All new Table Saws may be flesh sensing soon

[Lisa Starr]

I just ran across this article this morning. I'm not sure I have an opinion, but the Consumer Protection Agency may mandate the technology for all new saws.

Here's the link. if you'd like to read about it: https://www.npr.org/2024/04/02/1241148577/table-saw-injuries-safety-sawstop-cpsc

[Richard Daugird]

I have been hearing about this for a while now. 731 Woodworks has spoke of this and posted clips of the CPA meeting on his Youtube channel.

[Edward Weber]

Thanks, I just read that article as well. I wish there was more detail as to what happens next.
The article seems to think it's as good as a done deal, I'm not so sure about that.
I think it will take years to get passed the legal hurdles yet to come before anything happens at the consumer level.

[mike stenson]

Not again.

[Kent A Bathurst]

10.....9.....8..........

[Edward Weber]

You guys can joke but this could have the effect of mandating other "safety" features that might concern you.

I'm personally not really worried or concerned. I think having AIM or similar tech on new tools is fine. I certainly don't want to see a single company (SawStop) be the sole beneficiary of the ruling.

My main issue is that the blade stop tech doesn't make anyone "safer". it only minimizes the injuries after being unsafe. You can't legislate against unsafe behavior, you'd have to cover the entire world in bubble wrap.

[mike stenson]

I predict this thread will go the same way as it did the last couple times.

There's a used market.

[Patrick Kane]

I think i was in the midst of asking a question in the middle of that thread being shut down. How would this apply to pro shops, has anyone seen an outline of how this would be effectively applied to existing shops? Im not exactly under the impression that OSHA pops into every cabinet and furniture shop in America to make sure they have guards, riving knives, and other protective measures in place. Would they police existing shops at all, or would this simply effect new tool sales?

I used a sawstop in college, and i thought that made a ton of sense in the architectural model shop. Candidly, i wasnt that comfortable around machines 15+ years ago and the training could have been longer/better. I never had a firing event, but nice to have that backing up my utter lack of experience. Fast forward to today and i went with a Felder slider and an old Oliver cabinet saw for my personal shop. This is where my interest lays with this potential ruling and how it would effect professional settings. If current shops have a limited amount of time to ditch non-flesh sensing/camera technology saws, that would be a great thing for me. A glut of 10-20 year old Martin/Altendorf sliders hitting the market would be of great interest to me : )

[John Lanciani]

Pro shops and schools are easy, insurance co. simply says you must have one or you get dropped; OSHA doesn't care until there is an accident.

Home shops are by attrition, it will be decades before all of the non braked saws are gone.

[Ben Ellenberger]

Here is the actual proposal. The rule text is on page 90 of the PDF. It is pretty simple, all table saws manufactured after a certain date would have to meet the new standard. So, this does not look like it sets any standards for existing saws and does not require the replacement of any existing saws.

https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/Federal-Register-Notice-Safety-Standard-Addressing-Blade-Contact-Injuries-on-Table-Saws-SNPR.pdf?VersionId=Ce3FOVBmbG0_.8j.gd1h0k3VWHZZ.UR w.

[Kent A Bathurst]

..........You guys can joke but this could have the effect of mandating other "safety" features...........

I'm not joking. Just starting the countdown until it is nuked.

[Michael Burnside]

Not again.

It is literally the same thread…. I wish you could purge these threads from your own view…

[Roger Feeley]

Growing up, my dad had a table saw. It was probably made in the ‘40s. The cast iron table was maybe 20” square. 8” blade. No throat plate and a really crappy fence and miter gauge. I don’t think that my dad even had a guard. I was scared of it even as a teenager and never once used it.

My current saw is a 3hp SS industrial with a zero clearance throat plate and a Jessem miter gauge. We’ve certainly come a long way. Even without the SS safety system, the difference between my saw and my dads is night and day.

[Frederick Skelly]

Guess I’m the odd man out. I’d love to have a saw with the Bosch AIM system. If this new reg enables that, I’ll bite the bullet for one if it becomes available here and is of comparable quality to the Sawstop. YMMV.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

A table saw injury was part of the demise of a shop that enjoyed working at more than any job I have ever had. The owner of that shop is the first guy I ever heard about these safety saws from. Too Little Too Late. Instead of getting a safety saw he got rid of all of his staff. Every time I see that hot dog I think of several people.

[James Jayko]

My main issue is that the blade stop tech doesn't make anyone "safer". it only minimizes the injuries after being unsafe. You can't legislate against unsafe behavior, you'd have to cover the entire world in bubble wrap.
People are dumb. That isn't going away.

One cuts finger off. One makes decent scratch. But...the one that doesn't amputate the finger is safer. This seems obvious.

[Edward Weber]

People are dumb. That isn't going away.

One cuts finger off. One makes decent scratch. But...the one that doesn't amputate the finger is safer. This seems obvious.



My point is that some will figure out a way to injure themselves regardless of all the safety measures.
It may not be simply cutting a finger.

[mike stenson]

My point is that some will figure out a way to injure themselves regardless of all the safety measures.
It may not be simply cutting a finger.

So let's just abandon any prevention method possible. Got it. 'social darwinism' at it's finest.

[Jimmy Harris]

What I don't get, is why the tool companies would be against it. It's a legitimate excuse to raise the prices of your products. Sure, they'll cost more to make, but the profit margins will increase as the overall costs increase, and you'll get more profit from them. That's exactly why the auto industry no longer makes affordable cars. It's not because they can't. It's because it's more profitable to make more expensive cars. And it's not like they'll cost so much more that it'll have a big impact on sales. I guess it might for the first year or two while customers adjust. But it's not expensive to implement technology. And it's not like table saws are impulse buys for most people. Most people who buy a new table saw do so because they need a new table saw. Not because they were buying 2x4's and saw a table saw at a good price and decided it was too cheap to pass up.

Plus, according to Sawstop, there are 65,000 table saw accidents in the US every year. And the average cost of an amputated finger is over $130,000. Which, I'm guessing, means whatever it costs to implement this new technology into their saws will most likely be offset, and then some, by the reduced number of lawsuits they face. Even if they win every lawsuit brough against the, you're still paying a ton of lawyer's fees to defend yourself against people who probably don't have any assets to recover those fees from after you've won. So it's probably cheaper for them to settle in most instances.

Yeah, I get that no one likes being told what they can and can't do. And by human nature, we tend to have a visceral reaction to that. But perhaps instead of reacting emotionally, the tool companies should slow down and think about this logically over the long term. It benefits them and puts more money into their pockets.

[Rod Sheridan]

That makes sense to me, improving table saw safety on new machines is a good idea.

In my opinion, much of this is brought about by users who remove existing safety devices, or fail to use safe operating methods.

One negative improvement on modern saws has been the change from the multi function rip fence such as the Delta Unifence, or Euro 4 function fence in favour of the Biessemeyer style fence.

That change increased the hazard of ripping solid wood, and narrow strips

Regards, Rod

[Richard Daugird]

I sure don't want to pay extra for it, I just keep my hands out of the blade, just like every other tool in my shop!

[Bill Howatt]

...
In my opinion, much of this is brought about by users who remove existing safety devices, or fail to use safe operating methods.
...
Regards, Rod
I agree and would add to it, "compounded by their naivety that being aware of hazards and their brain will keep them safe".
To paraphrase a comment you posted somewhere, sometime ago, "Just because you've done something unsafe 1000 times without incident doesn't make it safe".

[Richard Coers]

You guys can joke but this could have the effect of mandating other "safety" features that might concern you.

I'm personally not really worried or concerned. I think having AIM or similar tech on new tools is fine. I certainly don't want to see a single company (SawStop) be the sole beneficiary of the ruling.

My main issue is that the blade stop tech doesn't make anyone "safer". it only minimizes the injuries after being unsafe. You can't legislate against unsafe behavior, you'd have to cover the entire world in bubble wrap.
They are joking about the constant posting of this subject and each time it appears it goes for days, even weeks.

[Edward Weber]

They are joking about the constant posting of this subject and each time it appears it goes for days, even weeks.
With repect to all the members, I will say;
This topic will be around for a long time as more details emerge. There are many facets of this decision that are not immediately know, not to mention the unintended consequences.
For those that don't like these safety mandate discussions, there are plenty of other great discussion at SMC to participate in. No need to be grumpy in this thread.

[Kent A Bathurst]

.......... there are plenty of other great discussion at SMC to participate in. No need to be grumpy in this thread...........

Not grumpy. Amused at the frequency with which this topic is resurrected. Each iteration contains a new pretentious spin. I like to tune in - like watching Airplane again, and picking up a new sight gag.

Carry on.

[Lisa Starr]

EXCUSE ME!!!! I did not offer any opinion concerning the technology, only a link to a news article concerning the POSSIBLE requirement for NEW saws sold. Why all the the discord on a site that is supposed to be congenial?

[Warren Lake]

I practice social distancing with my saw blade

[Christian Hawkshaw]

I practice social distancing with my saw blade


That is one way to keep it safe :)

[Rod Sheridan]

I practice social distancing with my saw blade

Haha, good plan Warren.

Regards, Rod

[Rod Sheridan]

I sure don't want to pay extra for it, I just keep my hands out of the blade, just like every other tool in my shop!

Fortunately the choice will be yours, there’s no retrofit provision in the regulations being considered.

Regards, Rod

[Doug Garson]

What I don't get, is why the tool companies would be against it.
Perhaps because it would mandate a technology that two of their competitors already have and they would have to invest perhaps millions of dollars to develop or license so it would negatively impact their profits, at least in the near term.

[Doug Garson]

Fortunately the choice will be yours, there’s no retrofit provision in the regulations being considered.

Regards, Rod
I think it is reasonable to expect, that if the technology is mandated for all new saws sold, it won't be long before it becomes mandatory for commercial shops, schools etc. No reason to expect it will become mandatory for hobby shops. I believe there are already many safety regulations that commercial shops must comply with that don't apply to hobby shops. Doubt if many of our hobby shops would pass a commercial shop inspection.

[Doug Garson]

My main issue is that the blade stop tech doesn't make anyone "safer". it only minimizes the injuries after being unsafe.
Would you say the same about seatbelts, airbags, guardrails on highways, sprinkler systems in buildings? Do they also just "minimize injuries after being unsafe"? I think something that prevents serious injury does make you safer as do safe practices, best if we have or practice both.

[Edward Weber]

Would you say the same about seatbelts, airbags, guardrails on highways, sprinkler systems in buildings? Do they also just "minimize injuries after being unsafe"? I think something that prevents serious injury does make you safer as do safe practices, best if we have or practice both.

These are more questions about human nature
I agree those items reduce injury after the fact, they don't do anything or at least very little that helps prevent the initial need for them. they are insurance for when things go wrong.
They don't always change behavior as you suggest. People still remove guards and safety devices, People with SawStops still manage to trigger them. The act of installing a safety device does not automatically make people behave safely.
My point was that I would prefer to see more emphasis on education so there is less of a need to save people from themselves. Knowing how and why these accidents happen, goes a long way in preventing the behavior that often leads to injuries.

We will see what happens after the ruling and what happens to the numbers of incidents. While they should all be less severe, will the overall number go up, down or remain the same.
Time will tell.

[Ronald Blue]

We will see what happens after the ruling and what happens to the numbers of incidents. While they should all be less severe, will the overall number go up, down or remain the same.
Time will tell.[/QUOTE]

I'm in a SawStop FB owners group of a little over 16k members. While most activation posts are about getting their miter gauge in to the blade, or some unknown reason. It's surprising there is still more then I would expect where they got their hand or finger in the blade. Did it save them? Yes, and while it's true anyone can have an accident. It's also true some people are accidents waiting for a place to happen.

[Bill Howatt]

...
My point was that I would prefer to see more emphasis on education so there is less of a need to save people from themselves. Knowing how and why these accidents happen, goes a long way in preventing the behavior that often leads to injuries.
...
Would it be a 1-day or 2-day course so people learn that taking off the blade guard and splitting mechanism may lead to an injury from the spinning blade or kickback?
I know of, or have seen, a lot of users running saws without this basic safety equipment and these are definitely not newbies who just got a saw and I'm sure they are well aware of the hazard but do it anyway.
I agree that education can be useful for less common causes but there is a lot of information already available explaining those things. So do we mandate a training course before you can take your new saw out of the store? Maybe a table saw operator's license?

[Doug Garson]

Here's a link to James Hamilton AKA Stumpy Nubs on this topic. gives some good insight into the saw industry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxKkuDduYLk

[Edward Weber]

Would it be a 1-day or 2-day course so people learn that taking off the blade guard and splitting mechanism may lead to an injury from the spinning blade or kickback?
I know of, or have seen, a lot of users running saws without this basic safety equipment and these are definitely not newbies who just got a saw and I'm sure they are well aware of the hazard but do it anyway.
I agree that education can be useful for less common causes but there is a lot of information already available explaining those things. So do we mandate a training course before you can take your new saw out of the store? Maybe a table saw operator's license?

The CPSC says it's not within their power to mandate a course or license, it's in the proposed ruling.
This is slightly straying off topic.
There are basically two kinds of safety, passive and active.
A SawStop type system, along with your sprinklers and airbags are passive, they do nothing UNTIL an accident happens.
An Active system is (or should be) engaged the entire time you're using the saw, the guard/kickback device and your brain.
At the end of the day, making all saws flesh sensing, is going to be a positive step in terms of serious injuries avoided.
My concern is that making the saw "safer" and doing nothing to make the operator act safely is lazy and shifts to responsibility. I fear it will no longer be the operator being unsafe and got hurt but rather the saw failed to keep the operator safe and the operator got hurt. The blame is now shifted to the machine.

I am all in favor of having passive systems in the background for the times when things go wrong but too often this is the only area given attention. I would like to see more attention given to the Active portion of the problem, using a saw safely, so that the passive systems are needed as little as possible and complacency is avoided.
https://news.clemson.edu/the-safer-you-feel-the-less-safely-you-might-behave/

[Bill Howatt]

Edward, I tend to agree with your perspective in your last post.
Based on my personal experience (of one!) I do not believe at all I drive faster or more recklessly than I should because of the seat-belts, air bags, etc. I don't even think of them being there.
I don't do unsafe things knowingly on my saw because it has a guard - I'd go as far to say, that the presence of the guard reminds me there is a blade nearby requiring caution -it is much more obvious than a blade 1" above the table.
I don't know how you go about training to make people aware that you always have to be careful if they don't have the common sense to realize it or should I say, act on it. It certainly is not a secret that table saws, for example, can seriously injure.

[Robert Mayer]

Just putting a good riving knife and blade guard can significantly reduce injuries without making tools cost $500+ more. Instead nearly all companies put cheap, crappy stamped steel guards just to remove liability. I got my new Harvey TS a few months ago and I love the riving knife system and overheard dust control/blade guard. It was well designed and actually works.

[Edward Weber]

Edward, I tend to agree with your perspective in your last post.
Based on my personal experience (of one!) I do not believe at all I drive faster or more recklessly than I should because of the seat-belts, air bags, etc. I don't even think of them being there.
I don't do unsafe things knowingly on my saw because it has a guard - I'd go as far to say, that the presence of the guard reminds me there is a blade nearby requiring caution -it is much more obvious than a blade 1" above the table.
I don't know how you go about training to make people aware that you always have to be careful if they don't have the common sense to realize it or should I say, act on it. It certainly is not a secret that table saws, for example, can seriously injure.

Are you trying to tell me that a Tablesaw has a spinning saw blade and I shouldn't touch it? :rolleyes:
Next thing is you'll be telling me is, don't touch the stove or don't stick my finger in the electrical outlet.
A physical guard not only serves as a reminder every time you look at the saw but keeps flying debris contained. I use mine as much as possible.

[Warren Lake]

If you want to touch it do it on the side. Also when its really cold out dont put your tongue on the door.

[Edward Weber]

If you want to touch it do it on the side. Also when its really cold out dont put your tongue on the door.
I double dog dare you

[Terry Therneau]

I watched the James Hamilton video referenced above and agree that it is excellent. I do wonder how this will all fall out, particularly with respect to sliding tablesaws.
I have lost part of a digit (successfully reattached thankfully) from a Unisaw. After a cut was over and I had turned off the saw, as I turned to go my left hand drifted too close. A nearly stopped blade still has more than enough oomph.

[Todd Zucker]

Hopefully that was just a double “hot dog” dare.

[Warren Lake]

so many hot dogs have lost their lives in saw stop demos. Ive touched the side of the blade a few times just to see. Ive been in it as well. What was interesting it felt like a hammer. Lost the nail and part of the finger then it grew back. Cut was parrallel to the finger not a right angle. It grew back. I should have asked mom if we are those lizard people George Norrie used to talk about on coast to coast. For a year or so it hated the cold and for sure dont bump it but its fine now. I stopped sticking my tongue on doors a few years ago though. Maybe after I saw Jeff Daniels do it in dumb and dumber.

[Mel Fulks]

Agree with Warren . You can speak “in tongues” ….but you can’t speak…without a tongue. The Indians, proved that.