Do You Avoid Buying Gas When...

[Bill Howatt]

the tank truck is filling the station's tanks?

My, B-I-L who is fairly car mechanics literate, says he does because the dumping of the fuel into the underground tank stirs up all the water and whatever that had settled to the bottom. Does seem to make at least some sense.

Do you avoid this?

[Jim Becker]

Not likely a factor in high volume stations like Costco which are constantly pumping gas and constantly getting re-supplied. Since that's the only place I buy gas unless I'm traveling, I wouldn't worry about it and have pumped many, many times when a truck was parked and putting fuel in the underground tanks. For stations that are not high volume, there "might" be more risk. One would hope that filtration between the tank and the pump gets rid of the "whatever"; water is it's own thing and can be a serious issue. A whole bunch of folks in South New Jersey found that out recently...twice...where what was being pumped was nearly 50% water.

[Ron Citerone]

I do based on my father saying it. He worked repairing the tanks on those gad trucks and said the bottom was loaded with gunk and dirt. I suspect truck tanks have come along way and better filtration with the advent of fuel injection. I still listen to Dad’s advice even though he passed 15 years ago.😀😭

[Bill George]

Never buy gas when the tanker is dumping in fuel, one of my rules.

[Brian Elfert]

The whole tanker thing is not that big a deal for me. I have a Costco membership, but I don't buy gas there all that often. The closest Costco is often more expensive than a pair of stations closest to home. When I used to drive to work I would pass by the Costco business center and the gas there was usually a good deal. When the business center gas station first opened about three or four years ago they were selling gas for a super low promotional price for a few weeks. I can't believe it was legal to sell that low because of the eight cent minimum markup law in Minnesota.

I have a diesel converted coach bus that usually takes over 100 gallons per fill. I use truck stops, but it is not uncommon to have a tanker filling. Truck stops sell a lot of diesel when fill ups average over 100 gallons at a time.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I will avoid entering a gas station while the tanker is there after reading this. Early speculation about the Key bridge disaster pointed to bad fuel. This reminds me that we are advised to fill up before the eclipse travelers pass through our area.

[Edward Weber]

This is one of those stories that's been around for years. Originally it might have had a small kernel of thuth to it but these days it's just not an issue.
Now it's more of a superstition than anything else.

I'd rather people fuel on the side of the car where the pump is, instead of dragging the hose around the car and standing in the middle of the lane.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I mistook the bad TFI module on my old Ford for bad gas. That thing left me stranded many times.

[Jim Koepke]

the tank truck is filling the station's tanks?

My, B-I-L who is fairly car mechanics literate, says he does because the dumping of the fuel into the underground tank stirs up all the water and whatever that had settled to the bottom. Does seem to make at least some sense.

Do you avoid this?

When the gas is being taken from the storage tank to the pump, it doesn't skim the gas from the top of the tank. It is likely just like the fuel from a car's gas tank being taken from the bottom of the tank.


A whole bunch of folks in South New Jersey found that out recently...twice...where what was being pumped was nearly 50% water.

Found a report on this > https://nj1015.com/conoco-gas-station-water-flooding/

The amount of "contaminants" in storage tankes could vary from state to state.

Here in the west some stations have had to replace tanks due to leaks.

jtk

[Bill George]

Those final filters at the pump take out most dirt and rust scale but does zero for the water. I just turned 80 most of my life I took care of my own cars and trucks, including when I was on the farm as a kid. Gas can be Cr*p the same as transmissions and engines that fail. The new vehicles are better than the old. remember plugs and points at 10k miles?? Remember trading in that car at 30,000 miles? Today if you keep the oil and filter changed most cars and trucks can go 200,000 miles.

[Jim Becker]

The closest Costco is often more expensive than a pair of stations closest to home. W.
That's interesting because in my experience, Costco's gas price is generally lower than typical local stations, especially "name brands" that are also Top Tier fuel. Here, the cost difference is as much as twenty cents a gallon lower. I've found advantage while traveling up and down the east coast, too, with using Costco when it's reasonably close to the route. But I'm sure there are areas that are different.

[glenn bradley]

Don't forget the nanobots!!!! Run, neighbors, run!

[Jim Koepke]

That's interesting because in my experience, Costco's gas price is generally lower than typical local stations, especially "name brands" that are also Top Tier fuel. Here, the cost difference is as much as twenty cents a gallon lower. I've found advantage while traveling up and down the east coast, too, with using Costco when it's reasonably close to the route. But I'm sure there are areas that are different.

When we lived in California Costco was often the lowest price in the area.

Here it is different, plus there are a couple of other factors in the equation:

518064

This is Vancouver, Washington prices. Oregon often has lower prices. This only shows Sinclair for a major's price. Sinclair is new to the area. This chart showed Union 76 and Arco at $4.39, the same as Walmart. Chevron was at $4.55, they are often one of the highest prices around here.

Fred Meyer and Safeway have promotional pricing with their Rewards Card. For every $100 spent in their stores the customer can get 10¢ per gallon off of their fuel prices up to $1. With certain promotions you can receive up to 4 times fuel rewards points. We usually get at least 50¢ per gallon and often we get a whole dollar. That is handy with my truck as it can take ~30 gallons to fill.

Consulted Dr. Google on > when fuel is being delivered to a service station does it cause more muck in the fuel < interesting answers about fuel filters in the gas pumps and liability of service stations if these, required in most states, filters do not trap sediment and ruin people's cars.

Also found something else to consider > https://living.acg.aaa.com/auto/risks-of-driving-on-empty

jtk

[Bill George]

I don't have to google to use common sense! I have seen the tanks removed from the ground when ownership changed hands and its the state law. Tanks rusted and sometimes leaking.

[Brian Tymchak]

40 years ago I filled my car while the truck was filling the station tank. Got about 300 yards down the road and the car died. I happened to have tools in the car and an empty soda bottle. Opened the gas line, pumped a bit of fuel into the bottle. Almost 100% dirty water. It took a couple days to get the fuel system flushed and plugs changed.

Hopefully these days they can fill those tanks without mixing the water layer and sediment at the bottom. But I still avoid filling up if the truck is at the station.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I always enjoyed the ritual of starting the John Deere B. When you first look at the glass sediment bowl it almost always has water and dirt in it. Take that off, dump it out, open the fuel valve and wash the glass bowl in the little stream of gas with your bare hands, let a quart or more run out before you put it back together, wipe your hands on your jeans, climb on, close the choke, and look forward to the pop pop pop, Dad's B had electric start. Grandpa's had to be started by hand. The first time I drove grandpas B he sent me to the gravity gas tank to fill it up. Thank goodness he kept an eye on me and stoped me from putting gas in the radiator.

[Ronald Blue]

I would suggest in most places and at least where I am you won't find a steel underground tank still in use at a gas station. Just last year a station completely redid their tanks and gas islands near here and the tanks were fiberglass that went in. I should clarify all the ones I've saw installed were fiberglass. I'm sure steel is still an option with the obvious long term draw backs. I don't how much is determined by the state EPA and how much the federal government. I know any station that closes if it doesn't reopen within a period of time and it may be 12 months the tanks are removed. It's been probably 30 or more years since I got bad gas at a station. I knew it almost immediately as well but a bottle of Heet took care of it. Anyway I haven't let the sight of the fuel tanker unloading deter me from getting gas.

[Jim Becker]

I was going to mention that, Ronald...unless a station hasn't been refreshed (one reason I stay away from "off brand, 'cheap' gas places") there's not going to be an issue with rust and those kind of debris. Water is "more possible" if there's a leak though any of the topside access points for fill and vent.

[Bill George]

If some of you folks don’t think bad gas is an issue, talk to a real mechanic. The place down the road was sold and the new shop owner nearly doubled his space. He will tell you his thoughts about today’s gas and some not too bright car drivers.

[Jim Becker]

Bill, bad gas does happen. But one can reduce the risk of getting it in your tank by being selective about where you buy gas... I did say "reduce", however, not "eliminate" risk.

[Ole Anderson]

Better safe than sorry. Why take the chance? Yes, you are safer buying from high volume/high fuel turnover stations. Water enters cool underground tanks by condensing water vapor in the air that replaces fuel used. Betting it is less of an issue in Phoenix than Seattle. High turnover stations will tend to send a little bit of water out with every user, while low turnover stations will be more of an issue as water accumulates then gets stirred up while tankers are dumping gas. That is my story and I am sticking to it!

[Steve Demuth]

Curious that in this whole thread, no one has mentioned that most of the fuel we pump into cars is not gasoline, but a gasoline-ethanol mix. Makes a big difference with respect to the water in gasoline story. In a cold (underground) tank that is used to dispense pure gasoline, water that condenses from warm moist air when cool fuel is withdrawn will indeed settle to the bottom of the tank, and could be a problem if the tanks aren't properly maintained. In a tank that contains 90-10 gasoline-ethanol mix, that water will go into solution in the fuel because simple alcohols are miscible with both gasoline and water (this is why HEET or other gas line antifreezes work to remove water from your system, although the alcohol used in those is typically methanol). So, even though the ethanol is more corrosive to fuel line components overall, it actually works to reduce water contamination, and the resulting rust in steel tanks. It's not foolproof that way, as the rusted out tank of my Honda walking tractor engine reminds me (why in hell they put a steel tank on those engine, I don't understand) - if fuel turnover is low, and you have lots of temperature and condensing cycles, you can still get a puddle of water in the tank.

[Jim Becker]

Steve, I don't think that many folks consider the gasoline/ethanol mix because in most cases, there's no option around that anyway. Unless you actually seek out "pure" gasoline which is few and far between, you get the mix. To the masses it's "just gasoline". But yes, the ethanol does have an effect on the whole water concern.

[Ronald Blue]

If some of you folks don’t think bad gas is an issue, talk to a real mechanic. The place down the road was sold and the new shop owner nearly doubled his space. He will tell you his thoughts about today’s gas and some not too bright car drivers.

I never said bad gas can't happen. I said it's not likely to be a rusty tank issue and sediment stirred up during a tanker filling the tank. Maybe steel tanks are still common where you are.

[Steve Demuth]

The ubiquity of ethanol blend is exactly my point - whereas 25-30 years ago, even in a busy gas station, you might well see a tanker stirring water up from the bottom of a tank, it's just not going to happen very much at all in modern fueling stations pumping gasoline-alcohol mixes. The water is being continuously removed and burned in our engines.

And given the highly efficient particulate filtering that is absolutely necessary in fuel injected engines, that means the whole tanker-stirred contaminants thing is almost certainly much, much rarer today than before (if it every really was a problem).

[Bill George]

I never said bad gas can't happen. I said it's not likely to be a rusty tank issue and sediment stirred up during a tanker filling the tank. Maybe steel tanks are still common where you are.

Heck yes we are your neighbors, there are lots and lots of steel tanks still in the ground, yes even in Nebraska and will be for a long, long time. Where do you think all the cr*p goes when the tank is rusted and also water / dirt is present? It goes to the bottom of the tank, dumping in a few thousand gallons of new gas in the tank, do you really believe it does not get stirred up?? Talk to a mechanic who works on cars and trucks. BTW there is water and dirt also in fiberglas tanks, how could there not be??

[Warren Lake]

There have been one or two times that the saturn was running poorly then cleared up and thinking I can specifically remember getting gas when the big truck was there one or two times. Unaware that that was possibilty. whatever happened and very likely that was it its run great since then. Thank you for posting that.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

My Logger acquaintances get their chainsaw gas at the airport. I always go out of my way to find 93 octane for my small engines.

[Warren Lake]

I only use Shell V power highest octane in chainsaw and mower. Ive lucked out with this current MS250 its many many years with no issues and ill attribute that to the additives and using Stihl Oil. Ive been using it in the saturn as well the odd time the lower octane one of V power

I watched you tubes on that and some said zero difference one guy did prove the additives left stuff cleaner.

Additives oil were not positive for the 92 wall though as they affect the valve seals and make them shrink. Told Mobile 1 was fine by a tech only to find out it wasnt. Went from using no oil to 1/5 litre on 3000 miles.

[Bill George]

Yes even thou the know everything folks poo poo it I use Premium non ethanol gas in all my small engines and never an issue even sitting a couple of years. Oh know you will do a google search and find its not needed but you have never worked on the stuff.

Mobile one had some issues early on but I hear its fine now.

[Jim Koepke]

My Logger acquaintances get their chainsaw gas at the airport. I always go out of my way to find 93 octane for my small engines.

A friend of mine in rural California does the same. The only other places with non-ethanol gas near him are a few hours drive.

Luckily for me when it is needed there are a few places in town that carry it.

Find in your area at > https://www.pure-gas.org/

jtk

[Bill Howatt]

I used to go the few outlets that still sell alcohol-free gas for my small engines. I also checked it when I got home to make sure it really was alcohol-free (it always was). Rightly, or wrongly, I don't bother anymore, I put in Sta-Bil 360 which is supposed to negate the bad effects of the alcohol. I always put stabilizer in my gas cans for storage anyway and so far this seems to be working well for the past 5 years.

https://www.goldeagle.com/product/sta-bil-360-protection/

[Bill George]

I used to go the few outlets that still sell alcohol-free gas for my small engines. I also checked it when I got home to make sure it really was alcohol-free (it always was). Rightly, or wrongly, I don't bother anymore, I put in Sta-Bil 360 which is supposed to negate the bad effects of the alcohol. I always put stabilizer in my gas cans for storage anyway and so far this seems to be working well for the past 5 years.

https://www.goldeagle.com/product/sta-bil-360-protection/

That’s a good idea, I have heard things about 360!

[Warren Lake]

i think I read the stihl oil has that in it.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I like when threads come along that spur agreement. Creekers like good clean fuel, good boots, good food, sharp tools...

[Bruce Wrenn]

Local Costco goes thru an average of 30,000 gallons a day, which translates into five tankers a day. Only by luck will you be there when there isn't a tanker dumping during open hours, I have seen one waiting for the one in front of it to finish dumping. Steel UST's are a thing of the past.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Not long ago I tried to get a mental picture of how big a tank would be need to be to hold the worlds daily supply of crude. With the help of the web I came up with a cube shaped tank 800 feet long, 800 feet wide and 800 feet tall. For 1 day.
Update, 900x900x900 feet

[Ronald Blue]

Heck yes we are your neighbors, there are lots and lots of steel tanks still in the ground, yes even in Nebraska and will be for a long, long time. Where do you think all the cr*p goes when the tank is rusted and also water / dirt is present? It goes to the bottom of the tank, dumping in a few thousand gallons of new gas in the tank, do you really believe it does not get stirred up?? Talk to a mechanic who works on cars and trucks. BTW there is water and dirt also in fiberglas tanks, how could there not be??

Obviously regulations differ on this side of the big muddy. Steel hasn't been allowed here since 2008. Only fiberglass. I can't find the info on steel now but I think nothing can be in use any longer from before 1989. I'm sure any tank has a little contamination in it. I haven't had a problem in 30 years though. Over 100,000 on my current pickup bought new in 2015, same with the one before that purchased in 2004. Haven't kept the SUV's that long but no fuel problems with any of them either. Next time I see a friend who wrenches at the local Ford dealer I will ask him if they see many fuel related issues.

[Brian Elfert]

That's interesting because in my experience, Costco's gas price is generally lower than typical local stations, especially "name brands" that are also Top Tier fuel. Here, the cost difference is as much as twenty cents a gallon lower. I've found advantage while traveling up and down the east coast, too, with using Costco when it's reasonably close to the route. But I'm sure there are areas that are different.

There are a BP and Speedway station across the street from each other that are often the same price, or less, then the Costco about eight miles away.

The local Costco stations don't have diesel, but they do in other states. It used to be that a Costco in Salt Lake City always had the lowest diesel prices around, but that is no longer the case. It was really fun getting a 43 foot motorhome with 24 foot trailer in and out of the gas station. It has a really tight turn to get out. These days there is a newer chain of truck stops called Maverik that usually has better prices. I use Costco on road trips when I can. I paid $2.15 at a Costco in Denver back in January.

[Curt Harms]

My Logger acquaintances get their chainsaw gas at the airport. I always go out of my way to find 93 octane for my small engines.

Avgas at airports is nearly always 100LL (100 octane low lead) That doesn't have alcohol but it does have a fair bit of lead in spite of its low lead designation. Older aircraft engines designed to run on 87 octane didn't especially like it if idling quite a bit. It was (I guess still is) a ritual on those engines to run the power up to about 1700 RPM and do a mag check. If it ran rough on one mag, go back to both and lean the mixture to raise combustion temperature to burn the lead off the spark plugs. I guess chain saws run at high power most of the time so it isn't an issue there. There is a movement to ban aviation fuel with lead in it no matter how little and the EPA is getting onboard. It's also expensive to handle leaded aviation gasoline, it can't use pipelines (no leaded fuels in pipelines apparently) and it's a very low volume business. There is I believe there is only one facility in the western world that produces the lead additive.

[Brian Elfert]

It seems to be pretty common where I live that abandoned/unused fuel tanks have to be removed. The MN State Fair had a former DOT truck station onsite and the tanks were removed there. The State Fair also moved their fleet garage to a new location and had to remove the tanks at the old fleet garage. I don't know if they have removed the old fuel tanks at the abandoned race track. The pumps at the race tracks had not been used in years, but around 1990 they started using the pump for diesel.

[George Yetka]

The pumps normally have significant filtration in them as far as the gunk goes. And reputable stations i would hope get the tanks pumped and cleaned occasionally to remove any buildup of water.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Quite an onion here...
Mr. Yetka is correct: there are water and sediment traps, plus fines filters in many cases, on every fuel delivery system I've ever seen. On-site maintenance of those devices likely runs the gamut from OCD to 'What filter?'. Caveat emptor.

I have no inside knowledge of pricing philosophy for the semi-national retailers*, i.e. Costco, Love's, Pilot, etc, but locally owned stations in my area (NM/CO/TX/OK) always seem locally competitive and aligned on gasoline prices. Diesel not so much - prices can vary 30-40cents on opposites sides of the highway, and vary 70cents in 200miles. And then there are the 'taxe$' in CO - - I've seen gas prices climb >1.50$/gal between Texline & Trinidad. CO vs TX state published motor fuel tax rates only have a $0.02 delta, so no idea why the huge difference.

*Major O&G companies got out of the retail biz a couple of decades ago, so $$ differences are determined by locals - - your respective friends and neighbors??

Octane...
...has essentially nothing to do with horsepower. I am not a chemist, but my fittingly simple minded explanation of octane is that as any engine's compression ratio increases, the fuel's octane rating needs to increase to prevent detonation. This is why the Mountain West sees 83-85 octane :: at 9000ft ASL there is just less air in the cylinders.

Avgas is a wonderful onion all by itself...
FAA has probably not certificated a new GA engine twice in the last 3-4 decades? So, the current piston-engines require 100LL per the FAA. EPA has been trying to nuke 100LL for at least 1-2 of those decades. Who wins?!? ...Govern'mental' at its finest.

Then there are those mags... We have dual mags on GA engines for safety/redundancy. Really? When is the last time any car newer than 2000-ish mis-fired or needed plugs? Or any electronic ignition work at all? I have a 2007 Toyota FJ @290kmiles running on the original plugs. Only the headlights are dual! (Tiny dose of hyperbole here; no need to beat me with the taillights.)

And I finally just switched to canned fuel for my chainsaws. Ethanol dissolved the fuel system guts of my previous one. No more.

[Tom M King]

I have one horror story to tell about contaminated fuel- diesel, not gas. About 20 years ago my Wife was showing a dog at a show in Richmond, about an hour and a half from where we live. The dogs she breeds need to pass their health testing every year for various reasons, but mainly to get the top price for the puppies. At some shows (that one) they have the health testing clinics where you can get it all done at one place. Long story shortened some, I carried five of the dogs that weren't being shown to get their health testing done.

On the way home, I stopped in Petersburg (an hour away from home) to fill up with diesel. I was driving the dually.

Normally, I fill up at truck stops but had put off filling too long so just stopped at a regular gas station.

About 2 miles down the road, the engine quit. I carry a spare fuel filter, so that was not a worrisome few minute fix. Another two or three miles down the road and it quit again. This time I looked at what was in the filter and realized that it would do little good to put another filter in it.

A local guy stopped to help me and pulled me into a privately owned gas station about a quarter mile away. It was one of those July days close to 100 degrees here, and the dogs were getting too hot to safely stay in the truck, so I rented a room in the motel next door to that service station.

The guy that owned that station knew a local guy with a rollback big enough to move the dually on, so I called him. He worked at another job and couldn't take us home until later that night, which was fine because it was cool enough then that the dogs could ride in my truck on the back of the rollback.

Room was about a hundred bucks, rollback trip home was 250, and I spent all the next day taking the full 56 gallon tank out of the truck, cleaning it out, and putting it back in, so I lost a day of produced income out of it too. I forget what the 56 gallons of fuel was worth back then.

I only buy fuel from truck stops since then.

[Edward Weber]

There are so many "it depends" variables in this subject it's not even funny.
If you deal with one or more engines, of any kind, you'll probably encounter a fuel issue at one point or another in your lifetime. Places that sell "bad" fuel, don't stay open long if at all.
Some vehicles do run better on certain formulations of gas (different stations) but that's about it.
The millions of gallons of gas/diesel pumped each year and the hand full of issues cited, would suggest it's not a widespread problem, or at least not in the last 25 years.
Too many old wives tales and superstitions for me.

[Pat Germain]

There are so many "it depends" variables in this subject it's not even funny.
If you deal with one or more engines, of any kind, you'll probably encounter a fuel issue at one point or another in your lifetime. Places that sell "bad" fuel, don't stay open long if at all.
Some vehicles do run better on certain formulations of gas (different stations) but that's about it.
The millions of gallons of gas/diesel pumped each year and the hand full of issues cited, would suggest it's not a widespread problem, or at least not in the last 25 years.
Too many old wives tales and superstitions for me.

^^ Yup.

- All the gas stations in a given area get their fuel from the same distribution point. The only variable is the additives package and water is not among those additives.

- Any modern gasoline engine is designed to burn ethanol-blended gasoline. Running 100% gasoline won't hurt it, but it's not necessary.

- Alcohol is hydroscopic and tends to absorb more moisture from the air that pure gasoline. But as long as the fuel isn't sitting for months on end, it won't be a problem.

- Even 100% gasoline will start to go bad after a few months. Additives like Sta-Bil help, but not indefinitely.

- Seems almost every time I get gas, there's a fuel truck parked at the gas station. Never, not once, have I had a problem with getting gas while a fuel truck was filling tanks.

- The only way there is going to be a lot of water in the gasoline is if:

A: The tank is so leaky that ground water is getting in
B: The owner is putting a garden hose into the tank to stretch the gas

- I have a 1970 Mustang Mach 1 with the factory, carbureted engine. It requires premium gasoline because the engine has high compression (10.7:1). There is exactly one pump in my area that dispenses 100% premium gasoline. It's on the other side of town, it's unattended and it requires a commercial account to use. Not gonna go there. I've been running ethanol blended, premium gasoline in my Mustang for years with zero issues. I have replaced all the rubber fuel lines with modern, fuel injection hoses. Those are resistant to alcohol. No other mods are necessary.

- There is absolutely, positively no reason to run premium gasoline in a small engine unless you have modified said engine to have high compression; which is extremely unlikely. High compression, either from the combination of piston and combustion chamber or from supercharging or turbocharging, is the ONLY reason to use premium, high octane gasoline. Premium/high octane gasoline does not have any more energy than lower octane gasoline. It does not have a better additives package other than the additive which boosts the octane to make it less volatile. Putting premium/high octane gasoline into an engine which does not have high compression won't hurt anything other than your wallet. But it is a complete waste of money.

[Bill George]

I will try to explain for you google mechanics, gasoline from the time is refined starts loosing its freshness and octane. After about 5 or 6 months its starting to go stale and loses some of its octane. Premium gas holds its octane longer and stays fresh longer, for long term storage I use Sta-bil . I have been doing this longer than before the Internet was invented and I do not have issues, period. For me an extra 20 cents is no big deal. A farmer friend of mine goes in town once a year and fills all his tanks for the farm with Premium non ethanol gas, he learned this years ago.

Yes different brands and grades of gas have different additives and its dumped in at the pipeline terminal in the tanker truck, and I have seen it done.

[Edward Weber]

^^ Yup.

- All the gas stations in a given area get their fuel from the same distribution point. The only variable is the additives package and water is not among those additives.

- Any modern gasoline engine is designed to burn ethanol-blended gasoline. Running 100% gasoline won't hurt it, but it's not necessary.

- Alcohol is hydroscopic and tends to absorb more moisture from the air that pure gasoline. But as long as the fuel isn't sitting for months on end, it won't be a problem.

- Even 100% gasoline will start to go bad after a few months. Additives like Sta-Bil help, but not indefinitely.

- Seems almost every time I get gas, there's a fuel truck parked at the gas station. Never, not once, have I had a problem with getting gas while a fuel truck was filling tanks.

- The only way there is going to be a lot of water in the gasoline is if:

A: The tank is so leaky that ground water is getting in
B: The owner is putting a garden hose into the tank to stretch the gas

- I have a 1970 Mustang Mach 1 with the factory, carbureted engine. It requires premium gasoline because the engine has high compression (10.7:1). There is exactly one pump in my area that dispenses 100% premium gasoline. It's on the other side of town, it's unattended and it requires a commercial account to use. Not gonna go there. I've been running ethanol blended, premium gasoline in my Mustang for years with zero issues. I have replaced all the rubber fuel lines with modern, fuel injection hoses. Those are resistant to alcohol. No other mods are necessary.

- There is absolutely, positively no reason to run premium gasoline in a small engine unless you have modified said engine to have high compression; which is extremely unlikely. High compression, either from the combination of piston and combustion chamber or from supercharging or turbocharging, is the ONLY reason to use premium, high octane gasoline. Premium/high octane gasoline does not have any more energy than lower octane gasoline. It does not have a better additives package other than the additive which boosts the octane to make it less volatile. Putting premium/high octane gasoline into an engine which does not have high compression won't hurt anything other than your wallet. But it is a complete waste of money.

I agree but for one some item.
As someone who has built and rebuilt many, many engines, premium leaves a cleaner engine inside, IME.
Premium (whatever that is these days, 91, 93 ?) may cost more and do little for most engines, as you say, but a compression ratio in the high 10's or 11:1 is not that uncommon these days and some cars you might not expect can benefit.

[Pat Germain]

I will try to explain for you google mechanics, gasoline from the time is refined starts loosing its freshness and octane. After about 5 or 6 months its starting to go stale and loses some of its octane. Premium gas holds its octane longer and stays fresh longer, for long term storage I use Sta-bil . I have been doing this longer than before the Internet was invented and I do not have issues, period. For me an extra 20 cents is no big deal. A farmer friend of mine goes in town once a year and fills all his tanks for the farm with Premium non ethanol gas, he learned this years ago.

Yes different brands and grades of gas have different additives and its dumped in at the pipeline terminal in the tanker truck, and I have seen it done.

While I've never worked at a service center, I have been working on cars and trucks since the late 1970s. I have rebuilt many engines. I have restored multiple classic cars. I don't think that makes me a "Google Mechanic". But OK, sure, FIVE OR SIX MONTHS can affect octane. Your typical daily driver does not let gasoline sit in a tank at home for five or six months.

[Tom M King]

Octane is just the ability to resist pre-ignition-necessary only for some combination of high compression and high rpm's. Tolulene was at one time the primary octane additive. It might still be. I don't claim to know.

Gasoline doesn't have more "power" in it because it has more octane. At one time, they were running over 80% tolulene in Formula 1 cars and they came out with a rule that fuel used had to have a max of 80% Tolulene.

Fortunately, there is no trouble buying non-ethanol gas around the lake here. Ethanol gas has kept mechanics in business for years from boats and jet skiis hanging in boathouses over a Winter with ethanol gas in them all around the 350 miles of shoreline here. I think most have learned now.

[Bill George]

You folks need to re-read what I wrote... its for small engines chainsaws, farm equipment and the like where can sit for months. If an engine calls for high octane premium gas that is what you need to use. Can't see spending that extra money, sell the car!! You can buy additives to boast the octane and I have heard it helps.

I helped my dad on that small farm overhaul a Avery tractor 4 cylinder engine before I was 12 back in the 50s sometime. A engine with premium gas will start better and faster than regular gas that is old and stale.

[Edward Weber]

If you're going to let something "sit" for long periods of time, take precautions.
Where I live, none of my equipment sits idle very long at all. I do agree with Bill that Premium does not seem to go off as fast as lower octane fuel, IME This makes ift better for storing "extra" gas for emergencies.
I don't have fuel related issues or horror stories, so I'll continue with my methods until I do, then I'll determine why.
(Disclaimer, not a google mechanic)

[Maurice Mcmurry]

My father in law has a McCullough chainsaw from the 1970s. He always ran it dry and shook every drop of gas out of the tank before putting it away for the season. He last put it away in 2016. I put fresh gas in it last summer and it started right up. I put it away dry too. It will have to have new fuel lines this spring. I am sure it will start right up.

[Tom M King]

Bill, I wasn't trying to argue with you. I was just trying to add something to the conversation that a lot of people don't know.

I never felt comfortable running all the gas out of any 2-stroke. I use the gas on/off valve for the kill switch on four stroke things like a generator or pressure washer that might not get used for years.

I don't let gas sit in anything for long though. That generator and pressure washer get the gas line taken loose and the gas drained out of the tanks. They both always start years later.

For 2-strokes, I always worried about the last few revolutions being unlubed when running one dry. I do pour the gas out of any that are going to sit, and with the switch off and choke on, I pull the cord a few times. I don't care that the cylinder is flooded, but hope that the needle valve is left open. My 066 can sit for years and always starts after a few pulls when treated like that. I have way too many different small pieces of equipment to start every month, or even every year, so it all sits until it's needed.

I don't have any problem with it running non-ethanol for as long as it needs to sit, but I had to replace five carburetors one year when an unscrupulous person bought a local gas station and sold ethanol gas out of non-ethanol pumps. He ended up going to jail for other fraud in a boat business selling motors and leaving the crates looking like the motors were still in inventory.

I burn way too much gas around here in small equipment to ever worry about any going stale. The big mower probably burns at least ten gallons a week during grass growing season, but I still don't feel comfortable running ethanol gas in it. That 35hp Kawasaki is a great running motor, and it gets a lot of work done in an hour, but it loves gas. 187 hours on it now in three years, but it's cut a Lot of grass. I've changed oil in it four times and just changed the air filters this morning. I can't remember the last piece of small equipment I wore out, not including regular riding mowers.

[Bill Dufour]

When the price is going down I buy at Arco that gets two or three deliveries a day. If the price is heading up I buy at a local independent that only gets a delivery once a week or so. Never sure if I should buy a full tank or just enough to get by until the price drops more. With an electric lawnmower, chainsaw etc. I no longer worry about filling gas cans at the lowest price for the season.
I still buy a lot of stamps right before the price goes up.
Bill D

[Warren Lake]

there are a number of you tubes that say there is no benefit to premium in lower compression motors. There is one ive seen past that took the motor apart and proved there was on the Shell V power I believe do to additives and it was cleaner. I just dont remember which one it was and thats why I listen to one friend that runs it in his chainsaw and other stuff for clean aspect. I have one motor that is 11:1 and will have to talk to a pro before its decided how that will be rebuilt. when I was first buying gas for that Sunoco Gold had lead and was 103 octane and it was pink that was in the 70's

[Bill Howatt]

The biggest problem with deposits and fouled plugs was from the lead in the gas and carburetors being poor at ideal fuel mixtures especially for rare highway driving. Back in my youth, drag-racing friends used to buy high premium gas across the border in the US because a certain station on the way to the strip had higher octane gas. Idea was to be able to fudge the timing a bit more without pre-detonation and presumably get more power.
Nowadays, I hear some people talking about better gas mileage and maybe power if they use premium gas. Personally, I take the more power part with a grain of salt and a typical care has more power than it needs no matter what it's running on. A Google search says premium is generally 20-25% more expensive than regular and I doubt anybody is getting that big of a mileage increase to justify the cost.
IMO, just look in the little book they gave you, you know, the one you used to setup the radio presets, and find the headlight switch, and see what the manufacturer tells you to use.

[Pat Germain]

The biggest problem with deposits and fouled plugs was from the lead in the gas and carburetors being poor at ideal fuel mixtures especially for rare highway driving. Back in my youth, drag-racing friends used to buy high premium gas across the border in the US because a certain station on the way to the strip had higher octane gas. Idea was to be able to fudge the timing a bit more without pre-detonation and presumably get more power.
Nowadays, I hear some people talking about better gas mileage and maybe power if they use premium gas. Personally, I take the more power part with a grain of salt and a typical care has more power than it needs no matter what it's running on. A Google search says premium is generally 20-25% more expensive than regular and I doubt anybody is getting that big of a mileage increase to justify the cost.
IMO, just look in the little book they gave you, you know, the one you used to setup the radio presets, and find the headlight switch, and see what the manufacturer tells you to use.

Your skepticism is on track. Premium gasoline has no more energy than lower octane gasoline and therefore does not produce more power. 100% gasoline does have more energy per drop than a ethanol blended gasoline. Although, there is some truth to the idea about advancing ignition timing for a little more power and premium gas can allow more ignition timing without pinging. Simply pumping in premium compared to regular gas won't improve MPGs, but pumping in 100% gasoline can improve MPGs compared to an ethanol blend.

Ironically, some very high performance cars run extremely well on E-85 or even 100% ethanol. Those engines are tuned for ethanol. For example, the air/fuel mixture is a lot more rich for ethanol. Ethanol allows for very high compression, but since you have to run the mixture so rich, MPGs suffer big tim.

[Ronald Blue]

The biggest problem with deposits and fouled plugs was from the lead in the gas and carburetors being poor at ideal fuel mixtures especially for rare highway driving. Back in my youth, drag-racing friends used to buy high premium gas across the border in the US because a certain station on the way to the strip had higher octane gas. Idea was to be able to fudge the timing a bit more without pre-detonation and presumably get more power.
Nowadays, I hear some people talking about better gas mileage and maybe power if they use premium gas. Personally, I take the more power part with a grain of salt and a typical care has more power than it needs no matter what it's running on. A Google search says premium is generally 20-25% more expensive than regular and I doubt anybody is getting that big of a mileage increase to justify the cost.
IMO, just look in the little book they gave you, you know, the one you used to setup the radio presets, and find the headlight switch, and see what the manufacturer tells you to use.

While premium is recommended in my torch red mid life crisis two seater it does just fine on an 87 octane 10% ethanol blend. What I find most impressive is that if I drive it without having to feel those 460 HP it will average 30 MPG. It's hard to go for a cruise and not at least tickle the throttle though a few times. I tried premium and saw no improvement either in mileage or performance. It might be something you would have to go to a track to see though.

[Bill George]

Your engine has Knock sensors, when you use a cheaper gas your on board engine computer module ECM adjusts the timing to get rid of the low octane knock before you even hear it. You lose performance of course that you would have with the higher octane fuel. Continued use of low octane may or may not damage your engine.

[Warren Lake]

The reason I was told to use Vpower was there was no Ethanol in it. Since I was told that things changed and there is 10 percent ethanol in it, at least in winter time.

[Jim Becker]

Your engine has Knock sensors, when you use a cheaper gas your on board engine computer module ECM adjusts the timing to get rid of the low octane knock before you even hear it. You lose performance of course that you would have with the higher octane fuel. Continued use of low octane may or may not damage your engine.
Characterizing 87 octane fuel as "cheaper gas", despite the fact that the cost is lower than higher octane fuels, just promotes the myth that so-called "premium", higher octane fuel is better or provides more power (it does not), etc. The fuel vendors don't help with this in their marketing, either. The higher octane fuel is only better if the tune of the engine can take advantage of it. One should generally use the fuel that provides for the octane requirement that the vehicle manufacturer, but as you note, modern vehicle electronics do adjust timing for fuel characteristics. I believe that in most cases, any risk of damage is minimal unless it's a super high performance engine with very high compression ratios.

For the Grand Cherokee I owned previous to my current Subaru Ascent (and the previous Subaru Ascent), the manufacturer stated in the manual that 89 octane was recommended for best performance with the 5.7L HEMI V8 but that 87 octane fuel was just fine. My current vehicle has a 2.4L Turbo four and run on 87 octane fuel. COBB has done significant testing on the vehicle/engine and determined that there is zero benefit to running higher octane fuel without a custom tune. The additional detergents that are often in "premium" fuel might offer some benefit, especially for someone running hard, but otherwise...the only benefit to buying the "premium" fuel is to the vendor's profits.

This thread really has gotten off the original question and dialog... ;)

[Jim Koepke]

This thread really has gotten off the original question and dialog... ;)

Though it may have stumbled on something less obvious.

There was a comment about high volume stations needing to receive refueling more often than low volume stations.

My thoughts are a station likely doesn't sell as much of the premium grade fuel as regular grade, thus needing fewer visits from the refueling truck. This would then be a factor in the premium grade being stirred up less often.

jtk

[Pat Germain]

The additional detergents that are often in "premium" fuel might offer some benefit, especially for someone running hard, but otherwise...the only benefit to buying the "premium" fuel is to the vendor's profits.

Premium fuel doesn't have any more detergents than regular or midgrade. Decades ago oil companies attempted to cash in on premium gasoline by putting better detergents into it compared to regular and midgrade. The EPA soon intervened and banned that practice. While additives packages, which include detergents, do vary between gasoline brands, there is a minimum required by law to maintain engines.

[Bill George]

Of course higher octane gives you more power in the engines designed to use it, otherwise there would not be different grades of gas. When you use a lower octane fuel in a high performance high compression engine the ECM has to retard the spark to prevent knocking at times and you do not get the rated HP. You may not feel it in the seat of your pants but a dyno will show it. Air craft engines use 100 octane for a reason. Using premium gas in a low compression engine designed to run on 87 octane will not give you more power. Yes 87 is cheaper gas than premium grade and is for a reason. Try pricing aviation gas. There are three grades of gas according to the EPA.

For fun look up Top Tier gas, it goes over and above the Minimum EPA requirements for detergents and other additive's.

[Jay Bryant]

I probably wouldn't give it a second thought if I needed fuel and a tanker was filling the station's tanks. I suppose it's the cautious thing to do, but then if I was worried about stirred up contaminants I should ask them when the last time their tanks were filled. How long does it take the fuel to settle. However, I now refuse to buy gas from a station with a reader board showing a cash price, because around here their unposted credit card price is 10-15 cents/gallon higher.

[Jim Becker]

Of course higher octane gives you more power in the engines designed to use it, otherwise there would not be different grades of gas.
Sorry, but the higher octane simply burns slower to help control pre-ignition. It, in itself, doesn't provide any more "power". But yes, a high compression engine that is designed to have a lot of power can only do what it does when the higher octane fuel is used so that the gas doesn't "explode" too early in the piston cycle for each cylinder. How things get said matter because there truly are a LOT of people that think buying "premium" high octane fuel is going to make their VW Beetle perform like a Lambo. Really. They do.

[Tom M King]

We have a local dirt race track and several stations that sell race gas. I saw some guys putting it into their stock Harleys one day. I knew the guys so asked them why they were buying race gas for those bikes. They said to get more power. I told them the only difference they would see was that it would turn their pipes blue.

[Edward Weber]

These folks do this for a living
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a28565486/honda-cr-v-vs-bmw-m5-ford-f-150-dodge-charger/
"Premium" fuel can make a difference, it's not a black & white issue.
You need to decide for yourself, with your engines and not believe everything you hear.

[Tom M King]

Thanks Edward. That was a good read, and I feel like tells the most accurate story.

[Jim Koepke]

How things get said matter because there truly are a LOT of people that think buying "premium" high octane fuel is going to make their VW Beetle perform like a Lambo. Really. They do.

People will believe what they believe and trying to get them to see it a different way is so often a waste of time.

You can lead them to reality, but you can't make them believe it.

jtk

[Bill George]

Sorry, but the higher octane simply burns slower to help control pre-ignition. It, in itself, doesn't provide any more "power". But yes, a high compression engine that is designed to have a lot of power can only do what it does when the higher octane fuel is used so that the gas doesn't "explode" too early in the piston cycle for each cylinder. How things get said matter because there truly are a LOT of people that think buying "premium" high octane fuel is going to make their VW Beetle perform like a Lambo. Really. They do.

A engine designed to run premium gas does indeed develop more power on premium than on lower octane gas, otherwise why is it on the market and spec’d for those engines? Look at what I posted, I never said putting in a VW would create more power.

[Bill George]

These folks do this for a living
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a28565486/honda-cr-v-vs-bmw-m5-ford-f-150-dodge-charger/
"Premium" fuel can make a difference, it's not a black & white issue.
You need to decide for yourself, with your engines and not believe everything you hear.

So the new cars adapt to different octane gas by means of the ECM changing the ignition timing and perhaps even the variable valve timing and do create more effective HP on higher octane fuel.

[Ronald Blue]

The article shows if you have a BMW M5 then some form of premium is probably required. But it's basically a street legal race car at $130,000. Funny the F150 showed significant differences when fuel was changed to premium. Because they absolutely recommend straight regular for them. So obviously they aren't concerned about knocking. In fact the senior leader for engines from Ford said that in the paragraph at the end.

https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North%20America/US/product/2020/f150/2020-F150-TechSpecs.pdf

Actually when I double checked it says premium recommended but not required for my Corvette. So no issues. If I was going to the race track I'd definitely make sure I was using premium fuel.

[Tom M King]

I thought it was most interesting that the performance of the Honda went down with premium, but got a hair better fuel mileage from it. I guess the computer makes no adjustment to take care of the difference.

[Jim Koepke]

My truck runs on diesel, only one grade of that at most stations.

I have found different varieties and claims at different stations.

Have found stations that carry 100% biodiesel, some with pure fossil diesel and most contain 5-15% biodiesel.

jtk

[Bill George]

Interesting read also about gasoline, so Premium gas is created at the Refinery, not by putting in additives at the station or terminal. It also explains Octane in detail.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/gasoline/

[Jim Becker]

A engine designed to run premium gas does indeed develop more power on premium than on lower octane gas,
Exactly what I said.

[Ronald Blue]

Interesting read also about gasoline, so Premium gas is created at the Refinery, not by putting in additives at the station or terminal. It also explains Octane in detail.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/gasoline/

The way I read it and how I have always understood it is it is all blended at the distribution point. This says the additives are blended at the terminal. From your link.

Petroleum refineries mostly produce gasoline blending components (https://www.eia.gov/tools/glossary/index.php?id=Motor%20gasoline%20blending%20compone nts) called gasoline blendstocks, which require blending with other liquids to make finished motor gasoline. Most finished motor gasoline is produced at blending terminals, where gasoline blendstocks, finished gasoline, and fuel ethanol are blended to produce finished motor gasoline in different grades and formulations.

[Bill George]

The way I read it and how I have always understood it is it is all blended at the distribution point. This says the additives are blended at the terminal. From your link.

Petroleum refineries mostly produce gasoline blending components (https://www.eia.gov/tools/glossary/index.php?id=Motor%20gasoline%20blending%20compone nts) called gasoline blendstocks, which require blending with other liquids to make finished motor gasoline. Most finished motor gasoline is produced at blending terminals, where gasoline blendstocks, finished gasoline, and fuel ethanol are blended to produce finished motor gasoline in different grades and formulations.

Also from that Link and it was hard to find, but refineries produce 3 grades of gasoline regular, premium and aviation grades. The mid grade is made by blending regular and premium and other additives: The octane level of gasoline indicates its resistance to combustion. Gasoline with a higher octane level is less prone to pre-ignition and detonation, also known as engine knocking. Refiners charge more for higher-octane fuel, and premium-grade gasoline is the most expensive.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I donÂ’t drive F1 cars, so will leave the octane debate to those that do…:cool:.

I do know a bit about the distribution infrastructure that may surprise some…. 10 or 6 refineries (say in Corpus Christi) will pump their own batch of fuel into the same pipeline. The pipeline is just about 100% guaranteed to be owned by a pipeline utility, not the refiners. Reasons for the ownership change are myriad, but chief among them is due to utilities being regulated by totally different G-men than the refiners G-men. The shared infrastructure obviously keeps costs down for everyone and, gloriously, reduces the eminent domain cases required by running 10 or 6 parallel pipelines across the country.

That pipeline runs to a terminal in Dallas (for instance, but with likely a myriad of branch lines too). If refiner A puts in 100,000gal, they can sell ‘someones’ 100,000gal to a retailer at the terminal. There is no guarantee that the same physical liquid they put in is what they sell. The fuel that each refiner puts into the pipe must meet an agreed to specification, so it really doesn’t matter who made it. …A bit like electricity in a distribution power line??

In many cases, there can be a spec break (big change) in product going into a pipeline. Often nothing is done: the difference in grade may be small enough that any ‘mixing’ that occurs in transiting the pipeline can be ignored. 100,000Gal of 83octane was chased by 100,000gal of 97octane (octane change being a bad analogy, but you get the idea. Right?). The first 100,000gal goes in 1 receiving tank, and the next 100,000gal goes in another. Perhaps 1000gal was ‘mixed’ and it doesn’t matter what tank it goes in. In some cases, say 83octane gas followed by diesel, the pipeline operator will pump the gasoline, then launch a pig to physically separate the two products and ‘wipe’ the pipeline walls as well… (some small amount of mixing still occurs). But it is all fuel, and as repeatedly alluded to above, nearly any engine can burn it with negligible impact. Pigs are semi-rigid balls or torpedoes that match the pipe’s ID and just get pushed along by the liquid, with launch and recovery mechanisms at each end of the pipe.

Generally, the retailer’s additives are injected into the tank truck’s load out for subsequent delivery to a specific station or chain. But a local ‘name’ retailer CAN sell anyone’s gasoline (and additives) … they simply have to be cognizant of false advertising claims (ala ‘additives’) or getting caught. They license the corporate name, but are none are corporate owned (as mentioned earlier). Again, your friends and neighbors selling what they want for the price they want.

[Bill George]

Malcolm thanks for that information. I was not aware of the "pigs" I thought is was some sort of dye or other marker. I have been working at the Williams Bros Pipeline here in Des Moines and saw those additives being dumped into a tanker truck.

[Ken Combs]

Remember DriGas, Heet, and other additives to prevent gas line freeze up? They were just alcohol, and mixed with the water, prevented freezing and most important, allowed the mix to burn without causing a problem.

Most gas today has 10-15% alcohol already. So water in the gas is almost never an issue, no matter whether the truck delivered it or stirred it up. All the stations in my area have filters in the delivery hose. And then there are the filters in every car/truck gas line.

At one time there were lots of old gas stations with less than stellar tank and pump systems. I am old enough to have worked in a couple of those. And, sold the additives mentioned earlier.


Thankfully those are gone, along with my worry about getting 'bad gas' on a fill up.

[Ronald Blue]

In reference to the "pig" that Malcom mentioned. I drove by this company many times while I was still working.

https://www.plcpigs.com/index.html