have thought of this, and I suspect they have addressed it somehow. I also suspect it will remain a dark secret.

Live long and prosper.

I wonder, when you are comparing how a self driving car reacts to a situation, what human driver do you use for reference? Is it the 16 year old who just got his license with great reaction time and eyesight but not much experience and sometimes questionable judgement (perhaps showing off for a girlfriend)? Or the octogenarian with failing eyesight, slow reaction time but lot's of experience and good judgement? Or the hothead who over reacts to any other driver's actions resulting in road rage incidents? Or the guy who's had a couple drinks? Or the guy who has been up for 20 hours and is struggling to keep his eyes open? Or any number of other people who don't belong on the road?
Not sure if self driving cars are at the point where they are safer than a "good" driver yet, but maybe they are already better than the some of drivers I described above. At some point, self driving cars will be safer than most human drivers and the obvious question then will be, should standards for humans getting a driver's license be increased? I recall when I got my license 50+ years ago, the hardest part was parallel parking and I don't recall any part of the test involving highway speeds or driving in poor conditions. At 75, I think I have better judgement and experience in driving in winter conditions than when I was 25 but I know my night vision and reaction times are not as good. I suspect most of us seniors probably peaked in terms of driving skill and judgement between the ages of 40 and 60.

[Jim Koepke]

In some areas groups are rebelling against autonomous cars by placing a traffic cone on the hood. This messes with the sensors and requires a reset of the vehicle's system before it can move again.

jtk

[Patty Hann]

In some areas groups are rebelling against autonomous cars by placing a traffic cone on the hood. This messes with the sensors and requires a reset of the vehicle's system before it can move again.

jtk

Can't say exactly why, but when I read your post I just laughed out loud.
Even now I still think it's funny.

Modern day Luddites, I guess. And I'm in sympathy with them too :D

[Malcolm McLeod]

I've had one to mount for several years, but it's not that high on the to-do list. Hard part is finding a place for the GPS whose screen would be used that it would stay in place securely. I haven't spent any time looking at mounts for years. Nice screens come with new $100,000 trucks, but this one has been paid for going on 24 years now.

If/When you’re ready, if cameras are your trump card, look at GMC. For the moment at least, they are killing it. My new one has 7 cameras, and a port on the bumper for a trailer cam, located either inside a cargo box, or on the back (to maintain 360deg view). (Mine was <$100k…much!:D)

ETA -
As far as a screen ‘mount’ is concerned, perhaps look at a new stereo (aka head unit, in today’s world)? Many offerings include an option for camera integration and will be as secure as the original stereo. And new stereos can be had for less than a new truck!

We return you now to your regularly scheduled OP topic.

[Tom M King]

I'm guessing yours is not a diesel dually. I haven't looked at them lately, but not too long ago they were all around a hundred grand. New stereo is a good tip. It needs one anyway. That's about the only thing that's quit working in this 24 year old one with 387,000 miles. I was hoping it would last until they came out with a plug in version. I only put a few hundred miles a year on it these days. This one has been so reliable because it was the last year they made them with no smog control stuff on it. It doesn't even have an EGR system on it.

[mike stenson]

Maybe a sign saying, "Driver sleeping, this car is driving itself… poorly."

jtk

I feel like this is the same either way in Arizona.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I'm guessing yours is not a diesel dually. ...
Not dually or HD, alas. Sierra 1500 Duramax 3.0L turbodiesel for towing in the nosebleed seats (:: CO). (Tried to put a receiver hitch on a Cayman:eek: but mechanic just laughed at me.;))

[Alan Lightstone]

PS: I have always wondered what a fully autonomous car would do if I am going straight through a busy intersection, while a big truck is going fast running the light, and there is a troop of Girl Scouts on the opposite sidewalk. Will it sacrifice my car full of Nuns, or the Girl Scouts? I know the manufacturers have thought of this, and I suspect they have addressed it somehow. I also suspect it will remain a dark secret.

Live long and prosper.
Ah, the "Trolley Problem". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
This is the real reason that I think true, fully autonomous cars are in the more distant future. It's the real reason why we don't see fully autonomous cars, not the technology.

I also have a FSD Tesla Model S Plaid. It now is on the "Supervised" mode (an odd term they use now instead of beta). It truly does get better with each iteration. This latest one finally understands and slows down for speed bumps, and just seems to travel better. How it chooses road speed to go depending on traffic is a little odd, but I think that will get better too. And yes, the car is stupid quick and passenger cars should not be able to go 0-60 faster than Indy Light cars, but I digress.

I actually just turned down my reservation for a Foundation Series Cybertruck, because its blind spots are so large, it needs the most up-to-date full self driving software, which it doesn't have yet. When that arrives, I'll likely purchase mine. Also waiting on realistic all-season tires, not the off-road ones that are the only option now. I'll love that it can act as a battery backup for my house in case of a hurricane. Now the big question that no-one can answer is when Duke Energy cuts off my power due to line issues (islanding) , can my solar cells recharge the Cybertruck batteries so that I can go without power for days.

[Rick Potter]

Hi Alan,

About charging off solar....When my system was first installed, they showed me how to do that, but I have forgotten the instructions. So, it can be done.

The most important thing is that the system be disconnected from the grid, so that someone working on a downed line elsewhere does not get a nasty surprise. That is why systems automatically disengage when power goes out. What the installer was showing me was how to keep it useable just for my house, not off property.

We have never lost power here for more than 6-8 hours. Just lucky, I guess. Still hoping to outwait THE BIG ONE.

[Alan Lightstone]

My system automatically disconnects, to prevent injury to linemen. But there are several big honkin disconnects on the system, which even if I flipped, the system supposedly does not supply any energy to the house if the utility is offline. They call this Islanding.

That being said, why couldn't a couple of big contactors that would flip and prevent energy to being sent back to the utility be able to be installed and prevent that. Really not a big deal, but supposedly illegal here. Yet if you have backup battery system, it can operate with no utility power. Not sure how they do that.

[Rick Potter]

Maybe when you buy the Tesla power wall, it might include those provisions. I never looked into it, as we don't have many outages, as mentioned.

[Ron Selzer]

My system automatically disconnects, to prevent injury to linemen. But there are several big honkin disconnects on the system, which even if I flipped, the system supposedly does not supply any energy to the house if the utility is offline. They call this Islanding.

That being said, why couldn't a couple of big contactors that would flip and prevent energy to being sent back to the utility be able to be installed and prevent that. Really not a big deal, but supposedly illegal here. Yet if you have backup battery system, it can operate with no utility power. Not sure how they do that.


They are called transfer switches commonly used with generators. If your system automatically drops out, sure seems like it could be stand alone.
Automatic Transfer Switches - Electric Generators Direct (https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/power/automatic-transfer-switches.html)
Ron

[Bill Howatt]

I really don't know for certain, but I'd be wary equating a transfer switch for a generator with the requirements for a solar source that is feeding power all the time. If the solar connected only when the power failed then it would be acting like a generator installation but I don't believe that is how it is done.

[Alan Lightstone]

I can see issues with a solar installation, even as large as mine, being the sole provider of power during all the daylight hours. Production is a bell curve, and early morning and early evening it would clearly not produce enough energy for even selected loads in the house. On the other hand, if it charges batteries, and they produce even amounts or sufficient amounts of energy, it would not harm appliances.

Early morning, and early evening would act as brownouts.

But I really want my solar cells to be able to charge the large battery bank of a Cybertruck, which then could provide power to the house, even after sunset during a blackout.

[Ron Selzer]

I really don't know for certain, but I'd be wary equating a transfer switch for a generator with the requirements for a solar source that is feeding power all the time. If the solar connected only when the power failed then it would be acting like a generator installation but I don't believe that is how it is done.

Alan stated that the solar disconnects when Utility Co. power is lost. Also he has several disconnects already. Now it would be possible to install an Automatic Transfer switch OR a manual transfer switch to totally disconnect off of the incoming Power Lines and use the Cybertruck to power the house. OR might only need some more control circuitry.
DEFINITLY WOULD NEED LOOKED AT CLOSELY TO MEET LOCAL RULES.
Somebody would have to get up close and personal with what is there and design what is needed. Probably lots more money, however only Alan can say how much it is worth to him.
Ron

[Brian Elfert]

Most grid tie solar inverters need a source of power to sync to. Even if you had a transfer switch to isolate your solar the panels won't produce any power. This is starting to change. The latest Enphase microinverters can produce power even if the grid is down.

[Jim Koepke]

Does anyone actually think this all hasn't already been worked out by the power companies? When my neighbor installed solar panels the power company installed equipment so they could provide power to the grid.

The only real problem would be if someone is trying to instal solar and connecting to the grid without the power company knowing. Those are likely the ones who end up with a pile of ashes where their home once was.

jtk

[Alan Lightstone]

Does anyone actually think this all hasn't already been worked out by the power companies? When my neighbor installed solar panels the power company installed equipment so they could provide power to the grid.

The only real problem would be if someone is trying to instal solar and connecting to the grid without the power company knowing. Those are likely the ones who end up with a pile of ashes where their home once was.

jtk
Jim:

I think you are misunderstanding the issue. I provide a nice surplus to Duke Energy, for which they pay me <1/4 what I would pay them. On virtually every sunny day I send power to the grid.

It's when the grid goes down, and I want to have my large solar array provide my house with power that it is blocked.

Ultimately, some form of battery backup will be necessary. Tesla will have their Cybertrucks able to provide power to a house. Not available yet. But when it is, that's my battery backup. My question, which no one at Tesla can/will answer is whether or not my solar array can recharge the Cybertruck batteries when the grid is down.

[Bill Howatt]

If your solar array can provide the Kw capacity I don't see why it can't charge the battery assuming somewhere in your equipment is an accessible inverter outlet that converts the solar DC into 240V, 60Hz AC.
If the power (Kw) available from either array size of poor sunlight is low then isn't it just an issue of taking longer? But I can't say if Tesla puts any quirks into a generic situation.

[Alan Lightstone]

If your solar array can provide the Kw capacity I don't see why it can't charge the battery assuming somewhere in your equipment is an accessible inverter outlet that converts the solar DC into 240V, 60Hz AC.
If the power (Kw) available from either array size of poor sunlight is low then isn't it just an issue of taking longer? But I can't say if Tesla puts any quirks into a generic situation.
Oh no doubt it would be physically capable of charging the car batteries. The question is whether or not their system (it will be proprietary) will allow it. Especially as Tesla Solar did not install my solar array and it is not their inverters. There are devices that they say will be necessary to install to use the car to power the house.

Tesla calls it Powershare Home Backup and there is something about a Gateway V3 adapter/device. That's really about all the information that they say on the Cybertruck order website.

[Bill George]

It would be possible to install an another Inverter in parallel to to the existing just to feed a 240 circuit that only feeds the Tesla charging station, not connected to the grid. I could do it to mine if needed.

[Jim Becker]

Alan, how would a traditional fossil fuel generator be handled in this situation where you have solar as you describe with the draconian prohibition of using it during a utility power outage? In essence, a battery "generator" is what would fit in that same space.

[Alan Lightstone]

Alan, how would a traditional fossil fuel generator be handled in this situation where you have solar as you describe with the draconian prohibition of using it during a utility power outage? In essence, a battery "generator" is what would fit in that same space.
A propane generator (we have a tank here, but no natural gas available) would be able to power the house during a grid blackout (automatic or manual transfer switch). The solar panels, I believe, would again not be usable during the time the grid is out.

If at all usable, I would think they would have to supplement the generator output, otherwise that brownout scenario would occur. Not sure how equipment would handle that scenario. Certainly not technologically impossible, but I don't think fossil fuel generator companies (Generac, etc...) would have any interest in that.

[Larry Edgerton]

I'm guessing yours is not a diesel dually. I haven't looked at them lately, but not too long ago they were all around a hundred grand. New stereo is a good tip. It needs one anyway. That's about the only thing that's quit working in this 24 year old one with 387,000 miles. I was hoping it would last until they came out with a plug in version. I only put a few hundred miles a year on it these days. This one has been so reliable because it was the last year they made them with no smog control stuff on it. It doesn't even have an EGR system on it.

I put one on my step van, but that was easy. The one I used did not have a data link, it was wireless. I did have to tap into the tail light for power at the camera. And I had two acres of dash to install it on.

[Jim Becker]

A propane generator (we have a tank here, but no natural gas available) would be able to power the house during a grid blackout (automatic or manual transfer switch). The solar panels, I believe, would again not be usable during the time the grid is out.

If at all usable, I would think they would have to supplement the generator output, otherwise that brownout scenario would occur. Not sure how equipment would handle that scenario. Certainly not technologically impossible, but I don't think fossil fuel generator companies (Generac, etc...) would have any interest in that.
Generac actually has an excellent battery backup solution...I considered it for here (along with solar panels), but in the end, I decided we would not be at this property for long enough to make it worth the investment, at least for us. They use the same automated transfer switch as with the gas powered generators (which I did opt for, having an all electric house other than oil backup on the heat pump) so that potentially would be a solution you could use. During normal times, the solar panels could keep the battery array topped off and if the utility goes down and they shut off your panels, you still have power. It's just coming from a bunch of very heavy batteries rather than from a traditional generator.

[mike stenson]

Most grid tie solar inverters need a source of power to sync to. Even if you had a transfer switch to isolate your solar the panels won't produce any power. This is starting to change. The latest Enphase microinverters can produce power even if the grid is down.

Those must be newer than a year.

[Alan Lightstone]

Generac actually has an excellent battery backup solution...I considered it for here (along with solar panels), but in the end, I decided we would not be at this property for long enough to make it worth the investment, at least for us. They use the same automated transfer switch as with the gas powered generators (which I did opt for, having an all electric house other than oil backup on the heat pump) so that potentially would be a solution you could use. During normal times, the solar panels could keep the battery array topped off and if the utility goes down and they shut off your panels, you still have power. It's just coming from a bunch of very heavy batteries rather than from a traditional generator.
I extensively looking into getting Tesla Powerwalls a few years ago. Also looked at a few competitive products. I also look at them periodically.

To power our whole house would take 4 Powerwalls, which would run $46K. Now one thing you realize (or should realize) living in hurricane country is that you don't have to power your whole house if the grid goes down. You need 1 room with AC (hurricanes in summer the issue down here), some lights, and fridge/freezer. Really don't need to power the whole house. So I actually had my electrician reorganize my circuit breakers to have those loads on one panel, to make that easier. Planned on having 1 floor of the house have power in an emergency.

I also had an energy monitoring system installed on those breakers, to see just how much power they use during the day. Easy-peasy. Knew what I needed. Time to get the battery backup system.

At that point, for whatever reason that cost them a sale, my solar installers dropped the ball and didn't return my calls about getting the battery backup installed. A year later, the company called and asked if I had any interest in buying a battery backup. I told them too late, they lost the sale.

After looking into the economics of getting battery backup, it doesn't make any financial sense with my utility. Duke Energy only pays me back $.025/Kwh of electricity I send back to them as surplus, and now charges $15.6/kWh for usage. So if I used the batteries every night to power the house, and charged them with the solar panels every sunny day, it looks like the batteries will pay for themselves in about 15 years. But their lifetime is about 10 years. I've had a few solar companies confirm this. The honest ones here will tell you that they will never pay for themselves. A whole-house propane generator here would only cost around $15K.

Since I built the big homemade UPS for our medication fridge, the real risk (other than inconvenience) of a prolonged power outage here is just food in the fridge. Economically a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of a battery backup system. Now on the other hand, if a huge battery in an EV like the Cybertruck can provide that power, the economics change. And if every 3 days you need to run to the Supercharger for an hour to recharge the Cybertruck, not a big deal (during the last hurricane here the vast majority of the gas stations had no power. I checked 5 Superchargers - all were working fine.)

Now if I lived in a wildfire prone area, like some in California, that often have brownouts or blackouts, I'd likely give a different answer. Or if my utility paid me the same for surplus that they charge for usage.

[Steve Demuth]

Those must be newer than a year.

They've been available since 2021 from Enphase. If you have IQ8 inverters, those are grid-forming capable. Whether or not, and when, they will provide AC power absent grid input depends on how they're configured (which of course depends on what your utility will permit).

[Roger Feeley]

I’m curious, the navigation system learn routes from manual driving? When I’m driving home, I often use a particular highway and the gps in our Chrysler wants me to use what looks like the most direct exit. But I don’t like that exit because I only have a hundred feet to cross three lanes of traffic to make a turn. I use a different exit that’s much less stressful. I usually turn the gps off by that time but you see my point.

I remember when we got our first gps, I was running it while I drove to well known places to see how it would behave. At some point, I plugged in my neighbors address, literally 40 feet away. The route the gps came up with was over 10 miles. It wanted me to go to a major highway, go one exit and navigate back. My testing was very useful.

[Jim Becker]

I extensively looking into getting Tesla Powerwalls a few years ago. Also looked at a few competitive products. I also look at them periodically.
Tesla eventually "closed" their offer and started requiring their own solar roof or panels, if I'm not mistaken, in order to buy the PowerWall system. Originally, it was able to be used with other solar collectors, again, AFAIK, but I could be wrong about this. When I priced the Generac system, I found it pretty reasonable for the backup scenario I wanted which was on the upper end of things, although it was more than I could justify for how long we will live here as I previously noted. The good news is that solar solutions, including battery backups, are continually coming down in cost and there are a lot more options available on the market.

[Steve Demuth]

After looking into the economics of getting battery backup, it doesn't make any financial sense with my utility. Duke Energy only pays me back $.025/Kwh of electricity I send back to them as surplus, and now charges $15.6/kWh for usage. So if I used the batteries every night to power the house, and charged them with the solar panels every sunny day, it looks like the batteries will pay for themselves in about 15 years. But their lifetime is about 10 years. I've had a few solar companies confirm this. The honest ones here will tell you that they will never pay for themselves. A whole-house propane generator here would only cost around $15K.

You might look again. The price on batteries has dropped dramatically in the last 3 years. What would have cost you $46K 3 years ago can probably be had for closer to $20K today.

Also, doesn't the price differential between what you export, and what you consume from Duke make batteries more attractive, not less? If you can charge enough battery capacity most days to power your house during the 18 or so hours the panels aren't producing at scale, that's saving you the difference between the rates, minus efficiency losses in going to and from the battery, for each kwh the batteries provide. That's be in the vicinity of $0.10 per kwh in your case. Still not going to pay for itself in a short period, but at less that $8000 for a 13.5 kwh Powerwall 3, it'd be in the vicinity of paying for itself over the lifetime of the battery, and you get the backup as a bonus.

[Doug Garson]

I’m curious, the navigation system learn routes from manual driving? When I’m driving home, I often use a particular highway and the gps in our Chrysler wants me to use what looks like the most direct exit. But I don’t like that exit because I only have a hundred feet to cross three lanes of traffic to make a turn. I use a different exit that’s much less stressful. I usually turn the gps off by that time but you see my point.

I remember when we got our first gps, I was running it while I drove to well known places to see how it would behave. At some point, I plugged in my neighbors address, literally 40 feet away. The route the gps came up with was over 10 miles. It wanted me to go to a major highway, go one exit and navigate back. My testing was very useful.
You must be referring to much older GPS systems. Yes they all have glitches in their data base maps but the glitches are becoming much less common. I use Google Maps and sometimes Waze (also owned by Google), it does not use your manual driving to determine your route. It has an incredible database of maps covering a lot of territory including, (based on my experience), fairly remote areas of Costa Rica. My understanding is it calculates your route using real time traffic information including traffic delays, accidents and road construction sites. I've used it to navigate home and wondered why it was taking an odd route only to hear on the radio that there was a big accident on my normal route. My understanding is it uses cell data from thousands of cars pinging cell towers to determine that cars are not moving at usual speeds on a certain road and interprets that as a traffic jam. It also uses input from drivers reporting speed traps, cars stopped on the side of the road etc (at least Waze does this) to warn you of problems. I think the navigation side of the self driving issue is the least to worry about.

[Doug Garson]

PS: I have always wondered what a fully autonomous car would do if I am going straight through a busy intersection, while a big truck is going fast running the light, and there is a troop of Girl Scouts on the opposite sidewalk. Will it sacrifice my car full of Nuns, or the Girl Scouts? I know the manufacturers have thought of this, and I suspect they have addressed it somehow. I also suspect it will remain a dark secret.

Live long and prosper.

I wonder what the answers would be if that scenario was described on the driver's test and applicants were required to answer? I also wonder what % of drivers could think it thru and react in time to do what they say they would do.

[Rick Potter]

Roger's post (#38) made me curious, so when I left to get a burger, I went down my street about 100', since the car needs a bit of movement to know exactly where you are. I stopped, and entered the address of the house across the street from my house, then started out. About 50 feet down the street I was told to do a u=turn and go back. I did that, and it took me to the correct street address.

PS: Just got a notification telling me they have used data from thousands of trips to hone and improve the city street driving by nav. Sounds like a lot of people are trying the free month trial. I also got a notification that Tesla has reduced the price from $200 a month to $100, after only a couple of weeks into the trial subscriptions. Not sure about my car, but four others in the family will definitely be doing it.

[Bill Dufour]

I have heard that tesla now requires you to buy at least one powerwall if they add solar panels. People also take used car batteries that no longer hold a full charge and use those as solar backup batteries. A battery that is like 80% gone from original amp hours is considered a warranty item. It will last a long time inside a home with no big temperature swings, no vibration, no heavy load accelerations. Who has 700 Hp in their home shop?
A tesla battery breaks into something like six, 40 volt sections. If only five are good use those in the home system.
Frito Lay is using the Tesla semi trucks here. UPS no longer uses the BEV trucks. They lasted about five years. I understand the mega charger for the trucks are like 1,000 volts at 1,000 amps
BilL D

[Alan Lightstone]

Many years ago now, I had a Lexus LS that was perhaps the first car that could park itself. My daughter used it for her driving test, and when she had to parallel park and not hit the cones to pass the test, she had the car do it.

The instructor laughed hysterically, then said. OK. You pass. Now do it yourself.

[Rick Potter]

Only a young lady would get away with that. ;)

[Jim Koepke]

Duke Energy only pays me back $.025/Kwh of electricity I send back to them as surplus, and now charges $15.6/kWh for usage.

Most people paying a rate like that would sit in the dark with the TV off.

In my county:


Cowlitz County PUD's patrons are charged an average residential electricity price of 8.79 cents per kilowatt hour

We are among the lowest 170 rates in the country.

It seems a bit coercive for them to pay you so little while charging so much.

jtk

[Alan Lightstone]

Whoops. Typo on my post. Duke Energy charges $0.156/kWh. Forgot the decimal point.

That being said, they now only pay back 16% of what they charge you for electricity for surplus you send them, that they then resell. Nice business to be in. Their rates they charge customers went up this year, and the amount they pay you for surplus went down even more.

[Steve Demuth]

Whoops. Typo on my post. Duke Energy charges $0.156/kWh. Forgot the decimal point.

That being said, they now only pay back 16% of what they charge you for electricity for surplus you send them, that they then resell. Nice business to be in. Their rates they charge customers went up this year, and the amount they pay you for surplus went down even more.

The rules on feed in tariffs in this country are a complete mess, with both solar advocates and the utilities arguing for - and in some places getting - absurd positions. The advocates think you should get net metering at full retail, with refunds for production over use. The utilities want to pay so little that no consumer would choose to self generate. None of this is helpful. It's particularly not so in a place such as where I live, where a Rural Electric Cooperative that serves almost entirely widely distributed customers on land parcels that range from 20 acres up to thousands - We should be encouraging levelized solar and wind on every farm they serve, either with on-farm batteries, or by building grid-scale batteries.

Currently, my own REC has basically two options for those who want to have distributed generation (which is mostly, but not entirely solar): you can go full net meter (which means you get a credit for every kwh you feed into the grid equal to what you pay for a kwh taken off the grid), provided you don't connect production that exceeds 125% of your annualized usage, or you can build as large as you want (up to 40kw), but be compensated at "avoided cost" rates set by the REC's wholesale supplier at maybe 10% of the retail meter rate. The full net meter option is crazy: there is no way the power a solar system feeds back into the grid for a couple of hours on a sunny day is worth full retail, and paying that rate just shifts the cost of continuous generation off those with solar to those without. But the avoided cost calculation option is absurd in the other direction: we sould be encouraging responsible renewable production, including levelized production, not strangling it at birth.

The absence of a national grid policy on this stuff is an embarrasement.

[Rick Potter]

Well, the decision is made. The free trial period is over and we decided not to spend $100 a month to get the full self driving experience. It was interesting, both super neat and annoying. Each time you over ride it, you get a message asking why, and I gave them my dislikes which were mostly about unwanted lane changes.

I am sure that with all the millions of feedback answers they are getting they will have the system smoothed out in just a few months. If I ever take a long trip in the car, I will see if I can just buy a month. Don't know if they will do that. I guess we will see.

[Alan Lightstone]

Well, the decision is made. The free trial period is over and we decided not to spend $100 a month to get the full self driving experience. It was interesting, both super neat and annoying. Each time you over ride it, you get a message asking why, and I gave them my dislikes which were mostly about unwanted lane changes.

I am sure that with all the millions of feedback answers they are getting they will have the system smoothed out in just a few months. If I ever take a long trip in the car, I will see if I can just buy a month. Don't know if they will do that. I guess we will see.
Yes, clearly still a work in progress. The automatic lane changing is often annoying. It would always try to go in the right lane at a spot where I knew up ahead would be a line of cars waiting to get into the Starbucks and Chick-fil-A. I would always have to change that.

I really didn't have much belief that anyone listens to those recordings you make when you cancel autopilot.

It drives MUCH better now with cars cutting across lanes ahead of you. Huge improvement in that.

Lane changing now has a different, and very annoying bug. It often starts a lane change, pauses, goes back to the original lane, then makes the lane change. Never did that before. It's in the latest software "upgrade". That's a real programming screwup.

So each major upgrade really does get better. It's clearly not a finished product by any measure. And you really do have to be ready to cancel at any time. But it is getting more and more impressive each year.

[roger wiegand]

I was traveling for most of the month so only got to try the FSD on a couple short trips. I thought it was a really impressive proof of principle. Worked way better than I expected and vastly better than the dumbed down "autopilot" lanekeeping you get without paying extra. The glitches and weirdness remaining, however, means that it's still not something I'd use other than as a novelty.

Based on what I've seen it certainly could be made to work, very easily if the other cars on the road were so equipped. Dealing with the irrational behavior of humans makes it much harder. It's already a much better, safer driver than quite a number of people I know.

"What's amazing is not how well the bear dances, but that it dances at all"

[Alan Lightstone]

Yes, until cars talk to each other ("Hey, I'm in this lane, don't change lanes into me..."), and of course the Trolley Car problem gets solved (which it won't) this will still be beta. It is very impressive at times having the car drive to a destination 20 miles away, making 50 turns, stopping at stop signs, stop lights, merging onto the highway, etc... But it still makes some mistakes on most drives.

The WSJ recently said that the average age of a car in the US is 12.5 years, and having cars over 200,000 miles is commonplace. In that context, it will be quite a long time until most of this happens. The majority of cars on the road talking to each other: >20 years would be my guess.

[Rick Potter]

I suppose someday 'they' will tell me I can only drive my '55 T-Bird on Saturdays between 5 and 7 AM. Wouldn't want to annoy other 'drivers'.


519217

[Alan Lightstone]

I suppose someday 'they' will tell me I can only drive my '55 T-Bird on Saturdays between 5 and 7 AM. Wouldn't want to annoy other 'drivers'.


519217
1.) Wow. Spectacular car.
2.) The EU just passed a law that slows down speeding cars.
https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a40543584/anti-speeding-tech-mandatory-in-european-union/
I guess that makes Porsches, Lamborghinis, and Ferraris irrelevant.

[Patty Hann]

I suppose someday 'they' will tell me I can only drive my '55 T-Bird on Saturdays between 5 and 7 AM. Wouldn't want to annoy other 'drivers'.


519217

Neato torpedo car, Rick. :)

I worked with a man who owned one ('55) in the turquoise blue similar to this:

519253

[Bob Turkovich]

I suppose someday 'they' will tell me I can only drive my '55 T-Bird on Saturdays between 5 and 7 AM. Wouldn't want to annoy other 'drivers'.


519217


Geez, Rick. It only took you four pages until you got to what you really wanted to talk about... (That's about as far from a self-driving Tesla as you can get.)

Does that have custom fenders/ headlight extensions? Looks like the headlights protrude farther forward from the bumper than what I remember or see on other pictures,

Bob T.

[Rick Potter]

Just the angle of the pic Bob. It is all original except for a few minor mods. It was built in Sept '54, and is one of the first 250 T-Birds.

That is my grand daughter driving it. She will be graduating with a degree in (honest) Funeral Services. Already does embalming. She also just got engaged to a rocket engineer in Texas.

And yes, I can talk about old cars all day, owned close to 200.